Indian Naval Aviation

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Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:Ka-31 also cancelled along with the Ka-226.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 41187?s=20 ---> In a big push to Make In India initiative, Govt of India cancels multiple deals for purchase of short-range surface-to-air missiles (IGLA) & choppers (Ka-226T).

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 67875?s=20 ---> As well as the Kamov-31 shipborne choppers and Klub class anti-ship missiles, towed artillery guns, SAMs, shipborne UASs, additional P-8I aircraft and MiG-29.
Hmm this makes me a bit suspicious. Done of these are useful, if not necessary. For ex. The mig29s, ka31, and p8s. What are they planning to buy?

More rafale, mh60s, shornets, mkiupg?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:Hmm this makes me a bit suspicious. Done of these are useful, if not necessary. For ex. The mig29s, ka31, and p8s. What are they planning to buy?

More rafale, mh60s, shornets, mkiupg?
The MiG-29s being referred to here are the 21 mothballed airframes sitting in Russia for the IAF. The Russian counter offer appears to be 50 new build Rambhas. The Ka-31 replacement will be interesting to see. I don't know what the replacement platform will be. There is no replacement for the P-8I, but rather the solution will be to complement the 12 examples that are in service. The P-8I will still remain the premier platform. Something like the C-295 will complement the P-8I.

No MiG-29s also likely mean no additional MiG-29K/KUBs either. It will be either Rafale or F-18SH.

Additional MH-60Rs will also come.
Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

I'm guessing we'll see:
US: the sea guardians, possibly/purchased leased shornets for the navy
FRA: 36 rafale + additional M2Ks. Maybe next will fob off 29s to IAF. Hopefully bigger order for Tejas.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

The MTOW limit of 5T for 111 NUH will go and 5.8 T Naval Dhruv will be the choice.
Additional 25 ASW version(6 are on order) of Naval Dhruv to complement 24 MH60R till ASW Naval IMRH arrives.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ldev »

I would assume that a review of the additional 6 P-8s purchase options (beyond the 12 already in service) is a budget constraint issue specially considering that the purchase of 30 MQ-9B drones is most likely to go through (10 for the Navy). So the IN will have 22 long range maritime patrol and ASW platforms, without ordering the 6 additional P-8s. One just hopes that the IN has done a proper forecast of future requirements, otherwise it will another tale like the IAF C-17s where purchase options were not exercised before production ended.

As far as I remember, C-295 conversion to a maritime patrol role was/is a DRDO proposal for 6 of the C-295s to be fitted with reconnaissance equipment for the Coast Guard.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by John »

Cain Marko wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Ka-31 also cancelled along with the Ka-226.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 41187?s=20 ---> In a big push to Make In India initiative, Govt of India cancels multiple deals for purchase of short-range surface-to-air missiles (IGLA) & choppers (Ka-226T).

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... 67875?s=20 ---> As well as the Kamov-31 shipborne choppers and Klub class anti-ship missiles, towed artillery guns, SAMs, shipborne UASs, additional P-8I aircraft and MiG-29.
Hmm this makes me a bit suspicious. Done of these are useful, if not necessary. For ex. The mig29s, ka31, and p8s. What are they planning to buy?

More rafale, mh60s, shornets, mkiupg?
At this point people are just naming out some platforms with no real source ..
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

X-Post from the the Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021 thread....
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Rakesh wrote:By the way, that deal for those 21 MiG-29s lying mothballed in Russia? Not happening.

That is why at the Putin-Modi summit, the Russians reportedly offered up to 50 new build Su-30MKI "Rambhas". Also keeping money aside for a small batch of additional Rafales or another MRFA (I hope not!).

Cybaru, if you are reading this.... :mrgreen:

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 01696?s=20 ---> The Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) has scrapped multiple tenders of various defence acquisitions. Very Short Range ADS, towed artillery guns, surface-to-air missiles, shipborne UAS, additional P-8I MPA and MiG-29 combat aircraft.
Removal of Mig-29 and arty systems is pretty good! The ATAGS parallel trial maybe signaling a buy!

P8-I is a bit of a setback unless we think 18 is enough and we are adding 8-12 C295 MPAs to Navy and a similar number go CG. I think IN should transfer all 12 Dorniers to CG as well.

10 UAVs for Navy are also on the card for ASuW work.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Ka 31 chopper substitute could be the Mh60 fitted with the Uttam or its evolutionary successors as a CrowsNest radar. Or navy IMRH varient fitted with same radar

PS: does the Rustam II generate sufficient electrical power to host Uttam or its evolutionary successors.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

X-Post from the the Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021 thread....
----------------------------------------
Cybaru wrote:Removal of Mig-29 and arty systems is pretty good! The ATAGS parallel trial maybe signaling a buy!

P8-I is a bit of a setback unless we think 18 is enough and we are adding 8-12 C295 MPAs to Navy and a similar number go CG. I think IN should transfer all 12 Dorniers to CG as well.

10 UAVs for Navy are also on the card for ASuW work.
There are only 12 confirmed P-8Is to date. Six more were on order, but is likely put on hold. Will have to wait for confirmation.

If the C-295 arrives as the MPA, then this platform will complement the P-8I. The P-8I will still remain the premier MPA for the Indian Navy.

If the MiG-29s are being cancelled, that explains why the Russians offered 50 Su-30MKIs instead.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

X-Post from the the Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021 thread....
----------------------------------------
You are right Rakesh! The 6 still needs clearance from PM for the order to make it. Perhaps they are thinking with the 10 UAVs and possibly C295W-MPA, we don't need more assets? I think Sats (8-10 small sats in LEO) and UAVs will help quite a bit in the future as well.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by YashG »

X-Post from the the Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021 thread....
----------------------------------------
So the MQ9 drone deal is still there ? At $100M a piece, I cold never convince myself. But between P8i & MQ9 - It is P8i capability that is less achievable domestically. Plus drones will always be needed in higher numbers. So 10 UAVs will never really cut it.

Better to increase numbers of existing types, than adding new types.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Cybaru wrote:You are right Rakesh! The 6 still needs clearance from PM for the order to make it. Perhaps they are thinking with the 10 UAVs and possibly C295W-MPA, we don't need more assets? I think Sats (8-10 small sats in LEO) and UAVs will help quite a bit in the future as well.
The six were waiting clearance from the US Congress, the last I read. But that is long past. I don't know what the hold up is. Here is the news bit. Check out that second quoted para. Not all US origin platforms will have encrypted equipment :) The six should come + the 10 drones. The C-295 will complement the P-8I, assuming such a deal is signed in the future. That does seem likely with the C-295 deal. That 56 order is just the tip of the iceberg IMVHO for the C-295. Additional MH-60Rs will also come. The 24 is not enough for the IN's surface combatants. The actual requirement was for 44 airframes, but was reduced to 24 perhaps for budgetary reasons. I hope the additional 20 (or even 24) are ordered.

U.S. clears sale of six P-8I patrol aircraft to India
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 455535.ece
01 May 2021
The possible sale comes through the Foreign Military Sale route and requires that the U.S. Congress be notified, a process that was completed on Friday. Lawmakers have a statutory 30 days to raise any objections.
With India having signed the Communications Compatibility and Security Agreement (COMCASA) foundational agreement with the U.S., the six aircraft will come fitted with encrypted systems, as reported by The Hindu earlier. These systems were replaced with commercial off-the-shelf systems in the earlier deals.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by brar_w »

Congressional clearance isn't given but assumed unless an objection is filed, and upheld via a vote (very rarely are any objections strong enough or upheld as those cases usually don't make it into a notification as it is embarrassing for a government to approve of a potential sale only to have Congress block it so they usually don't sign off on controversial sales unless they have high degree of certainty that they have enough votes in Congress to overcome any member objections). Approval to sell is just a starting point and in this case (already cleared type) is merely a formality. After that happens, individual elements of the program are negotiated depending on the contract structure. For FMS cases, the program office concerned (The P-8 JPO in this case) will work with the Indian MOD if the MOD is still interested in pursuing this further. If so, then the JPO will place additional orders to the existing US Navy annual contracts for the P-8. There are many FMS cases that are approved but that never make it past the approval because the deal never happens either because the FMS approval was part of a sovereign submission for a competition (which they didn't win) or because the buyer is no longer interested in pursuing the deal further. The operationally relevant data-point isn't FMS approval but an actual contract award. This also applies to the size of the deal. Prices mentioned in the FMS case have little relation to the actual contract as they are merely a reflection of state department estimates of the entire package that was submitted. Often, the actual negotiated contract varies drastically from what was approved (they usually tend to seek approval for more things then they actually contract for).
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Thanks brar.

========================

Beautiful lines of the MiG-29K from No 303 Black Panthers Squadron. Drag & Drop picture into new window for full size.

https://twitter.com/teaselstudio1/statu ... 12899?s=20 --->

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by konaseema »

Other than the lines, this aircraft has turned to be a dud for Indian Navy. Can someone list the various issues associated with Mig-29K's?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Twitter buzz has already started on the C-295 MPA complimenting the P-8I MPA.

https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/14 ... 24064?s=20 ---> Our homegrown sensor suite has been found to be very capable (SAR/GMTI and MAD). The C-295 based MPA was initially envisaged for the CG but as it took shape, the IN found it to a potential replacement for the P-8I.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 46050?s=20 ---> Makes ample sense. We've advanced by leaps and bounds and the sensor suite on the homegrown C-295 will be derived from the Tejas (radar) and Netra programs (ESM, sensor fusion, plus management) plus additional items like long range EO sensors and the Navy's new datalink.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

First tweet below is from Group Captain HV Thakur (retd) - former Jaguar pilot and currently test pilot for HAL.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf_/status/1483 ... 00195?s=20 ---> Maritime Patrol aircraft have served the Indian Navy for long. High Altitude Pseudo Satellites (HAPS) may take on the task within the foreseeable future. #CATS-Infinity.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 29956?s=20 ---> Duties of these aircraft (MPA) will be performed by Indigenous High Altitude Psuedo satellite CATS Infinity in future.

https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/14 ... 07874?s=20 ---> CATS Infinity.

» Infinity is a solar powered pseudo-satellite which will provide data link connectivity & surveillance capabilities.
» It will fly up to 65,000 feet for 90 days.

» Recently Indian Navy signed MOU with NewSpace Research and Technologies for CATS Infinity.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Apologies for the poor picture qualities.

A possible MPA aircraft (based on the C-295) to complement the Indian Navy's current MPA capability.


https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 00321?s=20 ---> DRDO X-Band AESA Radar for Maritime Patrol Aircraft. Operates in Air-to-Air, Air-to-Sea, Moving Target Indicator, Synthetic Aperture Radar and range signature modes.

Image

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 93411?s=20 ---> DRDO maritime aircraft. Integrated mission data management system already developed. Many technologies already developed and integration with aircraft is remaining. Possibly few other technologies and testing of sensors are pending. AI-Based EW/ESM systems for both AWACS & MPA are under development.

Image

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 89185?s=20 ---> Long Range EO IR system for Maritime Surveillance. EO IR Avenger S50 developed by DRDO/Tonbo Imaging. It has MWIR thermal imager, HD camera, SWIR, Laser Range Finder and Laser Pointer. It can be used in air platforms and ship's also can use RWS systems.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by venkat_kv »

Rakesh wrote:Twitter buzz has already started on the C-295 MPA complimenting the P-8I MPA.

https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/14 ... 24064?s=20 ---> Our homegrown sensor suite has been found to be very capable (SAR/GMTI and MAD). The C-295 based MPA was initially envisaged for the CG but as it took shape, the IN found it to a potential replacement for the P-8I.

https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 46050?s=20 ---> Makes ample sense. We've advanced by leaps and bounds and the sensor suite on the homegrown C-295 will be derived from the Tejas (radar) and Netra programs (ESM, sensor fusion, plus management) plus additional items like long range EO sensors and the Navy's new datalink.
Pardon my question if you will Rakesh Saar,
My thought was that P-8I helps with patrolling and also for "submarine detection". Does the C-295 sensor suite allow for the same? Also, the above tweets about using Tejas radar and Netra development to detect underwater submarines doesn't hold water right?

If the C-295 is used only for general patrolling and sea surface detection of ships, shouldn't the P8-I also be pursued, since the chinese will come with submarines as the biggest threat in the Indian Ocean and the current number of P8-I's will be used for submarine detection and subsequently also need to use for patrolling at the same time.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by YashG »

P8 also has magnetic anomaly detector. Are we building that piece indigenously?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by asbchakri »

Also the P-8 comes with 11 hard points for armaments of various weapons, will the C-295 also be fitted for the same, may not be 11 but a smaller number?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

YashG wrote:P8 also has magnetic anomaly detector. Are we building that piece indigenously?
The Indian P8 is equipped with the same MAD which was fitted to the S3 Viking.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/148 ... 48289?s=20 ---> MH-60R (Serial # IN-751) of the Indian Navy.

Image
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

venkat_kv wrote:Pardon my question if you will Rakesh Saar,
My thought was that P-8I helps with patrolling and also for "submarine detection". Does the C-295 sensor suite allow for the same? Also, the above tweets about using Tejas radar and Netra development to detect underwater submarines doesn't hold water right?

If the C-295 is used only for general patrolling and sea surface detection of ships, shouldn't the P8-I also be pursued, since the chinese will come with submarines as the biggest threat in the Indian Ocean and the current number of P8-I's will be used for submarine detection and subsequently also need to use for patrolling at the same time.
No Saar please :)

The C-295 will not replace the P-8I in the anti-submarine role. It will only compliment the P-8I in some of its missions. See this article below.

IMVHO, the six additional P-8Is should be acquired, despite the cost. Another order of MH-60R helicopters + Predator drones would be nice as well. The 24 Romeos the IN has ordered is not enough for all the surface combatants + Vikrant & Vikramaditya.

DRDO lab prepares blueprint to convert six C-295 aircraft for use by Indian Coast Guard
https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... d-7532767/
25 September 2021
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... uz27MxPTVg ---> The indigenous HAL Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) Mk.III aircraft was formally inducted at INS Utkrosh by C-in-C, Lt Gen Ajai Singh at Port Blair on January 28, 2022; the helo ceremonially welcomed into ANC with a traditional water cannon salute.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... uz27MxPTVg ---> HAL's ALH Mk.III with its glass cockpit, Shakti engines, advanced Maritime Patrol Radar, electro–optical payload and night vision device will act as a "force multiplier in keeping India’s far eastern seaboard and Island territories safe."

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... uz27MxPTVg ---> Induction Ceremony of ALH-Dhruv Mk.III at INS Utkrosh, Port Blair in presence of chief guest Commander-in-Chief, Andaman Nicobar Command, Lt. Gen. Ajai Singh. Two ALH Mk.III helicopters added to the fleet of the Andaman Nicobar Command.

Video of the Event ---> https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/148 ... uz27MxPTVg

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

What is the range of this advanced Maritime Patrol Radar? Evolution of the XV2004?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

Trying to answer my own question.

https://militaryleak.com/2021/05/01/ind ... abilities/

16 on order
Dhruv Mk III MR is equipped with the modern surveillance radar that can detect and identify ships and boats up to a range of 120 nautical miles to enable the Indian Coast Guard in its duty to secure the nation from threats. Coupled with an electro-optical sensor that can closely monitor even the smallest of the vessels at distances as far as 30 nautical miles.
Is the Nautical miles right? Seems quite powerful.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

Of this 16 nos Dhruv 6 nos are asw version. Will complement 24 MH 60 R.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

6 ASW for CG? They do ASW ops as well?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

Total are 32 naval Dhruvs on order. 16 each to IN and CG.
For IN 6 of 16 is ASW version. In future more of ASW version can be expected to complement 24 MH 60 R.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cyrano »

Awesome ! Will keep PLAN nervous about entering Malacca strait.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Barath »

Rakesh wrote:. Another order of MH-60R helicopters + Predator drones would be nice as well. The 24 Romeos the IN has ordered is not enough for all the surface combatants + Vikrant & Vikramaditya.
They were never supposed to be enough. 123 NMRH was part of the plan, along with the 24 urgent stopgap G2G buy.

Instead of another stopgap, why not bite the bullet and expedite the NMRH ? Sure it will take longer, but you will have a clear industry bootsrapped and your full requirement met. The cost is that you limp along with 24 mh60r, + dhruv etc for a few years. (5?)

123 nmrh includes choppers for each combatant + additional land based choppers for navy. And you only push through one procurement case, instead of one (2nd stopgap G2G) + one business case deficient partial nmrh later

------

Another option is to have a secondary buy of another 24 , live with the shortfall until imrh comes along and scrap nmrh altogether.

The problem is that imrh will take longer and does not have naval needs or nmrh/asw needs in, so adding another variant to that will complicate and extend and stretch hal resources (imrh currently is mil replacement). The navy will dislike being dependent on hal and may not go for this option
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

Total medium helicopter for IN was planned to be 123 NMRH + 24 MH60R=147 nos according to vayu aerospace article.
Of which ASW 66 NMRH+24 MH60R=90 nos.

Now 41 nos ASW version of naval IMRH +19 commando naval IMRH= 60 nos planned.

It leaves a deficit of 25 ASW Helis +14 commando Helis= 39 to be fullfilled by naval Dhruv / MH60R/S.

I expect 25 ASW version of naval Dhruv (6 nos on order) to complement 24 MH60R.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... ndHEQ8SfZA ---> Mark 11 Mod 3 depth charge being mounted on an Indian Navy Sea King helicopter.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/amanroutray7/status ... Lsdj28l_Lg ---> Indian Navy and Air India Engineering Services Ltd to sign an Annual Contract for Ground Support equipment services for supporting P-8I aircraft operations at Pan India locations as and when required.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

The 12th (and perhaps final) P-8I is on her way to India! Click on link below for video.

https://twitter.com/Boeing_In/status/14 ... VTfh1wtqHg ---> Another P-8I! The Indian Navy's 12th and latest P-8I takes off to join India's growing P-8 fleet.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

Rakesh wrote:The 12th (and perhaps final) P-8I is on her way to India! Click on link below for video.

https://twitter.com/Boeing_In/status/14 ... VTfh1wtqHg ---> Another P-8I! The Indian Navy's 12th and latest P-8I takes off to join India's growing P-8 fleet.
Augment with 12-18 C295W MPAs for CG and IN.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

First batch of 3 MH-60R Multi-Role Helicopters to arrive in mid-July
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 065395.ece
19 Feb 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Roop »

Does anyone know the dates/durations of the trials for proving the ability of F-18E/F to take-off/land on the SBTF in Goa?

Also, any news about how Rafale trials went?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Roop wrote:Does anyone know the dates/durations of the trials for proving the ability of F-18E/F to take-off/land on the SBTF in Goa?

Also, any news about how Rafale trials went?
Supposed to come this month. Might be delayed due to the situation in Ukraine, but that is my guess. But it will be still on. I would be surprised if the F-18 did not come for the trials. That would make no sense whatsoever. The next 2+2 meet is in April and is expected to feature discussions on how to further strengthen the Indo-US defence relationship. The F-18 (and the MRFA contest) will be part of that discussion. There is a big push from the GOTUS to adopt the F-21. That decision lies in the hands of the IAF and not the GOI.

The Rafale trials went well from all media reports to date. There are photographs - in the Vikrant thread - of a Rafale M (with Mica missiles + one Exocet) taking off from the SBTF in Goa. So while the Rafale M took off, I doubt photographs are a yardstick to measure success or failure of operating from a ski jump with such a payload. The real data will be in the hands of the Indian Navy and Dassault and neither will share the data of these trials, due to the ongoing competition. When the F-18 completes her trials, the same rules will apply. Those details will likely never be made public, even after the final decision is announced to both companies.

Once the F-18 trials are over, then it will be left up to to the Indian Navy to decide which is the better platform of the two. Cost will be just one of many factors that will come into play in the final decision. If there is a push for a MROU facility from the Indian side - as was reported in the media recently - for the Rafale, then that will be a significant advantage for Dassault. To paraphrase a line from Saab's marketing team ---> a combat aircraft is only useful, when she is in the air. A facility of that nature will be a game changer. No point in any fighter (as the Navy's current MiG-29K/KUB fleet is illustrating) if she will only be a hangar queen.

Lockheed Martin is pushing for a similar MROU facility with the F-21 for the IAF. That facility will also service the global F-16 fleet. Pakistan will obviously be the outlier and will continue to be serviced from the US and perhaps Turkey, as the latter was involved in the upgrade of their early model F-16 fleet. Boeing will also offer something similar if it wins the Navy contest and the IAF contest (with their F-15EX). Interesting times ahead.
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