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Indian Naval Aviation

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 15 Dec 2017 16:35

our submarine tender ships would be able to carry and winch the DRSVs down. once we get the puppies, we have to train properly and work out the procedures. a tender has to be deployed on each coast and be kept ready to reach onsite in 24 hrs max.

if a sub goes down in the southern oceans its anyones guess how soon even the USN can respond onsite with DSRVs as the nearest ones would be in home ports of northern hemisphere and not field deployed on the sea...its current system comes in 4 parts and weighs 200tons. so it has to be flown in C5/C17 to nearest base and then taken on ships to the site.

https://www.businessinsider.in/This-Und ... 020383.cms

nothing could be done even to locate till date the argentine sub that went down 400km offshore and we are talking of 5000km from india in the southern oceans no mans land

ideally a megalodon type flying boat like the Spruce Goose or Ekranoplan carrying a DSRV would foray out from its lair and fly 1000s of km directly to the site, drop the DSRV into the ocean and work there until ships arrived in support.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 15 Dec 2017 17:17

Singha ji, i was referring to a surface rescue.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 15 Dec 2017 17:24

ships and subs on surface have usually adequate life rafts to take the entire crew. these are enclosed, have food, medical kit, radio, lights etc and merchant ships can be diverted to reach onsite.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... dia_11.jpg

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 15 Dec 2017 19:10

Sure they can. No need for SAR aircraft then. No requirement so no problem.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby shiv » 15 Dec 2017 20:09

Singha wrote:ideally a megalodon type flying boat like the Spruce Goose or Ekranoplan carrying a DSRV would foray out from its lair and fly 1000s of km directly to the site, drop the DSRV into the ocean and work there until ships arrived in support.

IF the site is known. Which is the real problem

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 15 Dec 2017 20:11

The problem is that so many ships are lost every year without any distress signal and survivors rarely found if ever.Some due to bad weather, machinery and commn.problems.Pirate attacks too.Cargo might shift in the hold in bad weather capsizing the ship, leaving no time for lifeboats, etc. to be launched.The CG and IN will be kept v.busy every year attending to distress calls.zLook how we've still not been able to find that missing AN-32.

I was told some years ago by a sr.offr. stationed in the ANC that a large aircraft, perhaps a specially adapted Orion flew v.low over one of the islands in v.bad weather.It must've crashed because there was huge activity in the environs by Uncle Sam's assets.The IN was never contacted for any help.I can't recollect if a little debris was found.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 15 Dec 2017 20:25

^^ exactly.

That's the first problem.

Then comes getting to it... as quickly as possible.

Lifeboats are fine and pretty useful, especially the new ones. But not really as good and capable as the ship/sub itself. And certainly as not good as dry land. Especially if there are injured/sick people who need to be attended to quickly.

Which leads to the final part. Yes, other IN assets and merchant ships can be, and are frequently called on, to help. But we must really be willing to push our luck if we believe that they will always be around nearby the incident site, then competent enough to carry the rescue operations and finally quick and capable enough to divert from their original destination to take the survivors to our shores or rendezvous with our assets

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2017 20:18

Looking at major sub tragedies in the past, Thresher,Scorpion of the USN, 3 Sov.subs , K-9,Komsomolets and Kursk, locating some of them took years.I think the Scorpion at depths of almost 100000ft.
If a sub is on patrol , on a highly classified mission and not in frequent common., locating it will be like hunting for the proverbial needle in the haystack.In the case of the Argie sub, they knew its route back to base , that it was having problems and yet have still not found it.There are now lots of rumours that it was being tracked by RN assets , etc. and that the Argie Navy is hiding facts...just like the missing Malaysian airliner.

The Kursk sank in relatively shallower waters and was part of an exercise.Its location was known.In deeper waters, unless the sub is able to deploy emergency buoys or send commons., hunting for a missing sub would be virtually impossible if no debris surfaces.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 17 Dec 2017 20:33

Facing challenge at sea, navy embarks on long road to upgrade chopper fleet
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... VDMxL.html

Navy’s push for 24 multi-role helicopters worth Rs 10,000 crore is aimed at adding more air power.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 18 Dec 2017 00:02

Do they have the money for 24 new Helicopter and 57 Aircraft and the long pending list of MCVC , MPA ....list is long and every year they add one new thing to that list. Next year we will hear of plans to procure 100 plus naval LUH

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 18 Dec 2017 16:53

Austin wrote:Do they have the money for 24 new Helicopter and 57 Aircraft and the long pending list of MCVC , MPA ....list is long and every year they add one new thing to that list. Next year we will hear of plans to procure 100 plus naval LUH


IMO the list looks long only because MOD is unable to execute contracts leading to a high inventory of tenders.

In 2015 & 2016 we did not sign any new ship building contract for example.

Specifically for helicopters, this has been a total PIA for IAF, IN and IA. Hopefully with Ka-226 and LUH coming around we will see some rapid movement on this.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby jaysimha » 25 Dec 2017 16:06

NAVAL AVIATION INDIGENISATION ROADMAP (2017-2022)
( MBD - if-RP)
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/def ... 017-22.pdf

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JTull » 19 Jan 2018 02:16

Did IN employ the concept described in this article?

shipborne rolling vertical landing (SRVL)

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2018 03:03

Austin wrote:Do they have the money for 24 new Helicopter and 57 Aircraft and the long pending list of MCVC , MPA ....list is long and every year they add one new thing to that list. Next year we will hear of plans to procure 100 plus naval LUH


What’s the point of having ASW corvettes without it’s primary ASW asset - the chopper. What’s the point P15 A B with capacity for ASW 2 choppers not carrying even one. It’s so sad it’s not even a joke. We are ASW naked in an environment teeming with subs.

And we are sub naked too. Might as well just use navy for piracy patrols and rescue from Yemen missions if this is to persist. It certainly cannot fight adversary in this state.

Aditya you are right.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 19 Jan 2018 04:48

I think the navy should get 36-48 ASW (MH-60S) copters in a g2g deal and be done with it. It will take time to get 9-10 ton copter going on our end since HAL Is focusing on the 12-16ton space at the moment. Don't bother with 24 and options. Just get all you need to replace and factor in some growth as well.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 19 Jan 2018 05:43

^^^
As an interim, N-ALH would have provided some relief until imports came along. Not perfect but not naked :twisted:

Image
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 19 Jan 2018 05:54

Especially if they cut the torps from 2 to 1 and are okay with 2-3 hour on station time. Perhaps dhruv could be fitted larger fuel tanks and really optimized for sea level stuff.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Jan 2018 06:02

^absolutely. This stupidity had crossed all bounds. We're fielding assets worth billions of dollars without essential equipment that makes them very vulnerable to a rather nasty environment getting increasing sub traffic.

Make do with the dhruvs and get those Canadian choppers

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 19 Jan 2018 06:16

All or nothing approach ... seeing that time and time again.

By the time new imported "perfect" platforms arrives, more than a decade would have gone by. Plus, add in time 5-years for deliveries of required quantities and attaining FOC with the service. Plenty of room for interim approaches to address immediate platform shortfalls during those lean years (~15 years). After that point, the interim solutions would act as secondary reserves, which the IN has none of.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 19 Jan 2018 06:24

Is it not possible to accommodate 3 dhruvs instead of the 2 large choppers at the moment on the ships? Till then maybe they add more resources to get same level of service? This might be a stupid question, but just asking.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 19 Jan 2018 06:25

^^^
Even one Dhruv would be a big improvement in the current situation of not enough of the few old ASW choppers remaining for all the capital ships.

Definitely an improvement over this setup
Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 19 Jan 2018 06:40

Defer that 57 plane fantasy for now and get some sh60 seahawks from us navy stocks if we can in a fms deal. Stop this global tender boo boo. Replace them with fresh build when oem delivers.

Also develop the naval dhruv with necessary sonobuoy mission station and er fuel tanks for our larger opv ships and corvettes while leeping the bigger seahawk for ffg and ddg. The naval djruv can also operate off the auxiliary ships and carrier and also from land bases to sanitize nearby sea lanes and harbours. Atleast 100 are reqd if you consider island territories also

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 19 Jan 2018 07:05

The other thing to do is do start working on 6 8-7.5 ton extended dhruv. The arriden engines have grown 25-30% (3g version being used on ka62).Make navy primary customer and optimize it for sea level ops. Keep everything same except grow it for payload and fuel and optimization for under 10k ops and get this puppy out in under 3 years. 4 hour loiter time with 1.5-2 ton payload (2 torps + dunking sonar kit + consoles + 2 extra operators) Funny thing will be the paperwork will take longer than r&d and producing prototypes!

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sum » 24 Jan 2018 06:03

X-post:
sum wrote:From Ravi Rikhaye ( Orbat) Twitter:
Ajai Shukla reports India's naval Tejas is in a coma because the Navy doesn't want it. The MiG-29 is unsuccessful. An expert tells us - without giving classified figures - that Naval Aviation is in horrible shape bar the P-8s http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/ Ed needs chocolate to calm him

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby NRao » 24 Jan 2018 06:17

sum wrote:X-post:
sum wrote:From Ravi Rikhaye ( Orbat) Twitter:


What is the date on that tweet?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby ramana » 24 Jan 2018 07:08

Today 23 jan 2018

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 24 Jan 2018 07:22

Poor Tejas.Meant to be a simple replacement for the MIG-21 and even before it was built and inducted for that task, it was being subjected to much physical abuse to be turned into a one-bird superman capable of operating anywhere on land or sea and performing any trick that PC Sorcar could do!

Naval aviation and aircraft are another ball game altogether.Look at how long the US has taken with the JSF development , in the "one bird fits all types and tasks"
concept which they now know to have been flawed and are studying concepts for the next naval fighter.Torturing poor Tejas for another decade should be ended as the Chinese have already started testing their med. sized stealth bird with a naval version to come ,their AMCA, shows that naval SEFs with their limited capabilities are passe.For the sake of argument, how much more "successful" will a much smaller naval Tejas be, with lesser capabilities be in comparison with a 29K? The 29K is slated to carry the smaller BMos-NG when developed in the future.Tejas no way.Therefore let the IN look to the future with a navalised AMCA right from start or a naval FGFA offered by Russia for the future large CV when it arrives in a decade plus' timeframe.Spending its money in that direction is a far more sensible option.

Right now the IN have little choice but to leverage the MIG-29K to the max.,getting glitches rectified as there are no ready alternatives available that will be able to operate from both carriers, which are unlikely to be joined by another Indian carrier for the next 10-15 years! This is a more sensible task one thinks than flogging the Tejas-N to death. As long as the 29K can operate from the CVs carrying their ordnance- and they've already been exercising with other navies in multiple exercises, with NS watching them at close range too,they're potent fighters and right now the IN have no alternative.

As pointed out in the above posts, the surface fleet are sitting ducks for enemy subs without their ASW helos.For heaven's sake, the MOD must get off its precious backside and order any damn ASW and utility helos, over 200 required in all, from anywhere, asap,so that the IN's surface fleet has its full ASW capability.Most major warships also lack their TAS systems too.Some without SAM's too! The policy of commissioning warships and subs- no torpedoes as well, is a sick joke that NS must stop immediately. At least the VikA has her 29Ks and full complement of helos and can fight as intended unlike a lot of the surface fleet and the Scorpenes.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 24 Jan 2018 08:16

^^^ Even if we want a navalized amca, we need to ensure LCA flies off a carrier soon or we will have to start all over with amca at the same point.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 24 Jan 2018 09:10

LCA-N was tested at the ski jump in Goa already. Found inadequate.For now whatever money is there should be spent on filling the gaps in warships, subs, LRMP birds,subs, anti-missile SAMs and vital spares and eqpt. in general.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 24 Jan 2018 09:23

sum wrote:X-post:
sum wrote:From Ravi Rikhaye ( Orbat) Twitter:


Ajai Jee will only be satisfied once he sees F-18 fly from EMLS powered Aircraft carrier , else he sees problem with Tejas , 29K, Rafale and current government , we get the memo

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 Jan 2018 09:27

Philip wrote:LCA-N was tested at the ski jump in Goa already. Found inadequate.For now whatever money is there should be spent on filling the gaps in warships, subs, LRMP birds,subs, anti-missile SAMs and vital spares and eqpt. in general.

Sir,
1. So would the SBTF rot, or can it be used for training Black panthers?
2. should testing continue to help NAMCA, not sure if that is feasible in any manner, but I would assume even NLCA testing would generate some useful data for NAMCA. The question is have they already go it?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 24 Jan 2018 16:19

Philip wrote:Naval aviation and aircraft are another ball game altogether.Look at how long the US has taken with the JSF development , in the "one bird fits all types and tasks"
concept which they now know to have been flawed and are studying concepts for the next naval fighter.


This is an inaccurate. The US Navy, and indeed the USAF have always (you can look into history) begun conceptualizing the next-generation fighter as soon as they have fielded the current generation system and given the long technology development lead time this is only logical. The ATF program was in R&D phase when F-15's and F-16's were still being fielded in quantity. The F-35 development contract was awarded around the same time the first serial production F-22 went into production. The USN has more than 600 F-18E/F and EA-18Gs to replace which will begin to retire (even after a 3000 hr SLEP) towards the end of the next decade. The Next Generation fighter studies have focused on replacing those aircraft, not the JSF for which the requirements have held steady and it will be declared operational by the USN later this year.

The F-35B which is also a Navy aircraft (USMC) will go out on its first at sea deployment this summer in Japan (only thing holding it back was a ship deployable PHM system which is now being delivered).Yes it takes time for very large 5th generation projects to come to fruition but so far no one else has done it any quicker. The PAKFA program was given to Sukhoi around the same time as well (as the JSF EMD was awarded to Lockheed - roughly 8-12 months after LMA was selected) and so far exactly 0 serial production aircraft have been delivered and even if they meet the target of delivering 12 serial production aircaft to the RuAF by 2020 they would have done so 18 years after the design bureau was down-selected.

Right now the IN have little choice but to leverage the MIG-29K to the max.,getting glitches rectified as there are no ready alternatives available that will be able to operate from both carriers, which are unlikely to be joined by another Indian carrier for the next 10-15 years!


We will have to take a wait and see approach. Perhaps the IN is just using a competition as a negotiating tactic to get MiG to perform, or there could be serious issues with the Naval Fulcrum that it feels make it inappropriate for its needs even when put in context with the high cost of a new naval fighter.
Last edited by brar_w on 24 Jan 2018 17:10, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sum » 24 Jan 2018 16:22

Austin wrote:
sum wrote:X-post:


Ajai Jee will only be satisfied once he sees F-18 fly from EMLS powered Aircraft carrier , else he sees problem with Tejas , 29K, Rafale and current government , we get the memo

What he has reported about the N-LCA is heartbreaking and a factual report ( and not his opinion). Hope that the situation changes on that front

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JayS » 24 Jan 2018 17:18

brar_w wrote:
Philip wrote:Naval aviation and aircraft are another ball game altogether.Look at how long the US has taken with the JSF development , in the "one bird fits all types and tasks"
concept which they now know to have been flawed and are studying concepts for the next naval fighter.


This is an inaccurate. The US Navy, and indeed the USAF have always (you can look into history) begun conceptualizing the next-generation fighter as soon as they have fielded the current generation system and given the long technology development lead time this is only logical. The ATF program was in R&D phase when F-15's and F-16's were still being fielded in quantity.


Very true. The other day I read or saw somewhere how the UASF already started asking question to industry on 'what next' even before one of the teens was yet to even fly for the first time and other was only undergoing flight testing. Once I collected all the airplane documentaries that I could find and went through them. Recurring theme was how the next plane was always next in line when the current one was barely inducted. The cycle time has elongated over the decades for various reasons but the cycle goes on still. This is true to large extent for other nations such as Russia or France or UK as well. But due to ease of finding information and sheer vastness of efforts, its easiest to notice the continuation in US Aviation history.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 24 Jan 2018 17:30

JayS wrote:
Very true. The other day I read or saw somewhere how the UASF already started asking question to industry on 'what next' even before one of the teens was yet to even fly for the first time and other was only undergoing flight testing. Once I collected all the airplane documentaries that I could find and went through them. Recurring theme was how the next plane was always next in line when the current one was barely inducted. The cycle time has elongated over the decades for various reasons but the cycle goes on still. This is true to large extent for other nations such as Russia or France or UK as well. But due to ease of finding information and sheer vastness of efforts, its easiest to notice the continuation in US Aviation history.



viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5092&p=2247123#p2247123
Last edited by brar_w on 24 Jan 2018 17:36, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 24 Jan 2018 17:35

Austin wrote:
sum wrote:X-post:


Ajai Jee will only be satisfied once he sees F-18 fly from EMLS powered Aircraft carrier , else he sees problem with Tejas , 29K, Rafale and current government , we get the memo


Austin ji, we can’t ignore that carrier air is a depressing mess right now with the N-LCA prototypes being left in a hangar and MiG-29Ks that need to be “calibrated” after every landing. The Navy sending out a RFI when the MiGs are all but brand new. The Vikrant delayed because of the Russian aviation complex. The lifts posing an obstacle in both carriers even if the RFI finds a good candidate.

We need to get the third carrier and its aircraft right. If we ever get the new carrier.

That said, those gorgeous takeoffs and night landings on the Vikramaditya show us that our men and women can make do with anything with great skill and aplomb. But I rather not have them in a faux carrier aircraft like the 29K where where things are jarred lose after every landing.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JTull » 24 Jan 2018 19:53

No point in going after Ajai Shukla, when all of us are concerned about lack of progress on N-LCA. He's only serving to keep the project from getting forgotten. No harm in that.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vivek K » 25 Jan 2018 00:03

JTull wrote:No point in going after Ajai Shukla, when all of us are concerned about lack of progress on N-LCA. He's only serving to keep the project from getting forgotten. No harm in that.

True that. But it seems that future IN carriers may not have operating aircraft. So future Naval Aviation may need to rely on shore based aircraft with IFR. This reliance on shore based assets will take away the "blue water" label for the IN.

Go with what you have instead of chasing every pipe dream or "Mirage" (or should I say Rafale)? How many times does TOT process have to fail before Indians will learn?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 25 Jan 2018 00:55

IN can't possibly junk the Mig-29Ks. They have to work with the manufacturer and fix these defects however long or whatever it takes. Adding 57 for the next carrier is fine, but they will still need the 45 for the first two carriers. The idea that this will get junked is silly. All russian stuff is like this only (mostly fixed in the field after umpteen complains).

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 02 Feb 2018 20:50

This is a wild idea, which is purely meant as a brainstorming excercise. I request the gurulog to help either see a merit in it or tear it apart.
Why can't the navy order the NLCA Mk1 in small nos (<=30) for LIFT roles on carriers once it is carrier qualified??

My reasons for this are:
1. Reduced wear and tear on the Fulcrum fleet since most of the training can be done on NLCA, leaving Fulcrums for operational training and actual ops.

2. Generate data on the performance of the systems and feedback from users on field. Being a training unit it would be pushed harder and more regularly so you can generate more data vis a vis a regular operational squadron(my assumption).

3. Cheap shore based hgh performance aircraft for protecting VA/VP of navy leaving the Fulcrums to concentrate on other more pressing roles.

Others are welcome to add further possibilities as well.


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