Indian Naval Aviation

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Cybaru
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

ramana wrote:Boeing thinks this will get more P8I orders. That boat has sailed.
What caused the ship to sail? I would think IN could still use another 4 P8Is. Although C295s will pick up work share.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by yensoy »

I thought Boeing already had a civilian MRO facility in Nagpur, which is coincidentally the HQ of IAF maintenance command. It would make most sense to do the airframe/engine maintenance there - possibly in a separate hangar, and electronics work in Hosur or wherever else (if not in Nagpur itself).
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by RishiChatterjee »

The cutie is finally taking shape after months of halts, delays, readjustments... & she's gorgeous!
@Kuntal's work

NLCA (Trainer)
LIFT (Export)
Tejas-MAX (CATS Mothership)
Surya Kiran (livery)... sab hoyenga.

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Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

A new gem from Shukla. This is a new low, even for him....

India could buy Rafales for aircraft carrier, though twin-seat variant not for carrier operations
https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/05/indi ... craft.html
16 May 2022
In contrast to the twin-seat Super Hornet, the twin-seat Rafale Marine cannot operate off an aircraft carrier. Many Indian acquisition officials argue that this should disqualify the twin-seat Rafale from the MRCBF tender. “Eight of the 26 Rafale fighters being bought can operate from land bases only. It is hard to understand why the Navy would buy jets that cannot operate off a carrier,” said an Indian procurement official. But sources say the Indian Navy has decided that the twin-seat Rafale will not be disqualified on the basis of its inability to operate from a carrier.
The French Navy effectively operates Rafale Ms from the Charles De Gaulle. They do not have any twin seater Rafale Ms. That point has been made quite effectively to the Indian Navy.
In contrast, the Rafale’s wings are not foldable. Parts must be removed – such as nose cone :?: and wing tips – to move it from one deck to another. Like the Super Hornet, other platforms and aviation systems that operate off a US carrier are designed from ground-up to function as part of a carrier-based system. For example, the electronic attack variant of the Super Hornet, called the F/A-18G Growler, are designed to accompany the Super Hornets on strike missions, jamming enemy radar and electronic defences. :lol:
Has someone reminded him that we will not be allowed anywhere near the Growler, even when she is parked on the tarmac? :lol:
US Navy aircraft carrier groups also have an airborne early warning capability in their air wings, for which each carrier embarks three-four E-2D Hawkeye aircraft. The Indian Navy is weighing having this capability.
Is he aware that the E2-D Hawkeye will not be able to take off from a STOBAR vessel like the Vikrant?

In the absence of this, where is he expecting this aircraft to take off from?
New acquisition process

The method chosen for selecting the MRCBF is different from the Indian MoD’s standard procurement process and will reduce the time taken for evaluating, selecting and contracting for the aircraft.

The process began with the navy issuing a request for Information (RFI), to which Boeing and Dassault responded. Then both aircraft – the Super Hornet and the Rafale Marine – carried out an operational demonstration in the navy’s “shore-based test facility” (SBTF) in Goa to demonstrate their aircraft’s compatibility with a ski jump and other carrier systems.

Now both firms will submit a final letter of Price & Availability (P&A) and Indian officials will make a decision based on that. Indian Navy pilots will not fly the aircraft. Instead, the Indian MoD will evaluate the operational demonstration and prepare a technical evaluation report, based on that.

Boeing complains that the RFI is based on the lowest common denominator, in which the lowest priced aircraft is chosen rather than the most capable one. With only two competitors in the fray, the Indian Navy wants to keep both of them in consideration to avoid a single-vendor competition. That keeps the navy writing and adjusting requirements to keep both competitors in.
Is he not aware that the F-18 is the lower priced aircraft between the two? How will the unit cost of a F-18 be more expensive than the Rafale M? On what basis is he stating that Boeing is complaining?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

India halts Ka-31 helicopter deal with Russia
https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... th-russia/
16 May 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

Rakesh wrote:....
Hmm, perhaps we should not be too dismissive of Snivelling Shooklaw, Admiralji. I think he has some sources and bats for the US lobby. My guess is that they will pitch something big - that allows for E2D+Shornet. Navy has been hankering for a third CV (a big one) just as the IAF has been in heat for the Rafilly. Put into mix the MilAid package, which might get much bigger and the IN will soon be in the embrace of the world's largest MIC.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

We should have started out by fixing these lobbies and vested interests. Then talked about indigenisation. Now we have allowed saboteurs to worm their way into the bosom of Atmanirbhar.

Yikes….
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Cain Marko wrote:Hmm, perhaps we should not be too dismissive of Snivelling Shooklaw, Admiralji. I think he has some sources and bats for the US lobby. My guess is that they will pitch something big - that allows for E2D+Shornet. Navy has been hankering for a third CV (a big one) just as the IAF has been in heat for the Rafilly. Put into mix the MilAid package, which might get much bigger and the IN will soon be in the embrace of the world's largest MIC.
Shukla is talking through his hat.

Where is the third CV going to come from Cain-ji? The last two non-nuclear powered US aircraft carriers (the Kitty Hawk and John F Kennedy) were sold to the International Shipbreaking Limited for 1 cent each. The other ones due for retirement are all nuclear powered vessels. We are not getting those. Visit this link ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... tates_Navy

The US Navy sold 2 obsolete aircraft carriers to scrap dealers for a cent each
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-sell ... ch-2021-10
06 Oct 2021

In the absence of a catapult-launched aircraft carrier, the E-2D Advanced Hawkeye will not be effective. Even the Royal Navy's QE Class do not operate the E-2D for this reason. Forget launching her from a STOBAR vessel. While tests were done in a controlled environment and while doable, it is not practical. Apart from the US Navy, only the French Navy's CDG and the second (upcoming) French aircraft carrier operate the E-2.

That leaves just the Super Hornet as a sole offering. But the Rhino has tremendous advantages over the Rafale M, but can the Navy afford a stand alone fleet of 26 (and later another 31 airframes) Rhinos? This would have made sense if the IAF adopted the Rhino as well, but they don't want to touch that bird with a barge pole. Even Boeing knows this and that is why they are offering the F-15EX in place of the F-18SH. So if the Rhino wins the navy contest, then the F-15EX will likely come as a package deal. And the F-15EX will trump whatever the Rafale can bring to the table. She is a hot rod. She will win the IAF's stringent technical requirements in the 114 MRFA deal. But there is the problem of the F-15EX's OPEX and the 265 Rambha fleet.

And the GOI is not going to deal with two OEMs, when one OEM can fulfill both services' requirements. That has been made clear to both the IAF and the IN. The pair of F-18s are arriving on May 21st and testing will commence on May 23rd.

Indian Navy to test US F-18 fighters for INS Vikrant next week
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 24651.html
18 May 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:We should have started out by fixing these lobbies and vested interests. Then talked about indigenisation. Now we have allowed saboteurs to worm their way into the bosom of Atmanirbhar.

Yikes….
Amen to that.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote: Is he aware that the E2-D Hawkeye will not be able to take off from a STOBAR vessel like the Vikrant?

In the absence of this, where is he expecting this aircraft to take off from?
E-2D can operate from STOBAR I believe it is already been tested for ski jump operations but overall max takeoff weight is limited so it reduces its range. Chinese ironically do have E-2 clone operating from their carrier.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

It has been tested, but it was severely limited in capability. It will have to go for an in-flight refueling soon after take off. So the navy will have to have tankers on standby, whenever the E-2 gets ready to deploy from INS Vikrant and INS Vikramaditya.

If the vessel is somewhere deep in the Indian Ocean, how practical is this? And in a theatre of conflict, even more dangerous.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:It has been tested, but it was severely limited in capability. It will have to go for an in-flight refueling soon after take off. So the navy will have to have tankers on standby, whenever the E-2 gets ready to deploy.

If the vessel is somewhere deep in the Indian Ocean, how practical is this? And in a theatre of conflict, even more dangerous.
If I remember it does reduce range may be along the lines 10-20% so it can still perform it's missions. Also looks it can barely fit into the lifts.

https://inf.news/en/military/1ef4813674 ... c35d1.html
The test results of the United States show that the E-2C 2000 Hawkeye early warning aircraft uses a 12-degree ski jump deck, and when the deck wind is 25 knots, the total length of the simulated runway is 165 meters . The Hawkeye early warning aircraft can take off with a take-off weight of 24.948 tons , and the aircraft takes off completely. The process complies with the U.S. Navy's takeoff standards.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

John wrote:If I remember it does reduce range may be along the lines 10-20% so it can still perform it's missions. Also looks it can barely fit into the lifts.
John, a 10 - 20% reduction is not true. See this old, but still relevant, article. And this is from the horse's mouth (the Indian Navy)...

The Tale of the Indian Navy and the E-2 Hawkeye 2000
https://www.livefistdefence.com/tale-of ... 2-hawkeye/
15 March 2007
But on March 23, 2005, I spoke to Vice Admiral Bedi. He indicated that after weighing the pros and cons of the Hawkeye, the Navy had decided not to pursue its interest in the aircraft. He said, “First of all, the Hawkeye is too big. In light conditions, the endurance of the aircraft goes down from five to just one hour. And for an early warning aircraft to have the capability of staying for only one hour makes no sense. We have decided not to consider the Hawkeye. There are other reasons for not taking up the Hawkeye offer. In a full take-off, a single engine failure could be disastrous,” Bedi said.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by John »

Yea the two sources seem to conflict US navy tests say 2000 lb reduction in load and I can't see Chinese flying their clone if their endurance is just 1 hour. I think bigger problem is lack of deck space more than endurance to be honest. That said we should look at UAVs to provide AEW, a quad/octo copter design would be ideal IMO.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

John, the Chinese will fly it and many (not you!) will dhoti shiver on BRF as a result of it.

One hour for the Chinese is equivalent to seven "human" hours for the rest of humanity :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

John wrote:Yea the two sources seem to conflict US navy tests say 2000 lb reduction in load and I can't see Chinese flying their clone if their endurance is just 1 hour. I think bigger problem is lack of deck space more than endurance to be honest. That said we should look at UAVs to provide AEW, a quad/octo copter design would be ideal IMO.
Don;'t let Brar see this post! :lol: we had a 5 page back and forth year and half ago...
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

Cybaru wrote:
John wrote:Yea the two sources seem to conflict US navy tests say 2000 lb reduction in load and I can't see Chinese flying their clone if their endurance is just 1 hour. I think bigger problem is lack of deck space more than endurance to be honest. That said we should look at UAVs to provide AEW, a quad/octo copter design would be ideal IMO.
Don't let Brar see this post! :lol: we had a 5 page back and forth year and half ago...
No fear of that. Brar has left.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/152 ... LfPysa5gjQ ---> Defence Minister Rajnath Singh on board an Indian Navy P-8I sortie from Mumbai today.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

Minister ji is doing Kadi Ninda of all those blips on the screen...
Be warned hell hath no fury like Kadi Ninda!!
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cybaru »

ks_sachin wrote:
Cybaru wrote: Don't let Brar see this post! :lol: we had a 5 page back and forth year and half ago...
No fear of that. Brar has left.
Whaaat, why? He was fun to debate and he was quite knowledgeable..
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

Cybaru wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: No fear of that. Brar has left.
Whaaat, why? He was fun to debate and he was quite knowledgeable..
Ramana.....
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

ks_sachin wrote:
Cybaru wrote:Whaaat, why? He was fun to debate and he was quite knowledgeable..
Ramana.....
Its his choice. No one banned his account.
And yes I did admonish him after a long rope.
We give too long a rope on this forum to many folks who abuse it.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, Shukla is telling us information.
RafaleM is a no-go.
In contrast, the Rafale’s wings are not foldable. Parts must be removed – such as nose cone :?: and wing tips – to move it from one deck to another.
And F-18 is a single vendor.
So that charade is to have Rafale M as shore-based a/c to prevent a single vendor.
No one should be blamed except the naval aviation admirals who ensured the aircraft lift is sized small.
This reduces options for aircraft.
By 2010 the Navy knew they needed bigger lifts yet they did nothing to ensure that.

And not the insistence on twin-engine which only Mig-29s have.
All these years Navy was quite happy operating single-engine aircraft.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Shukla is telling us information.
RafaleM is a no-go.
All indications indeed point to that scenario onlee. As I mentioned to Cain Marko, this contest is for Boeing to lose. I would be surprised if the Navy actually selected the Rafale M over the F-18. Where it might sink Boeing's chances, is whether the Navy can afford a stand alone fleet of 26 F-18s. In order for that to happen, the Navy will have to sacrifice other pet projects.

It is just that Shuka's claims are absurd.

1) The deployment of the E-2D Hawkeye and as per him, the IN is weighing having this capability. She cannot be deployed on the Vikrant. Then from where you will deploy this aircraft? Land based deployment is also ineffective.

2) He then talks about the Growler. Boeing is working on the NGJ to replace the ALQ-99 jammers, but the latter is still a very potent system. I don't see how the GOTUS is going to release this to us, as is. They will have to downgrade it and that will have to get flight tested. That will cost money. The RFI states nothing about getting an dedicated EW aircraft, which the Growler is. Out of 26, now the navy will have to allocate a small subset for a dedicated EW fleet. We are not Qatar :) The Navy just wants 26 modern fighters, of which 18 have to be single seaters (for deployment on Vikrant + reserves) and 8 twin seat trainers.

3) He then claims that "...Boeing is complaining that the RFI is based on the lowest common denominator, in which the lowest priced aircraft is chosen rather than the most capable one." That is the exact quote from the article. While the DPP does require the lowest priced aircraft to be selected, it is a well known fact that the F-18SH is cheaper than the Rafale M. It is surprising that he is insinuating that Boeing feels that the F-18SH will be more expensive than the Rafale M. He is displaying his Lahori Mathematics.
ramana wrote:In contrast, the Rafale’s wings are not foldable. Parts must be removed – such as nose cone :?: and wing tips – to move it from one deck to another.
Ramana-ji, this is another one of his absurd claims from the article. The length of the Rafale M was never the issue. It was always the wing tips. Having to removing the nose cone will automatically disqualify the Rafale M from the contest. In a sea storm (which the Arabian Sea, the Indian Ocean and Bay of Bengal routinely have), salt water will be all over the deck of the Vikrant. If salt water comes into contact with the RBE2 radar on the Rafale M, during her journey up and down that lift or even on the deck, that AESA is done for. Nose cones of naval fighters are only removed in the hangar of the aircraft carrier, where the airframe is safe and sound from sea storms and salt water ingestion.

It is the F-18 that is longer in length than the Rafale M and has to sit canted on the lift. She will be hanging over the lift, but that will not disqualify the F-18.
ramana wrote:And F-18 is a single vendor.
So that charade is to have Rafale M as shore-based a/c to prevent a single vendor.
No one should be blamed except the naval aviation admirals who ensured the aircraft lift is sized small.
This reduces options for aircraft.
By 2010 the Navy knew they needed bigger lifts yet they did nothing to ensure that.

And not the insistence on twin-engine which only Mig-29s have.
All these years Navy was quite happy operating single-engine aircraft.
Ramana-ji, with regards to the lifts and the wingtips...the Navy has said that the Rafale M does fit on the lift of the Vikrant. The Rafale M would not have undergone a 10-day testing at SBTF in Goa, if this was not verified. It is pointless to test an aircraft that will not be compatible. A 10-day testing will easily run a few million dollars if not more. Plus the cost of deploying an aircraft to India, along with all the associated weaponry. Dassault will not commit to spending that money, if the Rafale M was incompatible.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

A Nimitz Class aircraft carrier, in the middle of a sea storm, conducting landings. This is doable on a 100,000+ ton super carrier, due to her sheer mass and size. As a side note, naval personnel will call this sea state calm :mrgreen:

On a 45,000 ton vessel like the Vikrant, Mother Nature will toss her around like a rubber dinghy. Remove the nose cone of a naval fighter in this weather condition and that too on a light aircraft carrier like the Vikrant? :) Shukla should stick to what he knows best.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, If a decision is made when are the aircraft supposed to be available? First few and the full complement.
Appreciate a quick answer.

Looks like two tranches are being sought.
The first tranche is 18 single-seat and 8 twin-seat making the total of 26 a/c.
The second tranche will be 31 aircraft.

So the total will be 26+31= 57. The magical number!
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh, If a decision is made when are the aircraft supposed to be available? First few and the full complement.
Appreciate a quick answer.
Dassault has reportedly offered four Rafale Ms (of the latest F3R variant) from the French Navy's stocks when the Vikrant gets commissioned this August. There are only around 40+ Rafale Ms made. The French only have one carrier - the CDG - and they are deployed from there, when she sails. The CDG just recently completed a massive refit & refurbishment and the French will need every airframe available.

With Boeing, the sky is the limit. The US Navy's Pacific Fleet has around 20 squadrons of Rhinos. Their Atlantic Fleet has around 15 squadrons of Rhinos. As per wiki, each squadron has around 12 aircraft. That is around 420 aircraft right there. They can easily lend a few, till the first batch of Indian Navy F-18s arrive.

First batch of either aircraft will arrive within three years of contract signature and the full complement can easily be completed within a year and a half. The order book is very small i.e. only 26 aircraft.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

Ok.
First batch of either aircraft will arrive within three years of contract signature and the full complement can easily be completed within a year and a half. The order book is very small i.e. only 26 aircraft.
When is TEDBF to be ready for induction?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Only in the 2030s, not before.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by bala »

Admiralji F-18 will be under strict use guidelines, can the IN live those terms. Effectively, IN will be using MiG-29 and F-18 on their carriers, some intermixed perhaps?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

The IN is perfectly happy operating the P-8I and the upcoming MH-60R. They will have no problem operating the F-18SH, if it is chosen.

End use monitoring will be there, but the IN lives with that issue on the P-8I and the MH-60R. The very fact that the trials of the F-18SH are being conducted, clearly indicates that the Navy is okay with such an arrangement.

No intermixing. This fleet is solely for Vikrant. The less said about Vikramaditya, the better.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

There are folks above the IN. It is not like its own sea-going militia.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

That is exactly what the IAF thinks of the Naval Air Arm :lol:
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by RCase »

I have a noob question... Maybe the admiral can answer.
Why is the aircraft selection being done now when the carrier is about to be deployed. It seems rather dumb to have a carrier sailing around without any aircraft for about 3 years. The situation with the lift size is another comedy of errors. Why did not the design team/ navy consider lift sizes to be comparable with other carriers of the world?

Even if they pick an aircraft, it will take 3 years for full strength to be delivered. This is poor planning and seems like an afterthought that we need aircrafts for an aircraft carrier! The guys in the planning of the AC from the IN need to be held accountable and heads need to roll.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by konaseema »

Out of the 40 odd Mig 29K's we have, we should be able to operate a handful of them (Vicky can accommodate only 26 fixed wing aircraft at any given time. We can get 4-6 to operate) from Vikrant later this year at the time of Induction. In the case of Vicky going for any sort of maintenance, we can still utilize the rest of the aircrafts from Vikrant, instead of using them out of the Dabolim Naval Station. So what IN is planning, is for a full complement of aircrafts to be operated dedicatedly from INS Vikrant. INS Vikrant will be inducted with no fixed wing aircraft, only if IN is hell bent on not using Mig 29K on INS Vikrant.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

RCase wrote:Why is the aircraft selection being done now when the carrier is about to be deployed. It seems rather dumb to have a carrier sailing around without any aircraft for about 3 years.
Sirjee, you are asking about the mysteries of life :lol: This is going to be a long reply, so please bear with me.

This air wing is not a new acquisition. When the keel for the Vikrant was laid in 2009, it was expected that she would operate the MiG-29K/KUB along with the Vikramaditya which operates a similar air wing. Two naval air squadrons were raised - one old (No 300) and one new (No 303) - for the MIG-29K/KUB fleet. But the MiG-29K/KUB turned out to be a disappointment and that is putting it mildly. She could not handle the stresses of landing on aircraft carriers, among other issues.

These issues plagued the MiG-29's fleet availability and serviceability. The Vikramaditya also had a host of her own issues. While this was plaguing the Indian Navy's sole aircraft carrier and her air wing, geopolitically and strategically, events were moving at a rapid pace in the Indian Ocean Region. China's alarming naval growth were causing concern to naval planners in New Delhi, but as usual India's internal issues (politics, budget, bureaucracy, etc) kept delaying decision making.

The Indian Navy, insulated in her own bubble combined with annual Malabar exercises, made grandoise plans of super carriers with EMALS, 57 carrier borne fighters, six SSNs, six SSKs of the P-75I variety, rotary winged aircraft, larger and more powerful destroyers, frigates, etc. As we now know, no plans were ever discussed with the MoD or the MoF on how these acquisitions were going to be funded. But the Indian Navy continued to sail ahead, in the foolish hope that somehow and in some manner these programs were all going to be divinely funded.

From the quagmire of this foolishness arose a RFI in January 2017, for 57 carrier borne fighters. The Navy wanted 18 fighters for three aircraft carriers with three reserve airframes. The three aircraft carriers were to be Vikramaditya, Vikrant and Vishal (the proposed super carrier with a nuclear powered reactor + EMALS). But remember, there was never any formal sanction from the GOI for this. This was all the Indian Navy's own doing. So much so, that the Navy Chief at the 2018 Navy Day function boldly proclaimed, "There are no budgetary shortfalls in acquiring 57 multi-role carrier borne fighters."

But reality soon struck these Navy Admirals right in their face. They went for sanction of funds, only to be shown the door by the MoD/MoF. From 57 aircraft, the number went down to 36, then 35 and now sits at 26. Along with this reduction, the third aircraft carrier was also torpedoed due to budgetary shortfalls. Navy Admirals were aghast at the lack of foresight and vision by our politicians and bureaucrats. They wanted the moon, but refused to fund the fundamental basics. A good example would be the nuclear reactor of INS Vishal. The Navy wanted BARC to fund the reactor design for the vessel, but BARC bluntly told them ---> If you want a reactor, then you provide the funding.

But as all this tamasha was occurring, the Vikrant was slowly but surely coming into reality. And true to form, our prescient naval planners suddenly realized that the Vikrant has no air wing! The MiG-29K/KUB was hopeless, the N-LCA was not an effective naval fighter and the proposed TEDBF has a long gestation period before she can serve as a modern, carrier borne, naval fighter. So now they are scrambling to complete trials of two fighters that will never live up to their full potential on a STOBAR vessel like the Vikrant. The Indian Navy is commissioning an aircraft carrier - in three months - that has no air wing! The MiG-29K will serve temporarily till either the Rafale M or F-18SH enter service.

The latest stupidities that are playing out between the hallowed halls of Naval HQ and the MoD/MoF is the decision over the the third aircraft carrier (INS Vishal) and Project 75I (six-build SSK program). But these are stories for another day. But once again, these decision will be sudden and ad-hoc. We are a regional power! :mrgreen:
RCase wrote:The situation with the lift size is another comedy of errors. Why did not the design team/ navy consider lift sizes to be comparable with other carriers of the world?
The Vikrant, while Indian in design, incorporates a number of design cues from the Vikramaditya. So the lift design is modeled along the lift dimensions of the Vikramaditya. It was designed to accommodate the MiG-29K and N-LCA, two aircraft that are today unsuitable for carrier operations. It is a miracle that the Rafale M and F-18SH even fit!
RCase wrote:Even if they pick an aircraft, it will take 3 years for full strength to be delivered. This is poor planning and seems like an afterthought that we need aircrafts for an aircraft carrier! The guys in the planning of the AC from the IN need to be held accountable and heads need to roll.
True, but both OEMs will provide loaners till the IN-manufactured ones are ready for induction. Similar to how the Jaguars were inducted into the IAF in the late 70s. The first batch of Jaguars were ex-RAF and were returned when the first IAF batch arrived in India.

A number of players (Indian Navy, politicians, bureaucrats) need to be held accountable for this mess, but not a single one will. Who is going to bell the cat? Always remember that Satan never casts out Satan.
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Minister ji is doing Kadi Ninda of all those blips on the screen...
Be warned hell hath no fury like Kadi Ninda!!
Video of the event...

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/152 ... Bz57RoPJ4g ---> Welcome footage from the inside of an @IndianNavy P-8I during a sortie with Defence Minister @RajnathSingh on board.
ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral
Do you think that these recent Russian shenanigans and the resultant geopolitical implications on India will wake up the Indian Admiralty?
Otherwise, BR is getting very depressing for me on a rainy Friday afternoon.
Subs - issue
AC - Issue
IAF AC - issue
Rifles - Issue
Arty - Issue
Heptrs - Issue
CDS - Issue
Armr - Issue
YOu name it - Issue

For how long will the forces continue to fight from the shoulders of YOs / NCOs?
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

We will continue to fight from the shoulders of YOs / NCOs, because they are the only idealistic and motivated lot that want to do anything. They are the ones who lead from the front and face the greatest danger. Many of them pay for this with their life. But life is expendable in India. Pin a medal and then rinse & repeat. The senior officers are so insulated within their own service that they cannot see beyond their little bubble.

In Staff College or whatever they have in India that grooms officers for Command/Flag Rank, there needs to be a serious relook at how to overcome this impasse. The next generation of staff officers need to think not just of their own service or corps, but of their sister services and what is best for the country. I hope to see a day when an Air Marshal from the Air Force can lead a lecture on the importance of aircraft carriers. Or when a Lt General from the Artillery Corps can be the lead in a discussion on the importance of air power.

Before we shake our head and say this is not practical, we need to ask ourselves WHY?

Why are senior military leaders not able to understand or appreciate what their sister services do? This attitude has to change. Once you reach Command/Flag Rank, you need to look beyond just your own service. If you are incapable of doing this, then you should not get promoted to that rank. PERIOD. Step aside, retire and let someone else who can understand those nuances, do it. When appointed as Flag Officer Commanding in Chief, Western Naval Command, Indian Navy you are a senior leadership officer of the Armed Forces of India. That comes with not just responsibility of your command, but a deep understanding of what your sister services do.

Senior military leaders in India need to go beyond their own service and see where the greater need is, allocate funds and plan accordingly. That is just not happening in India right now. I-want-114-MRFA-and-I-will-hold-my-breath-till-I-turn-BLUE is not an effective strategy OR I-must-have-a-65,000-ton-aircraft-carrier-with-EMALS-and-nuclear-reactor-and-shame-on-you-if-you-cannot-see-the-value-of-naval-air-power is not going to work any longer.

Whoever the new CDS is needs to implement or introduce this thought. This is the precursor to Atmanirbhar Bharat.
ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral
So first Arty has to understand infantry has to understand armour has to understand Engineers etc before understanding IAF.
The fighter pilot thinks he is the bee's knees and that engineers and missle men are children of a lesser god.
The degree of parochialism within the three services itself is to be seen to be believed.
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