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Indian Naval Aviation

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Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 15 Dec 2017 16:35

our submarine tender ships would be able to carry and winch the DRSVs down. once we get the puppies, we have to train properly and work out the procedures. a tender has to be deployed on each coast and be kept ready to reach onsite in 24 hrs max.

if a sub goes down in the southern oceans its anyones guess how soon even the USN can respond onsite with DSRVs as the nearest ones would be in home ports of northern hemisphere and not field deployed on the sea...its current system comes in 4 parts and weighs 200tons. so it has to be flown in C5/C17 to nearest base and then taken on ships to the site.

https://www.businessinsider.in/This-Und ... 020383.cms

nothing could be done even to locate till date the argentine sub that went down 400km offshore and we are talking of 5000km from india in the southern oceans no mans land

ideally a megalodon type flying boat like the Spruce Goose or Ekranoplan carrying a DSRV would foray out from its lair and fly 1000s of km directly to the site, drop the DSRV into the ocean and work there until ships arrived in support.

Manish_P
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 15 Dec 2017 17:17

Singha ji, i was referring to a surface rescue.

Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 15 Dec 2017 17:24

ships and subs on surface have usually adequate life rafts to take the entire crew. these are enclosed, have food, medical kit, radio, lights etc and merchant ships can be diverted to reach onsite.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... dia_11.jpg

Manish_P
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 15 Dec 2017 19:10

Sure they can. No need for SAR aircraft then. No requirement so no problem.

shiv
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby shiv » 15 Dec 2017 20:09

Singha wrote:ideally a megalodon type flying boat like the Spruce Goose or Ekranoplan carrying a DSRV would foray out from its lair and fly 1000s of km directly to the site, drop the DSRV into the ocean and work there until ships arrived in support.

IF the site is known. Which is the real problem

Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 15 Dec 2017 20:11

The problem is that so many ships are lost every year without any distress signal and survivors rarely found if ever.Some due to bad weather, machinery and commn.problems.Pirate attacks too.Cargo might shift in the hold in bad weather capsizing the ship, leaving no time for lifeboats, etc. to be launched.The CG and IN will be kept v.busy every year attending to distress calls.zLook how we've still not been able to find that missing AN-32.

I was told some years ago by a sr.offr. stationed in the ANC that a large aircraft, perhaps a specially adapted Orion flew v.low over one of the islands in v.bad weather.It must've crashed because there was huge activity in the environs by Uncle Sam's assets.The IN was never contacted for any help.I can't recollect if a little debris was found.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Manish_P » 15 Dec 2017 20:25

^^ exactly.

That's the first problem.

Then comes getting to it... as quickly as possible.

Lifeboats are fine and pretty useful, especially the new ones. But not really as good and capable as the ship/sub itself. And certainly as not good as dry land. Especially if there are injured/sick people who need to be attended to quickly.

Which leads to the final part. Yes, other IN assets and merchant ships can be, and are frequently called on, to help. But we must really be willing to push our luck if we believe that they will always be around nearby the incident site, then competent enough to carry the rescue operations and finally quick and capable enough to divert from their original destination to take the survivors to our shores or rendezvous with our assets

Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 17 Dec 2017 20:18

Looking at major sub tragedies in the past, Thresher,Scorpion of the USN, 3 Sov.subs , K-9,Komsomolets and Kursk, locating some of them took years.I think the Scorpion at depths of almost 100000ft.
If a sub is on patrol , on a highly classified mission and not in frequent common., locating it will be like hunting for the proverbial needle in the haystack.In the case of the Argie sub, they knew its route back to base , that it was having problems and yet have still not found it.There are now lots of rumours that it was being tracked by RN assets , etc. and that the Argie Navy is hiding facts...just like the missing Malaysian airliner.

The Kursk sank in relatively shallower waters and was part of an exercise.Its location was known.In deeper waters, unless the sub is able to deploy emergency buoys or send commons., hunting for a missing sub would be virtually impossible if no debris surfaces.

Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 17 Dec 2017 20:33

Facing challenge at sea, navy embarks on long road to upgrade chopper fleet
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... VDMxL.html

Navy’s push for 24 multi-role helicopters worth Rs 10,000 crore is aimed at adding more air power.

Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 18 Dec 2017 00:02

Do they have the money for 24 new Helicopter and 57 Aircraft and the long pending list of MCVC , MPA ....list is long and every year they add one new thing to that list. Next year we will hear of plans to procure 100 plus naval LUH

Aditya G
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya G » 18 Dec 2017 16:53

Austin wrote:Do they have the money for 24 new Helicopter and 57 Aircraft and the long pending list of MCVC , MPA ....list is long and every year they add one new thing to that list. Next year we will hear of plans to procure 100 plus naval LUH


IMO the list looks long only because MOD is unable to execute contracts leading to a high inventory of tenders.

In 2015 & 2016 we did not sign any new ship building contract for example.

Specifically for helicopters, this has been a total PIA for IAF, IN and IA. Hopefully with Ka-226 and LUH coming around we will see some rapid movement on this.

jaysimha
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby jaysimha » 25 Dec 2017 16:06

NAVAL AVIATION INDIGENISATION ROADMAP (2017-2022)
( MBD - if-RP)
https://www.indiannavy.nic.in/sites/def ... 017-22.pdf

JTull
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JTull » 19 Jan 2018 02:16

Did IN employ the concept described in this article?

shipborne rolling vertical landing (SRVL)

Akshay Kapoor
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 19 Jan 2018 03:03

Austin wrote:Do they have the money for 24 new Helicopter and 57 Aircraft and the long pending list of MCVC , MPA ....list is long and every year they add one new thing to that list. Next year we will hear of plans to procure 100 plus naval LUH


What’s the point of having ASW corvettes without it’s primary ASW asset - the chopper. What’s the point P15 A B with capacity for ASW 2 choppers not carrying even one. It’s so sad it’s not even a joke. We are ASW naked in an environment teeming with subs.

And we are sub naked too. Might as well just use navy for piracy patrols and rescue from Yemen missions if this is to persist. It certainly cannot fight adversary in this state.

Aditya you are right.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 19 Jan 2018 04:48

I think the navy should get 36-48 ASW (MH-60S) copters in a g2g deal and be done with it. It will take time to get 9-10 ton copter going on our end since HAL Is focusing on the 12-16ton space at the moment. Don't bother with 24 and options. Just get all you need to replace and factor in some growth as well.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 19 Jan 2018 05:43

^^^
As an interim, N-ALH would have provided some relief until imports came along. Not perfect but not naked :twisted:

Image
Image
Image

Cybaru
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 19 Jan 2018 05:54

Especially if they cut the torps from 2 to 1 and are okay with 2-3 hour on station time. Perhaps dhruv could be fitted larger fuel tanks and really optimized for sea level stuff.

Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 19 Jan 2018 06:02

^absolutely. This stupidity had crossed all bounds. We're fielding assets worth billions of dollars without essential equipment that makes them very vulnerable to a rather nasty environment getting increasing sub traffic.

Make do with the dhruvs and get those Canadian choppers

srai
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 19 Jan 2018 06:16

All or nothing approach ... seeing that time and time again.

By the time new imported "perfect" platforms arrives, more than a decade would have gone by. Plus, add in time 5-years for deliveries of required quantities and attaining FOC with the service. Plenty of room for interim approaches to address immediate platform shortfalls during those lean years (~15 years). After that point, the interim solutions would act as secondary reserves, which the IN has none of.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 19 Jan 2018 06:24

Is it not possible to accommodate 3 dhruvs instead of the 2 large choppers at the moment on the ships? Till then maybe they add more resources to get same level of service? This might be a stupid question, but just asking.

srai
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 19 Jan 2018 06:25

^^^
Even one Dhruv would be a big improvement in the current situation of not enough of the few old ASW choppers remaining for all the capital ships.

Definitely an improvement over this setup
Image

Singha
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 19 Jan 2018 06:40

Defer that 57 plane fantasy for now and get some sh60 seahawks from us navy stocks if we can in a fms deal. Stop this global tender boo boo. Replace them with fresh build when oem delivers.

Also develop the naval dhruv with necessary sonobuoy mission station and er fuel tanks for our larger opv ships and corvettes while leeping the bigger seahawk for ffg and ddg. The naval djruv can also operate off the auxiliary ships and carrier and also from land bases to sanitize nearby sea lanes and harbours. Atleast 100 are reqd if you consider island territories also

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 19 Jan 2018 07:05

The other thing to do is do start working on 6 8-7.5 ton extended dhruv. The arriden engines have grown 25-30% (3g version being used on ka62).Make navy primary customer and optimize it for sea level ops. Keep everything same except grow it for payload and fuel and optimization for under 10k ops and get this puppy out in under 3 years. 4 hour loiter time with 1.5-2 ton payload (2 torps + dunking sonar kit + consoles + 2 extra operators) Funny thing will be the paperwork will take longer than r&d and producing prototypes!


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