Indian Naval Aviation

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Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

RCase wrote:True. But deep out in the Indian Ocean, what are the 'targets' that these planes will have to fly to great distances to deliver their payload? Our carriers are pretty much in action closer to our coasts. For all practical purposes, our naval range of action is pretty much Pakistan, may be from the Gulf to straits of Malacca. As all our politicians and even armed forces heads tout we are never on expeditionary missions to conquer/invade other countries!

Same goes for the IAF. Their range of action is pretty much Pakistan and Tibet at best.
Bingo! Thank you for stating the obvious :) That is challenging to do on BRF at times.

As you indicated, India's theatre of operations is largely limited to the IOR and more so closer to the coast.

Since India will not be venturing outside of the IOR, the question then needs to be asked is what is the purpose of a super carrier with catapult launch? This is exactly why the third aircraft carrier (with steam catapults or EMALS) is finding it so challenging to get sanction of funds from the Govt. They see no need for this capability, regardless of what the IN's wish lists are.

This is the same GOI that is running a never ending competition for six P-75I vessels, 26+ MRCBF aircraft, 114 MRFA, etc. In addition to all this, the Directorate of Naval Design has stated that the design work for the six P75 Alpha vessels (India's six-build SSN program) will be completed by the end of 2023. That too will get sanctioned, but the third aircraft carrier (in the configuration that the Indian Navy wants) is going nowhere.

In light of India's limited IOR theatre of operations, which of the two (F-18SH or Rafale M) do you believe will serve the IN better? To answer that, we need to step out of our own personal biases and wishes. Then the decision becomes clear. This is one of the key areas where the Navy will be looking at. And in this limited IOR theatre of operations, a land-based in-flight refuelling capability becomes more viable and practical. IFR will also open the door for an AEW capability as well.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:RCase we are a very expeditionary Armed Force at the moment.

Every weapons requirement is an expedition through different brochures and different arms suppliers.
Well said. In India, we wait for a foreign product to come on the market and then write the RFI/RFP.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

These pictures are NOT from the Rafale M's visit to the SBTF in Goa. One can obviously figure that out when they see the pictures :) These are old pictures of a Rafale M prototype during her tests with the French Navy. This is aboard one of the now-retired pair of French aircraft carriers (Foch or Clemenceau). My guess* is this has to be somewhere around the late 1990s or early 2000s, but someone will have to confirm.

(*Added Later: Wiki Chacha says the testing of the Rafale M was done aboard the Foch in 1992).

I am posting this to give readers an idea of how the Rafale M fits on the lifts and also to see the wingtips that will likely have to be removed from the aircraft, when she travels up and down on the Vikrant's lifts. See the first picture for that. The Foch's lifts (1970s vintage design) are bigger than the lifts on the Vikrant (21st century vintage design) :lol:

Drag & Drop pictures into new browser windows for full size. Enjoy.

https://twitter.com/vodk_anon/status/15 ... DJl1A9lpsA ---> Rafale M prototype testing.

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by AkshaySG »

It seems like the exercises with the Americans have had a big impact on the IN psyche... They saw US Supercarriers dominate the seas with their CBG's, a extremely capable fixed wing force and decided this the way to go for India too

But we simply don't have that requirement from our Navy... We're not gonna take an Aircraft carrier to the Pacific Ocean or SCS.

3 Vikrant class carriers (1 in refit and two for each Seaboard) would be enough and that was possible for the IN had they not be enamored by the Supa dupa CATOBAR.

I've said this multiple times here and in other places but if we used our island based Naval Air Stations in a more offensive role such as basing a couple of squadrons in Andaman, Nicobar, Lakshwadeep and you can cover most of IN's operating area

Add to that some inter operability with IAF squadrons based out of TN, WB, GJ etc and there wouldn't be any area out of coverage for our fighters.. That too with none of the restrictions that come with deck based takeoff and landing.

Also you know what can actually go into the Pacific and SCS... Submarines, Something which we barely have enough of to protect our own shores let alone scare others.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

I try not to post stuff from IDRW, because they shamelessly plagiarize from other sources.

However I could not find the original link of this article.

Rafale M offered to Indian Navy has 95% commonality to IAF's Rafale: Dassault
https://idrw.org/rafale-m-offered-to-in ... -dassault/
22 July 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

AkshaySG wrote:It seems like the exercises with the Americans have had a big impact on the IN psyche... They saw US Supercarriers dominate the seas with their CBG's, a extremely capable fixed wing force and decided this the way to go for India too

But we simply don't have that requirement from our Navy... We're not gonna take an Aircraft carrier to the Pacific Ocean or SCS.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&start=2160#p2557935
AkshaySG wrote:3 Vikrant class carriers (1 in refit and two for each Seaboard) would be enough and that was possible for the IN had they not be enamored by the Supa dupa CATOBAR.
Cochin SY can build another Vikrant Class vessel in under 10 years. But the IN does not want it. Best is the enemy of good enough.
AkshaySG wrote:Also you know what can actually go into the Pacific and SCS... Submarines, Something which we barely have enough of to protect our own shores let alone scare others.
Why sir use logic, when illogical (monetary) ideas like 65,000 ton super carrier live perpetually in the minds of our Navy Admirals?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by fanne »

from the other thread -

US aircraft carriers' availability
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9316.html

What it is saying is that in a year, US carrier is available for 3 months and available for 'surge' in 30 days for another 2 months and in 90 days in 1 month. At least it is down for 5 months in a year, where even if wanted, it cannot take part in any war.

In 1965, Vikrant sat out of war (due to maintenance) and in 1971 war it was surged (as we knew approx when we will attack). Today now, we would be lucky if both Vikrant and Vikramaditya are available for sudden war (lasting less than 30 days). If we look at US maintenance cycle and assuming the following -
1. War is unexpected (i.e. we do not have the luxury to decide time, however having said that, fight with PLA will be most likely in Oct/Nov). In winter it is tough for both side, and during monsoon, it is impossible for both sides. Summer is another window).
2. War is less than 30 days.

In both these cases, it looks like that even if we plan to have 1 AC available, they would be approx be available for 6 months. If that is the case, isn't 54 Mig 29 sufficient. It looks like, we would be lucky to have at least 1 AC available all the time.
Why not work on Mig 29, more spares (How Panikar Ji had su30mki availability improved, the spare inventory was forward-looking rather than ordering when needed, when it took months or years to come from Russia). This is also assuming that, it is not really dud but extremely maintenance intensive.

This buys us more time and we need not spend billions of dollars (I would say in the range of 5 billion dollars for either Rafale or F-18) and develop TEDBF in the meantime? Or maybe more nlca or God forbid some 20 more Mig 29K?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by fanne »

I would say there is a 30% probability that in war both a/c will be available, and in that scenario, not having enough naval bird will be a very fatal shortcoming.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ldev »

AkshaySG wrote:It seems like the exercises with the Americans have had a big impact on the IN psyche... They saw US Supercarriers dominate the seas with their CBG's, a extremely capable fixed wing force and decided this the way to go for India too

But we simply don't have that requirement from our Navy... We're not gonna take an Aircraft carrier to the Pacific Ocean or SCS.

3 Vikrant class carriers (1 in refit and two for each Seaboard) would be enough and that was possible for the IN had they not be enamored by the Supa dupa CATOBAR.

I've said this multiple times here and in other places but if we used our island based Naval Air Stations in a more offensive role such as basing a couple of squadrons in Andaman, Nicobar, Lakshwadeep and you can cover most of IN's operating area

Add to that some inter operability with IAF squadrons based out of TN, WB, GJ etc and there wouldn't be any area out of coverage for our fighters.. That too with none of the restrictions that come with deck based takeoff and landing.

Also you know what can actually go into the Pacific and SCS... Submarines, Something which we barely have enough of to protect our own shores let alone scare others.
For 31 years from 1961 till it's retirement in 1997 the original INS Vikrant was a CATOBAR carrier operated by the Indian Navy so IN has had a lot of experience in operating off CATOBAR carriers. It was only when the Indian Navy got INS Viraat (formerly HMS Hermes) that it got it's first STOBAR. However that was because HMS Hermes was meant for the S/VTOL Harrier for which a STOBAR was perfectly suited which the IN also used for it's Harrier fleet.

When INS Viraat was coming to the end of it's service life the Soviet built Kuznetsov and Varyag were available. The only reason the Soviets had the Kuznetsov and Varyag as STOBARs was because they intended to use them for training their pilots being modifed cruisers which could be easily modified for that training purpose. They never intended to use them long term as carriers. Their plan was to build a CATOBAR super carrier to challenge the USN super carriers and towards that end they began construction of the nuclear powered Ulyanovsk Carrier which was abandoned when the USSR disintegrated.

The IN has gone in for a sub optimal solution by using STOBAR for carrying conventional takeoff and landing fighters, which was never their intended use. Either the Harrier or the F-35B will be perfectly suitable for India's STOBAR carriers, not the Mig29K or the Rafale or the SH.

In terms of using island bases, a good solution will be to have basing rights in Seychelles, Maldives, Mauritius and Reunion Island and base a squadron of fighters at each of these locations with P-8s and aerial refuellers. That will cover the Chinese threat in eastern Africa.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ldev wrote:For 31 years from 1961 till it's retirement in 1997 the original INS Vikrant was a CATOBAR carrier operated by the Indian Navy so IN has had a lot of experience in operating off CATOBAR carriers.
One Navy admiral suggested to reverse engineer (& modernize/update) the steam catapults from the original Vikrant for the next aircraft carrier (INS Vishal). DRDO is also working on EMALS type catapult as well. But since projects move painfully slow in India, it will not be ready in any practical time.
ldev wrote:Either the Harrier or the F-35B will be perfectly suitable for India's STOBAR carriers, not the Mig29K or the Rafale or the SH.
Brar stated that the F-35B will not fit on the lifts of the Vikrant. The B's wingspan (35 feet) is similar to the Rafale M (35.4 feet).
ldev wrote:In terms of using island bases, a good solution will be to have basing rights in Seychelles, Maldives, Mauritius and Reunion Island and base a squadron of fighters at each of these locations with P-8s and aerial refuellers. That will cover the Chinese threat in eastern Africa.
There was a recent P-8I exercise at Reunion Island. Could possibly see an eventual basing there. However there are only 12 P-8Is in service. With the C-295 deal with Airbus, additional P-8Is are on hold. One can hope the GOI orders the planned six, to bring the numbers up to 18.

Indian Navy’s P-8I begins 5-day mission to La Reunion Island in Southern Indian Ocean
https://theprint.in/india/indian-navys- ... an/949521/
09 May 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

fanne wrote:from the other thread -

US aircraft carriers' availability
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_briefs/RB9316.html

What it is saying is that in a year, US carrier is available for 3 months and available for 'surge' in 30 days for another 2 months and in 90 days in 1 month. At least it is down for 5 months in a year, where even if wanted, it cannot take part in any war.
Assuming what the Rand report states is even true, please note that there are 11 aircraft carriers in the US Navy.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ldev »

Rakesh wrote: One Navy admiral suggested to reverse engineer (& modernize/update) the steam catapults from the original Vikrant for the next aircraft carrier (INS Vishal). DRDO is also working on EMALS type catapult as well. But since projects move painfully slow in India, it will not be ready in any practical time.
If the IN is serious about carrier operations, it has to go in for CATOBAR carriers....eventually.....whenever DRDO get's it's EMALs ready. Even China has transitioned to an EMALS CATOBAR for it's first full inhouse design, the Type 003 Fijian currently under construction after building the STOBAR Shandong which a refinement of the Varyag which they got from Ukraine. Building a conventional take off and landing TEDBF will be tough enough, imagine the complexity of making a S/VTOL variant of it!! So in terms of long term planning IN has no other option but to go CATOBAR IMO.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

By the time the first CATOBAR vessel arrives in Indian Navy colours, the PLAN will be far ahead in terms of numbers. We are not going to win the catch up game with China. So other counters will have to be developed, however sub-optimal they will be.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by fanne »

Catobar is must for utilizing deck based fighter to its full potential. Rumor on the internet is that the penalty is as much as 50% or more in terms of payload and fuel.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:These pictures are NOT from the Rafale M's visit to the SBTF in Goa. One can obviously figure that out when they see the pictures :) These are old pictures of a Rafale M prototype during her tests with the French Navy. This is aboard one of the now-retired pair of French aircraft carriers (Foch or Clemenceau). My guess* is this has to be somewhere around the late 1990s or early 2000s, but someone will have to confirm.

(*Added Later: Wiki Chacha says the testing of the Rafale M was done aboard the Foch in 1992).

I am posting this to give readers an idea of how the Rafale M fits on the lifts and also to see the wingtips that will likely have to be removed from the aircraft, when she travels up and down on the Vikrant's lifts. See the first picture for that. The Foch's lifts (1970s vintage design) are bigger than the lifts on the Vikrant (21st century vintage design) :lol:

Drag & Drop pictures into new browser windows for full size. Enjoy.
The absolute myopia (or something more sinister/insidious?) of the IN to design their entire aviation complex including the lifts around the 29K (with one of the smallest folded wing cross sections of any carrier fighter)

The CDG which has almost identical dimensions to the IAC-1 in terms of length and displacement has 2X lifts that the Rafales (with wingtips attached) can use with easily 1-1.5m of clearance EITHER SIDE of the wings.

The QE Class can lift a CH-47 with none of its blades detached/folded.


What is the IN thinking building carriers with the smallest aircraft lifts they possibly could? This is criminal negligence and has lead to this entire debacle.


As I must keep reminding everyone the Rafale’s wing issues are not unique to it, even with the SH’s wings folded it can’t use the Vikrant’s lifts without a specially designed jig tilting the airframe
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:I try not to post stuff from IDRW, because they shamelessly plagiarize from other sources.

However I could not find the original link of this article.

Rafale M offered to Indian Navy has 95% commonality to IAF's Rafale: Dassault
https://idrw.org/rafale-m-offered-to-in ... -dassault/
22 July 2022
Like I said, almost all factors are in Rafale’s favour
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:Shukla's tweet above triggered the Rafale (French) fans on twitter. See their responses. The third and fourth tweet make valid points. I will have to confirm (or if someone already knows, then please post) that the US Navy does not use the twin seater F-18F for carrier landing training. Because if true, that will bring Dassault right back in contention, albeit only on that point. If Dassault does end up winning the MRCBF contest, there are very few things I would not do to get my hands on that Indian Navy report on the reasons for a Dassault win. Unfortunately that report will be classified. My guess is that Boeing will win this.
This guy is really a piece of work

I don’t remember Shukla taking this position all the times he has explicitly campaigned for the F-35 instead of Rafale for IAF despite the fact that F-35 has no 2 seat variant and the IAF explicitly stated the need for a 2 seater in MMRCA

F-35B/C and Rafale-M are qualified carrier fighters operated by the 2 most capable carrier navies in the last 2 decades, neither come with 2 seat variants

And Dassualt’s offer includes 2 seat Rafale-Bs for land based training, Shukla shilling for US OEMs as usual

https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... AvntXWx-kA
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Vips »

KSingh wrote:
Rakesh wrote:I try not to post stuff from IDRW, because they shamelessly plagiarize from other sources.

However I could not find the original link of this article.

Rafale M offered to Indian Navy has 95% commonality to IAF's Rafale: Dassault
https://idrw.org/rafale-m-offered-to-in ... -dassault/
22 July 2022
Like I said, almost all factors are in Rafale’s favour
So in other words if Indian Navy orders now it will get jets in 3-4 years which will only be F3R variant and not the more capable F4R?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Vips wrote:So in other words if Indian Navy orders now it will get jets in 3-4 years which will only be F3R variant and not the more capable F4R?
He is referring to the commonality between the air force (Rafale C/B) and the navy (Rafale M) examples. He is not talking about the current (F3R) or future (F4) Block variant. Refer to this excerpt from the official Dassault website ---> https://www.dassault-aviation.com/en/de ... -airframe/
All three variants share a common airframe and a common mission system, the differences between naval and land versions being mainly limited to the undercarriage and to the arresting hook.
This commonality is Dassault's USP with the Rafale. One airframe, multiple missions. It is why they use the (marketing) term --> Omnirole. Any future Block upgrades (like the upcoming F4 variant) are applied across the entire applicable Rafale fleet when they receive FOC.

Dassault has offered the F4 variant to compete with the F-18SH Block III. Any new Rafale order for the IAF will also be the F4 variant. The current batch of 36 Rafale F3R(I)s will eventually be upgraded to the Rafale F4 standard in due course.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:This guy is really a piece of work

I don’t remember Shukla taking this position all the times he has explicitly campaigned for the F-35 instead of Rafale for IAF despite the fact that F-35 has no 2 seat variant and the IAF explicitly stated the need for a 2 seater in MMRCA

F-35B/C and Rafale-M are qualified carrier fighters operated by the 2 most capable carrier navies in the last 2 decades, neither come with 2 seat variants

And Dassualt’s offer includes 2 seat Rafale-Bs for land based training, Shukla shilling for US OEMs as usual

https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... AvntXWx-kA
Your tweet in your post above clearly states that GOTUS never had any serious interest in selling the F-35 to India.

The F-35 carrot was dangled to get India to buy the F-16 line. So buy F-16 now and get the F-35 later. The F-21 offer further sweetened that offer, because LM themselves claim that the F-21 contains technology from both the F-22 and the F-35.

However, the F-35 is the US' premier air superiority platform (apart from the F-22) and handing that over to India would not pass muster in the US Congress. India's bonhomie with Russia is still too deep to hand over such a sensitive and crucial platform. With the advent of the Ukraine war (and India's neutral stance over it) combined with the S-400 purchase, closes the door for any opportunity for even a discussion to occur.

Such technology is only handed over to partners that are firmly in the American camp. India is the square peg (strategic partner) that will not fit in the round hole (the American-led global military and democratic alliance). As the war in Ukraine continues in her slug fest fashion (and with India not budging from her position over it) along with S-400 deliveries continuing as per plan, I don't see how the F-35 can come.

Other avenues are being explored between the two nations, but F-35 is the fancy Cornish hen that India will not get her hands on.

Shukla's loyalties are well known to all.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

fanne wrote:Catobar is must for utilizing deck based fighter to its full potential. Rumor on the internet is that the penalty is as much as 50% or more in terms of payload and fuel.
Nothing can be done about the payload, but IFR could occur if the zone of operations are closer to land.

But that negates (or reduces) the advantage of a CBG - the wide open sea.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:The absolute myopia (or something more sinister/insidious?) of the IN to design their entire aviation complex including the lifts around the 29K (with one of the smallest folded wing cross sections of any carrier fighter)

The CDG which has almost identical dimensions to the IAC-1 in terms of length and displacement has 2X lifts that the Rafales (with wingtips attached) can use with easily 1-1.5m of clearance EITHER SIDE of the wings.

The QE Class can lift a CH-47 with none of its blades detached/folded.

What is the IN thinking building carriers with the smallest aircraft lifts they possibly could? This is criminal negligence and has lead to this entire debacle.

As I must keep reminding everyone the Rafale’s wing issues are not unique to it, even with the SH’s wings folded it can’t use the Vikrant’s lifts without a specially designed jig tilting the airframe
The lift design was copied from the Vikramaditya. And the lifts of that vessel are designed to accommodate the MiG-29K and the Naval Tejas. The argument is that it serves the Navy's needs. See below...

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14232 ... dF1uECKNZw ---> Lifts seem to be perfect. We don't exactly need to design for some imported aircraft. Our present and future aircraft fit well, and perhaps we should not eat into storage space by making extras large lifts. It's a tight fit, which is in some ways, most optimized.

So present and future aircraft fit well :)
The suboptimal fit is the Rafale M and F-18SH


https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14236 ... dF1uECKNZw ---> No constraints from where an Indian Navy person sees it. There are three aircraft IAC fits, i.e.

* MiG-29K; which IN operates,
* LCA-Navy; which is undergoing tests by IN,
* TEDBF; which is being designed on IN's specs.

Lifts are designed by IN. No constraints as far as IN knows.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14236 ... dF1uECKNZw ---> I don't think imported aircraft fit into Indian scheme of things. They don't fit.

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14238 ... dF1uECKNZw ---> I love Rafale. But they've not exactly designed it for our Navy. So....
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by fanne »

Remember CATOBAR (at least steam one) in not that hard, our original Vikrant (retired decades ago), originally had steam CAT and was removed on IN request. That is 1950s tech. The French CDG has a steam cat. We should plan for one, if EMALS is too risky. Suddenly, 1 plane can do the work of two planes of STOBAR.

The next version should have at least this update + twice the lift size. Minimum these two improvements.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Video from last Aug with the lifts of the Vikrant in action. Click on the link below and read the rest of that twitter thread....

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... dF1uECKNZw ---. Here is video of one of the two lifts of Vikrant - the issue is not how large or how small it is. It is about how the lift will be most efficiently used and what aircraft suits it. This is an entirely hypothetical discussion since the MiG-29K isn't going anywhere.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by fanne »

Ya, but look at other A/C makers - American, British and French. These lifts are twice bigger than what current planes they can hold. I think we are making a virtue out of our constraints/wrong decisions.
To look at the impact of the above decision, if Rafale comes to be a better plane than F-18, and if (many ifs) the lift is small for Rafale (where in you have to saw off the wing and then glue it back), by designing a small lift we have done a disservice to Vikrant. For future plane developments (it will outlive TedBF), a stealthy TEDBF will be severely constrained by folding wing (or may not be).
The point is that you do not make a house with front door only as big the current biggest equipment you are using. Typically people build it a little bigger.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

In future, we will rue the decision to have such small lifts. One can hope that the next aircraft carrier will have larger lifts.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/orfonline/status/15 ... dF1uECKNZw ---> Purchase of F/A-18 Super Hornets can herald the beginning of a closer long-term relationship with the US, which shall be beneficial for India & especially the Indian Navy in countering the hegemonic blue-water ambitions of #China’s PLAN, opines Aditya Bhan.

Super Hornets may pip Rafales in Indian Navy’s Carrier-based Fighter Aircraft Procurement
https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/ ... dian-navy/
22 July 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... dF1uECKNZw ---> Boeing offers Indian Navy tactics, upgrades and knowledge related to the naval aviation ecosystem from the US Navy, if IN selects F-18 Super Hornets.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by arvin »

^^^
Hope all of this knowledge sharing of tactics is not conditional to an order pipeline of more Super hornets, E2D hawkeyes, Sea Gaurdians, Romeos and so on.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

arvin wrote:^^^
Hope all of this knowledge sharing of tactics is not conditional to an order pipeline of more Super hornets, E2D hawkeyes, Sea Gaurdians, Romeos and so on.
Nothing is free in this world. Everything is quid pro quo.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

India needs to stay the hell away from the US tactics and knowledge. For far too long India has been dependent on others for an easy way out.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by kit »

Looking at the time Vikky spends on port for repairs why not transfer the entire Mig 29k complement to the new Vikrant and say NO to the F-18s?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Aditya_V »

kit wrote:Looking at the time Vikky spends on port for repairs why not transfer the entire Mig 29k complement to the new Vikrant and say NO to the F-18s?
Err what is the availability for the MiG-29Ks, Yes we have about 43-44 of them. When INS Vikrant is inducted it will be with MiG-29K. Rafale/F-18 will come 2-3 years down the line. Supposed to be a gap filler till TEDBF gets inducted.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by John »

kit wrote:Looking at the time Vikky spends on port for repairs why not transfer the entire Mig 29k complement to the new Vikrant and say NO to the F-18s?
I don’t believe Navy is looking to continue to operate Mig-29k from carriers IMO as I mentioned in other thread this procurement is aimed at slowly replacing them. When F-18s/Rafale are procured these will mainly operated from Vikrant and Vikramaditya with few Mig-29k rotated in from shore onto carriers when needed (this will help reduce the heavy usage of Mig-29k from carrier op perhaps extending the airframe life and improving their availability).
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ldev »

ldev wrote:In terms of using island bases, a good solution will be to have basing rights in Seychelles, Maldives, Mauritius and Reunion Island and base a squadron of fighters at each of these locations with P-8s and aerial refuellers. That will cover the Chinese threat in eastern Africa.
Underscoring the importance of having your own aircraft carriers and not relying on the fragility of basing rights, here is a recent article about the "snooping scandal" which has engulfed Mauritius where the Government is being accused by the opposition of letting an Indian technical team access to the undersea cable landing point in Mauritius to supposedly plant data interception devices. This undersea cable carries internet traffic linking South Africa, Reunion Island, Mauritius, India and Malaysia. Consider how much more sensitive military basing rights will be in such countries and how easily a country like China will be able to provoke local protests against such basing rights.

Mauritius ‘snooping’ scandal — the ‘moustache man’ from India in the centre of the storm

Reunion will be a reliable basing option, because it is sovereign French territory. But it is ~4000 km from Kochi and naval aircraft, ground and aerial refuelling options will have to be optimized for those kind of distances.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ldev wrote:Either the Harrier or the F-35B will be perfectly suitable for India's STOBAR carriers, not the Mig29K or the Rafale or the SH.
https://twitter.com/HarshalPal5/status/ ... JZAuXLILPw ---> Some F-35 for R11? (Excuse my bad photoshop editing skill).

Image
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

A new and interesting bit of news. The link below claims that France has offered its training facilities to the Indian Navy, if the IAF is unable to accommodate its Navy counterparts for pilot training (conversion) to the Rafale.

The Rafale M wears the moniker - rightly or wrongly - of not being the right fit for the Vikrant over the F-18SH. Almost all Indian defence reporters and Indian defence content creators on twitter believe that as well. If Dassault does end up winning the MRCBF contest, the storm that will come will be a sight to see. I am sure the Indian Navy is doing her due diligence and documenting everything, to avoid that very scenario. For the CAG - who will undoubtedly go over this contract with a fine tooth comb - there should be no ambiguity.

And Boeing is desperate to win the MRCBF contest, because it keeps the F-18 line open. India is the last "potential" customer left - both at home and globally. Boeing will not go down without a fight. GOTUS - with all their diplomatic and political clout - will be equally behind this.

Please do not post excerpts from the article, because the link explicitly states so and even threatens legal action. Thank You.

Dassault claims that Rafale-M offered to Indian Navy has 95% commonality with the IAF version
https://www.theigmp.org/2022/07/dassaul ... n.html?m=1
22 July 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Dassault's marketing :)

https://twitter.com/MightyWar3/status/1 ... LcC0LHyhqw ---> Dassault assured the Indian Navy that their Rafale M had 95% in common with the Indian Air Force. To be able to compete with its competitors, namely the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet in the Indian Navy.

https://twitter.com/MightyWar3/status/1 ... LcC0LHyhqw ---> Dassault Aviation offers the Rafale M which is 95% similar in components & systems to the Rafale operated by the Indian Air Force. This will simplify the maintenance process, reduce the need for equipment & equipment uniformity.

https://twitter.com/MightyWar3/status/1 ... LcC0LHyhqw ---> In this way both Indian Air Force & Navy can save their money by matching aircraft types. Another good effect the weapons purchased by Air Force for their Rafale can also be installed on Indian Navy Rafale M.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:A new and interesting bit of news. The link below claims that France has offered its training facilities to the Indian Navy, if the IAF is unable to accommodate its Navy counterparts for pilot training (conversion) to the Rafale.

The Rafale M wears the moniker - rightly or wrongly - of not being the right fit for the Vikrant over the F-18SH. Almost all Indian defence reporters and Indian defence content creators on twitter believe that as well. If Dassault does end up winning the MRCBF contest, the storm that will come will be a sight to see. I am sure the Indian Navy is doing her due diligence and documenting everything, to avoid that very scenario. For the CAG - who will undoubtedly go over this contract with a fine tooth comb - there should be no ambiguity.

And Boeing is desperate to win the MRCBF contest, because it keeps the F-18 line open. India is the last "potential" customer left - both at home and globally. Boeing will not go down without a fight. GOTUS - with all their diplomatic and political clout - will be equally behind this.

Please do not post excerpts from the article, because the link explicitly states so and even threatens legal action. Thank You.

Dassault claims that Rafale-M offered to Indian Navy has 95% commonality with the IAF version
https://www.theigmp.org/2022/07/dassaul ... n.html?m=1
22 July 2022
I think it will come down to wire. Both France & US will fight very hard to get this contract.

But who needs it more?
US

Who has natural cost advantages ?
Rafale due to existing maintenance infra and weapons commonality, but F/A-18 is cheaper inherently due to its long production run.

Who will be ready to cut the costs to the hilt?
While the answer may seem like US but should be France - Because if it wins here, it will make it even easier to get part or whole of 114 MRFAs. Because PBL contracts will become less costly to offer; If like IAF Rafale deal, there is a PBL based contract here, Rafale will come cheaper as you will be stocking long tail consumables or LRUs via a common stock for IN & IAF. Those spares and personnel cost will make PBL cheaper for Rafale; Additionally making India an MRO hub for Safran engines.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Kartik »

Pratyush wrote:India needs to stay the hell away from the US tactics and knowledge. For far too long India has been dependent on others for an easy way out.
Not the right way to look at it at all. Cmde Mao himself stated that the US Navy was of immense help during LCA Navy flight testing. The personnel and their tactics and training is not at fault at all. The issue is always the political angle which is not the most reliable.
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