Indian Naval Aviation

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Decision will be out by the end of this year.

Rafale or Super Hornet: Indian Navy fast-tracks process of finalising fighter jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/r ... 2022-09-22
22 Sept 2022
“The trial team submitted its report to the Naval headquarters recently after carrying out extensive trials at its Goa-based facility. The evaluation process is at an advanced stage and is expected to be completed very soon,” top government sources told India Today TV.
Sources said once the Navy zeroes in on the choice, it will likely be a government to government deal like the one for getting 36 Rafale jets for the Indian Air Force.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Australian_Navy/sta ... AdXmvR-fOQ ---> Lieutenant Kreeshma Ravikumar is in the Indian Naval Air Arm, supporting air operations at Ex Kakadu onboard a P-8I maritime patrol aircraft. "In my role we plan the mission, brief our crew and pilots and when in the air, I control the weapons."

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by mody »

Some bearking reports suggest a Mig-29K crash in Goa. Pilot ejected and recovered safely. Details still awaited.

The Mig-29K for the Navy are a total disaster. Wonder how the second order for 29 aircrafts was placed after having tried the first batch of 16 aircrafts for a couple of years.

The remaining aircrafts should be converted for use by the airforce and transferred. The IAF would be able to add 2 squadrons of Mig-29 and upgrade them to the latest standard. Increase the order for the F-18/RafaelM to 40 aicrafts from 26. This would allow us to embark 12-16 aircrafts per carrier, till the TEDBF comes along. If both the carriers are not being deployed simultaneously, then the full complement of 24 aircrafts would be available for deployment on either of the carriers.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by AkshaySG »

The Vikramaditya Mig 29k combo is heading from somewhat useless to completely useless

A "carrier" that isn't available most of the year and a fighter with an equally bad servicibility. And if you do manage to get it up in the air then it's crashing 2x a year.

Build a follow up Vikrant and let this combo eek out the rest of 20`s before relagating it to the garbage bin.

If Naval Air Arm requires fighters to keep its pilot skills and tactics honed in then they can either get a squadron of LCA/NLCA to be based in Hansa or go for the lease route in the upcoming MRCB.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

I don’t think IN/GOI has much choice left. One possible choice…

- move mig29k to IAF - scrap the 21 mig 29 IAF order for ever.
- Order 8 NLCA, will prolly have more airtime than 29s
- make it a light air + heli based platform ( nlca + kamovs ) or a complete heli based platform.
- order new raffy/f18 for vikrant
- order follow on vikrant+
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rafale Or Super Hornet, Which Fighter Will The Indian Navy Choose? | Battle Cry With Shiv Aroor

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

Cybaru wrote:I don’t think IN/GOI has much choice left. One possible choice…

- move mig29k to IAF - scrap the 21 mig 29 IAF order for ever.
- Order 8 NLCA, will prolly have more airtime than 29s
- make it a light air + heli based platform ( nlca + kamovs ) or a complete heli based platform.
- order new raffy/f18 for vikrant
- order follow on vikrant+
Or minimise our maritime ambitions
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Or minimise our maritime ambitions
With Vikrant on the scene, that is unlikely to happen.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

DefExpo 2022: Boeing says ‘F/A-18E Super Hornet better than Rafale M’ for Indian Navy
https://www.indiasentinels.com/navy/def ... -navy-5406
19 October 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Boeing’s Maria Laine says F/A-18 to add strategic edge to Indian Navy, to scale up supply chain
https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... n/2734708/
25 Oct 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Vips »

On their final lap, Navy’s prized Winged Stallions set to fly into the sunset.

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On Friday, when Cdr Mrinmoy Ghosh took over as the commanding officer of INAS 315, it marked a significant milestone for the Winged Stallions, the longest-serving, long-range maritime reconnaissance squadron of the Indian Navy.

For 46 years, the Soviet-era Ilyushin 38 aircraft has kept watch over the country’s waters and beyond but the baton is ready to be passed to INAS
316 or the Condors, which fly the Boeing P 8I. The Indian Navy has already started to decommission the Il 38 airframes and indications suggest that
the aircraft will be phased out in a year’s time, which is what makes the change of command even more poignant for Cdr Ghosh.

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INAS 315 was commissioned on October 1, 1977 at INS Hansa with three aircraft. Two more aircraft were inducted later.

Equipped with a search-and-attack radar, a magnetic anomaly detection system and electronic support measures, these aircraft would play hide-and-seek with Pakistani submarines and ships.

Given that the IL-38 could also carry torpedoes, depth charges and anti-ship missiles, the aircraft was a potent weapon platform for the Indian Navy.

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“We trained in the Soviet Union at Riga. All the training was in Russian, for which we had to learn the language in order to be able to fly the aircraft,” said Commodore (retd) R Seshadri Vasan, who was not only part of the commissioning crew of the squadron, but who also went on to serve as a commanding officer of the Winged Stallions.

Powered by four turboprop engines, the aircraft is capable of flying eight to 10-hour missions over the Indian Ocean.

“I happened to be the first commanding officer who was younger than the aircraft itself,” said Cdr (Retd) Jacob Sebastian. “The airframe and the wire looming is as old as the ’70s. You may change the accessories and the instruments, but the metal and the wire looms, which run into kilometres inside the aircraft, are from the ’70s.”

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The IL-38s were used to spot the MV Progress Light, in which the ring leaders of an attempted coup in the Maldives were escaping in 1988. In January 1978, the squadron used the onboard magnetic anomaly detector equipment to successfully locate the wreckage of the ill-fated Air India jumbo that had crashed off the Mumbai coast soon after take-off.

“The integration of information and maritime domain awareness was brought in by the IL-38. Nobody can take away the credit from this aircraft, which is from the Soviet Union time,” said Vasan. “The moment a Pakistani submarine departed Karachi, it was tracked all the time.”

With the Navy HQ giving the green light to draw down the Winged Stallions, three airframes have already been decommissioned. The remaining two will continue to operate till mid-2023 and will then be handed over to museums, say sources.

Karnataka, Gujarat and Goa have offered to convert the airframes into museums.

The squadron has clocked over 50,000 flying hours over the years and with the aircraft still airworthy, Ghosh and his crew know that the counter will keep ticking for another year, if not longer.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/IN_WNC/status/15863 ... pj_Kp10mpg ---> Western Naval Command (WNC) celebrates one year of induction of the #indigenous ALH MK III (MR) at INS Shikra, Mumbai.

https://twitter.com/IN_WNC/status/15863 ... pj_Kp10mpg ---> The helicopter has many maiden achievements to its credit in this period, including night oil rig ops, CFF, SAR and night medevac. Reflecting the Navy's increasing self-reliance, it provides fillip to operational readiness of the Fleet and Command.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/RafaleFan/status/15 ... eHjVeCj9fg ---> Towards a Rafale Marine two-seater? Does the sale of Rafale to the Indian Navy put the project back on the agenda?

Towards a two-seater Rafale Marine?
https://omnirole-rafale.com/vers-un-raf ... e-biplace/
30 Oct 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Why Indian Navy pilots haven’t landed on an aircraft carrier in 2 yrs & won't anytime soon
https://theprint.in/defence/why-indian- ... n/1191050/
02 Nov 2022
While INS Vikramaditya's repair and refit process is delayed, landing on aircraft carrier INS Vikrant will likely take place early 2023. Meanwhile, naval pilots train on a shore-based test facility in Goa.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by bharathp »

doesnt landing NLCA count? or is that "test pilots" and hence technically not navy pilots?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

^^^ Test pilots do not count.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Uhoh :)

Results of the MRCBF contest are due by the end of this year. If Boeing loses the contest, guess this is the excuse they will give. This is the same Boeing that was going to town with the F-18SH’s superior load carrying capability vis-a-viv the Rafale.

https://twitter.com/realairpower1/statu ... Q4C-6yJxTQ —> "The limiting factor is not the jet", it's the aircraft carrier... says Alain Garcia, from @Boeing, on Indian Navy's (IN) ability to operate the F/A-18E/F Block III to its full potential (if the IN selects the jet that is).

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by titash »

Rakesh wrote:Uhoh :)

Results of the MRCBF contest are due by the end of this year. If Boeing loses the contest, guess this is the excuse they will give. This is the same Boeing that was going to town with the F-18SH’s superior load carrying capability vis-a-viv the Rafale.

https://twitter.com/realairpower1/statu ... Q4C-6yJxTQ —> "The limiting factor is not the jet", it's the aircraft carrier... says Alain Garcia, from @Boeing, on Indian Navy's (IN) ability to operate the F/A-18E/F Block III to its full potential (if the IN selects the jet that is).
Admiral-ji,

There’s likely some truth to this

The F-18 is a straight wing fighter with 2 larger engines with good nose angle/speed for carrier landings

The Rafael-M is a canard delta with 2 smaller engines with relatively worse nose angle/speed during landings

It’s more or less very likely that the F-18 can haul around (and bring back) more payload from the carrier. It’s better suited for launch and recovery

The pure air-to-air performance is totally different however. The Rafale is a hot rod and a far superior fighter. The F-18 is not comparable to it which is why the IAF rejected it. The USN air superiority carrier borne aircraft was the swing wing F-14 and its cancelled replacement
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Sirjee, what Alain Garcia is stating above is correct. My issue does not lie with this statement of his, but the marketing push (prior) by Boeing and even him in the past.

What is the point of taking off with all that extra payload & weight, if the arresting gear - Russian in origin - on the Vikrant possibly cannot handle that stress? Reality has likely hit home for Boeing on that point. If the arresting gear was American in origin, this would not be an issue. And for the Indian Navy this could be one of the deciding factors. That is why Alain Garcia is stating that now.

Would the term "A Bad Carpenter Blames His Tools" be apt in this scenario? That remains to be seen. So lets see.

The Rafale M has a lower approach speed vis-a-viv the F-18SH. Both are great aircraft in their respective naval air arms and the F-18SH is any day a better bomb truck than the Rafale M. She carries a heavier payload, has a longer endurance, can carry a wider selection of weaponry, etc. But all of this can be only be fully exploited on a CATOBAR vessel, which INS Vikrant is not.

The STOBAR set up could likely be the F-18SH's Achilles heel.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

MH-60R Romeo in Indian Navy colours :)

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... mQBbDT3QOw --->

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Dassault's advertisement for wishing the Indian Navy a Happy Navy Day for 04 Dec 2022.

https://twitter.com/Dassault_OnAir/stat ... Udb9J4aV5g ---> Rafale for the Indian Navy: Force Multiplier at sea. Celebrating Navy Day.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ashishvikas »

France’s Rafale jets are frontrunner in race for Indian Navy contract
French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation’s Rafale-M has emerged as the frontrunner to bag a mega contract from the Indian Navy for 27 fighters, ThePrint has learnt, leaving behind US firm Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet.
https://theprint.in/defence/frances-raf ... t/1252690/
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

If the above is true, the MRFA contest is over.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Twitter is already reporting the following. Will have to wait for more confirmation. It appears three more squadrons (54 aircraft) for the IAF + 27 for the Navy. Of the 54 aircraft for the IAF, 18 each at Hasimara and Ambala and the last 18 at Gwalior. The base at Gwalior might turn out (my assumption onlee!) to be a joint training base for the IAF and IN with a fleet of twin seater Rafale Bs. Let's see...

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... SEviU2ZJdg ---> Report: India may place an order for 81 Rafale F4s including 27 for Navy.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

^ Has the lifts size issue been sorted?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote:^ Has the lifts size issue been sorted?
from Manu Pubby's article above...
Asked whether the lift size of India’s indigenous aircraft carrier INS Vikrant would be an issue, sources said both aircraft had to be brought up and down at a certain angle. While the wings of Super Hornets fold — unlike the Rafale — these still had to be brought up and down at a certain angle. Both aircraft also have a separate process in which the wings fold.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... oAl5dJ7mOg ---> For those wondering ... the Rafale M can fit onto the elevators of the new Vikrant. Its all about how the jet is positioned. Hope this puts an end to that `controversy!'
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

And the reality is F-18 can take off but not land on Vikrant.
I pointed out this statement hidden away in Huma's article.

viewtopic.php?p=2571057#p2571057

The Carrier admirals were truly admirable. They made sure only the crappy Mig 29s can fly and land on Vikrant.
Not only the lift but the arresting gear was fixed.

And they write op-eds giving advice on Navy Day.
They should thank their stars that they are not in FSU.

Also, note 27 is half of the order that IN wanted (54+3).
So most likely these 27 will be in three squadrons which will be rotated.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

WRT, the arrester gear. If the Russians have supplied the same item that is fitted to their own ship. Then it is designed to handle Su 33. A fighter considerably heavier than the Mig 29.

It should be possible for the ship to handle a heavier fighter as well.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Assuming this news item is true (and that is a big IF), here are some reasons that I believe why the Rafale M ultimately ended up on top;

1) The air boss of the Vikrant had recently mentioned that the MiG-29 was challenging to land on the Vikrant. I was surprised with that statement, because if naval pilots were finding the MiG-29 challenging to land, how were they planning to land the F-18SH? In the Rhino's defence, she has a system onboard called Magic Carpet which permits the computer to manage some of the landing requirements. But the Rhino's size - in relation to the Vikrant - was as important point for the naval evaluators to consider. See these posts;

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&start=2360#p2563702

2) The recent BDL-MBDA announcement of the Astra Mk1 integration on IAF Rafales. This will obviously come on the IN's chosen MRCBF as well. With the integration being done on the Rafale, to pay for the same thing on the F-18SH would have been counter productive. See this post;

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4280#p2567609

3) Admiral Karambir Singh had stated that the Navy would hop on to whatever aircraft the IAF would have chosen in the MRFA. The Rafale was the IAF's only logical choice. Another flag rank officer had doubted whether the Navy could actually afford a stand alone fleet of 27 F-18SHs.

4) The India Specific Enhancements on the IAF's Rafales were a prominent factor in the IN's decision IMVHO. With the billions spent on the ISE, it would have been a financial negative to repeat the same on a stand alone fleet of 27 F-18SHs.

5) The recently announced rethink on the IAC-2. The biggest beneficiary of IAC-2 would have been the F-18SH due to the planned catapult system. But with that program going on the backburner, the chances of the F-18SH were diminished.

6) The wing of the Rafale M - while challenging to transport on the lift - will be advantageous once inside the hangar. You can stack them like samosas. See these pictures below.

Rafale M: https://twitter.com/ukdefjournal/status ... 2060573696

F-18SH: https://www.flickr.com/photos/usnavy/5448819272

7) To me, the most prominent clue of the MRCBF choice was when the Vice Chief of Naval Staff - Vice Admiral Satishkumar Namdeo Ghormade - stated earlier this year, that the MRCBF was only an interim choice and the real deal would be the TEDBF. That term 'interim' - for me anyway - sunk the F-18SH's chances. The Rhino is a beast and a beautiful bomb truck. Once does not look at the F-18SH as interim.

Link ---> https://theprint.in/defence/rafale-or-s ... l/1099609/

8] And Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) gave another clue in a recent Twitter post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7791&start=680#p2571651
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:8] And Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) gave another clue in a recent Twitter post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7791&start=680#p2571651
Image Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/WarplanePorn/c ... and_tedbf/

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Aditya_V »

Again regarding lift and entrance below deck I suspect the Navy has planned some changes on INS Vikrant once the type of 26 aircraft are taken, ship will taken to port, gas cutters, lifts, sliding door etc will go to work.

INS Vikramaditya, nothing can be done...the 40 odd MiG-29K will be used for it.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Aditya_V wrote:Again regarding lift and entrance below deck I suspect the Navy has planned some changes on INS Vikrant once the type of 26 aircraft are taken, ship will taken to port, gas cutters, lifts, sliding door etc will go to work.

INS Vikramaditya, nothing can be done...the 40 odd MiG-29K will be used for it.
This, if doable, does seem the better solution than angling the aircraft, during Ops, especially in choppy seas.

I remember reading about the concerns about time w.r.t blade folding type for the helicopter requirement
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Prem Kumar »

Is the 27 order for Rafale because they will fill the rest with TEDBF? If they place an order now for another Vikrant, it and the TEDBF will be ready around the same time
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:Is the 27 order for Rafale because they will fill the rest with TEDBF? If they place an order now for another Vikrant, it and the TEDBF will be ready around the same time
The 27 order is to have a viable naval fighter. The MiG-29K is not meeting requirements, due to low serviceability.

A follow-on Vikrant will be ready within 10 years (including sea trials + commissioning). The TEDBF will be ready for service in around 10 - 15 years as well. When sufficient numbers of TEDBF are inducted, these 27 Rafale Ms will likely get transferred to the air force.

The 27 order will also be towards the minimum 100 aircraft order, for an assembly factory to be setup in India. That factory will serve as a MROU facility for Indian and foreign Rafale customers (UAE, Indonesia, Egypt, etc) in the future. The Rafale line at Merignac will shift towards the SCAF (France's sixth generation fighter program).

Remember, the 110kN turbofan program that is being headed by Dr Kota Harinarayana and looking to tie up with a foreign vendor? Multiple engine manufacturers are in the fray to power the AMCA Mk2. Safran, GE and Rolls Royce are all vying for that prize. The best path forward for that program is via offsets from a large fighter deal.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Roop »

If (I repeat, IF) this tweet/leak/rumour about Rafale proves true, I will be very happy, of course, but I am still puzzled about the lift issue. All the persistent rumours/mutterings were that Rafale couldn't fit on Vikrant's lift, so how is it suddenly A-okay now? If Vishnu Som is saying, in effect, "no problem, Rafale fits on the lift", it's obviously because he has GoI/IN sources telling him that. So what happened -- how did the problem magically solve itself? I can't possibly be the only Rakshak wondering this.
Rakesh wrote:The base at Gwalior might turn out (my assumption onlee!) to be a joint training base for the IAF and IN with a fleet of twin seater Rafale Bs. Let's see...
It's not just your assumption but mine too. In fact, I think it's the only reasonable way forward, to handle IN training requirements. As you say, let's see...
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Kersi »

Rakesh wrote:Twitter is already reporting the following. Will have to wait for more confirmation. It appears three more squadrons (54 aircraft) for the IAF + 27 for the Navy. Of the 54 aircraft for the IAF, 18 each at Hasimara and Ambala and the last 18 at Gwalior. The base at Gwalior might turn out (my assumption onlee!) to be a joint training base for the IAF and IN with a fleet of twin seater Rafale Bs. Let's see...

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... SEviU2ZJdg ---> Report: India may place an order for 81 Rafale F4s including 27 for Navy.
We already have 2 1/2 sqdns of M2000 at Gwalior. Too many eggs in on basket ???
I would think of putting it elsewhere. Say Gorakhpur.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

We r talking of conversion training. So Ambala or Hasimara.

Carrier qualification for IN will be elsewhere.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Kersi »

ks_sachin wrote:We r talking of conversion training. So Ambala or Hasimara.

Carrier qualification for IN will be elsewhere.
RIGHT.

But the fifth sqdn of Rafale should be elsewhere
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Roop wrote:If (I repeat, IF) this tweet/leak/rumour about Rafale proves true, I will be very happy, of course, but I am still puzzled about the lift issue. All the persistent rumours/mutterings were that Rafale couldn't fit on Vikrant's lift, so how is it suddenly A-okay now? If Vishnu Som is saying, in effect, "no problem, Rafale fits on the lift", it's obviously because he has GoI/IN sources telling him that. So what happened -- how did the problem magically solve itself? I can't possibly be the only Rakshak wondering this.
As per the news piece from Manu Pubby, the aircraft will sit at an angle on the lift. I waiting to see a video of this.
Kersi wrote:We already have 2 1/2 sqdns of M2000 at Gwalior. Too many eggs in on basket ???
I would think of putting it elsewhere. Say Gorakhpur.
To replace the Mirage 2000 fleet which is due for retirement in the early 2030s. By the time follow-on Rafales arrive, the Mirage 2000s should be on their way out.
Kersi wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:We r talking of conversion training. So Ambala or Hasimara.

Carrier qualification for IN will be elsewhere.
RIGHT.

But the fifth sqdn of Rafale should be elsewhere
Carrier qualifications - for Rafale familiarization - will be done on simulators. That is how it is done in the French and US Navies.

Conversion training will be at Hasimara, Ambala or Gwalior.
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