Indian Naval Aviation

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 13 Jan 2023 18:21

Cyrano, please be aware of difference between AMCA and TEDBF.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 16 Jan 2023 10:31

The missing IFR probe seems like a glaring mistake to me. All the renders I have seen so far do not show an IFR.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 16 Jan 2023 11:00

Hello All,

Can anyone tell me why this iteration of the LCA is also capped at Mach 1.6?

I thought the TEDBF is a high sea interceptor and not a point defence fighter.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 16 Jan 2023 19:22

Do combat loaded aircraft fly over mach 2 that much?

IIRC recently there were some reports opened to the general public which showed the mach 2+ capable (clean and high) F15s spent less than 10% operational flying time going over even mach 1.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Jan 2023 19:51

Speed is related to the performance of air to air missile launch and subsequent performance.

Along with the ability to evade enemies air defence.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Jan 2023 01:19

Bala Vignesh wrote:The missing IFR probe seems like a glaring mistake to me. All the renders I have seen so far do not show an IFR.

Wouldnt IFR conflict with the radome G requirement for low observable?
Most likely IFR would be retractable.

Kartik so if this is PDR then wat are the next steps?

Please list them for our education.
Thanks, ramana

Is IN involved with the PDR?

titash · Post by **titash** » 18 Jan 2023 05:07

Some people must have noticed that Rahul Bedi no longer is the Jane's correspondent for India. Has resulted in a marked reduction in critical text that Rahul Bedi would always insert, that would claim this or that negative thing about indigenous developments.

Bedi-man does his BS-ing on Sidharth Varadarajan’s The Wire these days…possibly the most vile Modi-phobic, Hindu-phobic, and India-phobic “news” portal there is

Birds of a feather flock together

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Jan 2023 19:02

Bala Vignesh wrote:The missing IFR probe seems like a glaring mistake to me. All the renders I have seen so far do not show an IFR.

Will most likely be a retractable probe. Not putting one on a model doesn't mean that it's omitted!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Jan 2023 19:04

Maria wrote:Hello All,

Can anyone tell me why this iteration of the LCA is also capped at Mach 1.6?

I thought the TEDBF is a high sea interceptor and not a point defence fighter.

Fixed intakes versus movable intakes primarily. Besides, Mach 1.6 is plenty..if it wasn't the users (the IN in this case) would clearly set their requirements accordingly.

What makes you think it is a point defence fighter?! It's bigger than a Rafale for God's sake!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Jan 2023 19:14

ramana wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:The missing IFR probe seems like a glaring mistake to me. All the renders I have seen so far do not show an IFR.

Wouldnt IFR conflict with the radome G requirement for low observable?
Most likely IFR would be retractable.

Kartik so if this is PDR then wat are the next steps?

Please list them for our education.
Thanks, ramana

Is IN involved with the PDR?

Retractable probe will adequately take care of low observable requirements.

Ramana ji, PDR completion would basically mean that the design OML is for all intents and purposes frozen and the system and sub-system level design is also mostly done. Many of the drawings would be ready and some of the documentation would be either in work or ready. Aircraft design is such a multi-disciplinary thing, with CFD, Wind tunnel results, electrical design, structural design and stress analysis, manufacturing constraints, engine dynamics, etc..all these have to be thought of and a representation made to the relevant authorities by the TEDBF teams.

The IN is most definitely going to be deeply involved in the Preliminary Design Review, since peer reviews are a part and parcel of such reviews. The various systems and sub-systems are all reviewed and if found suitable, given the go ahead. My participation in such reviews during my time on a couple of civilian aircraft programs was as a stress engineer, but I clearly recall the level of details that were presented to the authorities, which in that case involved FAA representatives. In the TEDBF's case it'll be CEMILAC folks that will also be involved to ensure that certification regulations have been adhered to.

Once clearance is given, the teams would then go into detailed design of several parts, systems, structures, etc. The next goal would then be to get it all done and ready by the time the CDR is scheduled.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Jan 2023 19:16

naraswami wrote:
ramana wrote:
Is IN involved with the PDR?
Both the end customer IN (product requirements) and production partner are involved and have significant approval authority - less at CDR (Conceptual) but more so at PDR (Preliminary). Many times CDRs/PDRs are passed with provisional items/actions to be completed on a branch (and reviewed for closure later) that need more work so they dont impede progress.

Certainly before PDR freeze, both IN and the production agency has had significant input on induction requirements and manufacturability assessments - and their interface owners/engineers have been working with design teams (ADA) to qualify and estimate compliance with stated product maturation, rollout plans.

CDR stands for Critical Design Review not Conceptual Design Review.. and follows Preliminary Design Review. Not the other way around!

CDR clearance mostly is the last hurdle before prototyping is initiated.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 18 Jan 2023 19:18

titash wrote:
Some people must have noticed that Rahul Bedi no longer is the Jane's correspondent for India. Has resulted in a marked reduction in critical text that Rahul Bedi would always insert, that would claim this or that negative thing about indigenous developments.
Bedi-man does his BS-ing on Sidharth Varadarajan’s The Wire these days…possibly the most vile Modi-phobic, Hindu-phobic, and India-phobic “news” portal there is

Birds of a feather flock together

Amen to that..glad to see his back from Janes. The Wire and The Caravan are openly anti-Hindu, anti-Modi, anti-BJP.. they don't even bother to try to make it look subtle..

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 19 Jan 2023 09:30

naraswami wrote:Karthik - minor nit. my understanding is either of the Design Reviews can be designated as "Critical Design Reviews" - or an inbetween called as a milestone. Any normal product development stage gate process has fixed Conceptual, Prelim, Detailed Design reviews

Kartik is right. As per DoD-STD 2167A practice, the sequence is PDR (Preliminary Design Review), DDR (Detailed Design Review) and CDR (Critical Design Review), in that order. Each DR has, as a necessary prerequisite, the successful completion of any previous reviews as well as successfully implemented Action Items from said reviews. All interested parties (especially including the customer) have to sign off on these prerequisites before the next DR can be contemplated.

I don't know where you get this "conceptual" thing from, but the term doesn't exist as an official milestone in 2167A.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jan 2023 21:03

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... XPh8Q9Wwug --->

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Jan 2023 21:13

https://twitter.com/ThingsNavy/status/1 ... XPh8Q9Wwug --->

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jan 2023 20:22

X-Post from the Joint Military Exercises thread…

Cyrano wrote:Was that a Mig29K landing on CDG ?

I read that it was a touch and go. Landing on the CDG is one thing, but taking off could be dangerous for the pilot.

The CDG uses steam catapult to launch aircraft and the MiG-29K’s airframe is anything but robust. A steam catapult launch from the CDG could severely weaken the MiG-29K airframe.

Disclaimer - Below is my inference only.

Worst case scenario - the aircraft could break up on launch. A scenario best avoided. Ski jump take off and arrestor landing on the Vikramaditya has done quite a number on the airframe, just imagine what a catapult launch will do. Perhaps they can dial down the pressure from the steam catapult to permit a take off, but I am guessing now.

The Russians surely hamstrung us on this entire purchase. The Vikramaditya is back out at sea. Let’s see how long she lasts before she has to go back in again.

Ex Varuna 2023 was a familiarization experience for the MiG-29K air and ground crew on the Rafale M which is reportedly the navy’s choice of MRCBF. I heard that a number of this A&G crew went aboard the CDG to see the Rafale M up close.

This would make sense as the Vikrant is due for her first operational deployment in August 2023 and reportedly the French Navy are willing to lease a few Rafale Ms from their own limited stock of 40+ airframes till the Indian ones arrive.

Would be embarrassing to have the Vikrant head out for her first deployment without any reliable naval fighters.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 21 Jan 2023 21:11

Rakesh wrote:
This would make sense as the Vikrant is due for her first operational deployment in August 2023 and reportedly the French Navy are willing to lease a few Rafale Ms from their own limited stock of 40+ airframes till the Indian ones arrive.

So any Idea on how many can the French be willing to Lease. Since the CDG needs a min of 30, will they be willing to lease the remaining 10.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jan 2023 21:36

There were reports of 4 - 5 aircraft, but will have to wait for an official announcement.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 22 Jan 2023 04:22

Rakesh wrote:There were reports of 4 - 5 aircraft, but will have to wait for an official announcement.

I guess it also depends on how much will the lease cost and how much we are prepared to budget for it.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 22 Jan 2023 04:40

i think the french said they will give 3. Do not know where other numbers are coming from.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 22 Jan 2023 17:32

I'm for ordering half a squadron of NLCAs which have proven themselves on carrier landings and take offs, as a plan B solution to train pilots and crews on carrier ops on Vicky and Vikrant. They may have a lot of limitations but if we dont put them into the roles envisaged for Rafale M or Mig 29K, and use them as advanced carrier compatible trainers + a limited role fighter, then whats the problem. Sea Hawk and Sea Harrier were single engine, weren't they ?

Even currently trained pilots need practice, at some point of time they will retire. How will we train pilots & crews for 2 carriers, perhaps even a third? On SBTF only ? Or in foreign lands ? Or in shiny new Rafales whenever they come and wear out their life in the process?

Even a short legged NLCA is preferable to sailing Vikrant out to sea without any fighters to carry.
JMT...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Jan 2023 22:32

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... pItwKGt7Gw ---> Indian Navy MH-60R Romeo.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Jan 2023 03:37

Tweet is from the former C-in-C Western and Southern Naval Command, Indian Navy.

https://twitter.com/girish_luthra/statu ... R9YuHhwtEg ---> Grateful for the opportunity to spend some time with a very professional and spirited team of Indian Navy's new multi-role helicopters, MH-60R.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Jan 2023 11:56

Rakesh wrote:X-Post from the Joint Military Exercises thread…

Cyrano wrote:Was that a Mig29K landing on CDG ?
I read that it was a touch and go. Landing on the CDG is one thing, but taking off could be dangerous for the pilot.

The CDG uses steam catapult to launch aircraft and the MiG-29K’s airframe is anything but robust. A steam catapult launch from the CDG could severely weaken the MiG-29K airframe.

Disclaimer - Below is my inference only.

Worst case scenario - the aircraft could break up on launch. A scenario best avoided. Ski jump take off and arrestor landing on the Vikramaditya has done quite a number on the airframe, just imagine what a catapult launch will do. Perhaps they can dial down the pressure from the steam catapult to permit a take off, but I am guessing now.

A MiG-29K cannot be launched using the steam catapult! It lacks the type of nose wheel arrangement (launch bar and hold back bar) that all catapult launched fighters have, that allows for it to be launched using a steam/EM catapult. It's nose wheel, as well as that of the Naval LCA are simpler, being designed for STOBAR.

The launch bar on the nose wheel of CATOBAR fighters and aircraft hooks onto the catapult's shuttle, which is the part of the catapult that drags the airplane forward when released.

Besides, it requires careful calibration of the steam catapult to know exactly what pressure of steam would be required to catapult any given fighter into the air. It would never be attempted for the first time off a deck without studies being done to understand this requirement.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 23 Jan 2023 19:01

Thanks Kartik for making it amply clear why the MiG-29K cannot be launched using a steam catapult.

I was told that the MiG-29K did do a touch and go or something to that effect on the CDG. Hopefully somebody made a video of that event and it pops up on YouTube or Twitter.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 31 Jan 2023 06:13

https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... RA9IKDyGMQ ---> Indian Navy MH-60R Romeo. Photo by Brandon Thetford.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 06 Feb 2023 17:10

Rakesh wrote:Thanks Kartik for making it amply clear why the MiG-29K cannot be launched using a steam catapult.

I was told that the MiG-29K did do a touch and go or something to that effect on the CDG. Hopefully somebody made a video of that event and it pops up on YouTube or Twitter.

https://youtu.be/QHkyl9Ekfss?t=61 Pics..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Feb 2023 08:26

A nice picture of a line up of MiG-29Ks, likely at INS Hansa in Dabolim, Goa.

Image Source: https://www.ajaishukla.com/2023/02/defe ... f-gdp.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Feb 2023 09:21

Cyrano wrote:I'm for ordering half a squadron of NLCAs which have proven themselves on carrier landings and take offs, as a plan B solution to train pilots and crews on carrier ops on Vicky and Vikrant. They may have a lot of limitations but if we dont put them into the roles envisaged for Rafale M or Mig 29K, and use them as advanced carrier compatible trainers + a limited role fighter, then whats the problem. Sea Hawk and Sea Harrier were single engine, weren't they ?

Even currently trained pilots need practice, at some point of time they will retire. How will we train pilots & crews for 2 carriers, perhaps even a third? On SBTF only ? Or in foreign lands ? Or in shiny new Rafales whenever they come and wear out their life in the process?

Even a short legged NLCA is preferable to sailing Vikrant out to sea without any fighters to carry.
JMT...

Cyrano, Two things. The fuel capacity and excess weight for the landing gear area. This was done to be conservative. The second big thing is engines. All F404 engines are spoken for.
Same effort spent in fast tracking the TEDBF is better spent.

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 15 Feb 2023 20:21

Livefist replying to member @KSingh on Twitter, confirms that Katrina in swimwear incoming.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/162 ... 90880?s=20
Here is the full story:
Indian Navy Greenflags Rafale In Deck Jet Contest
Pen to paper expected this year as per this report.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Feb 2023 20:28

MeshaVishwas wrote:Livefist replying to member @KSingh on Twitter, confirms that Katrina in swimwear incoming.
https://twitter.com/livefist/status/162 ... 90880?s=20

Saar, we need to find this story. Shiv Aroor is stating that he met with Admirals of the Indian Navy at Aero India 2023, who confirmed to him that the Rafale M has won the MRCBF contest. I find it surprising that the Navy will reveal this to a member of the press before releasing an official announcement. Will wait for official confirmation.

https://twitter.com/VivekSi85847001/sta ... 14788?s=20 ---> According to Livefist India Today story, what he get from Top Brass of Navy during Aero India that Navy has Green Signal Rafale M to the MOD.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Feb 2023 20:36

From the Livefist twitter account....that is the Vice Chief of Naval Staff, Vice Admiral SN Ghormade, at Aero India 2023. The Vice Chief has been the most vocal on the MRCBF contest to date.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/162 ... 70818?s=20 ---> The Indian Navy Vice Chief gets a briefing at the MBDA stand at Aero India 23. MBDA products contend in a slew of naval contests including P-75I, naval SRSAM, anti-ship, Rafale/M, et al.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Feb 2023 20:36

@Mesha Saar: Check this out

If what Livefist is reporting is true, wow is all I can say.

Indian Navy Greenflags Rafale In Deck Jet Contest
https://www.livefistdefence.com/indian- ... t-contest/
15 Feb 2023

Livefist can confirm that the Indian Navy has formally indicated to the Indian Ministry of Defence that the Rafale meets more of its requirements than the only other contender in the fray, Boeing’s F/A-18 Super Hornet. While Indian defence contracting has been notorious for the distance — and pitfalls — between contest win and contract award, top Indian Navy sources said that the Rafale “has this one”.

Indications of the Super Hornet being edged out by the Rafale come after years of headwinds where both competing aircraft have fought to prove compatibility with the Indian Navy’s aircraft carriers. It appears that by the end, the Rafale merely proved to be more compatible than the F/A-18, though the finer details of the analysis are unclear.

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Feb 2023 20:52

Is that the reason for the Lightning strike in this Aero India..

Kind of like 'hey guys check what is next in line for you if you go for the rhinos'

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Feb 2023 20:56

Manish_P wrote:Is that the reason for the Lightning strike in this Aero India..

Kind of like 'hey guys check what is next in line for you if you go for the rhinos'

Visit this ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&start=2880#p2579354

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Feb 2023 21:01

Rakesh wrote:
Manish_P wrote:Is that the reason for the Lightning strike in this Aero India..

Kind of like 'hey guys check what is next in line for you if you go for the rhinos'
Visit this ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7634&start=2880#p2579354

Ah. So it's about the reptile more than the mammal.

Too much arrogance on part of the cowboys if they thought that we, the original snake charmers, would be awed by a viper...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Feb 2023 21:08

Good one Saar.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Feb 2023 01:24

From the link...

https://www.financialexpress.com/defenc ... f/2979870/

Q. There are reports that there are servicing problems with the MH-60R helicopters. Your comments.

A. Sikorsky, a Lockheed Martin Company, has delivered the first six MH-60R maritime helicopters to the Indian Navy within just three years. In that same timeframe, the US Navy has trained a squadron of IN pilots using three aircraft in San Diego, California. Introduction of the second batch of three aircraft in Kochi is underway. The balance of the 24 aircraft will be delivered to the US Navy through 2024. For specific questions, we would request you to kindly refer this to the Indian and US Navies since the MH-60R contract is under the Foreign Military Sales program of the US Government.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Feb 2023 21:35

https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1 ... 62016?s=20 ---> Brochure for CABS MRMR aircraft being developed for the Indian Navy & MMMA aircraft for the Indian Coast Guard. Both are based on the Airbus C-295.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Feb 2023 21:43

https://twitter.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1 ... 19872?s=20 ---> CABS MRMR & MMMA aircraft will have an EO/IR system for maritime surveillance.