Indian Naval Aviation

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ManuJ
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ManuJ »

Rakesh wrote:Once the F-18 trials are over, then it will be left up to to the Indian Navy to decide which is the better platform of the two. Cost will be just one of many factors that will come into play in the final decision.
It won't be a IN decision, but IN will provide inputs and recommendations.
This will be a strategic decision at the cabinet level.
Unless there are some real technical limitations (e.g. not fitting on the lift), Rafale should win. Rafale's win will also exponentially increase the chances of getting more of them for the IAF.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ManuJ wrote:It won't be a IN decision, but IN will provide inputs and recommendations.
This will be a strategic decision at the cabinet level.
Unless there are some real technical limitations (e.g. not fitting on the lift), Rafale should win. Rafale's win will also exponentially increase the chances of getting more of them for the IAF.
No Sir, the decision is an IN one because it is a technical decision. The MoD's Defence Procurement Policy has not changed that process. Remember 27 April 2011? That was the technical down select of the Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon from all the MMRCA 1.0 contestants. Despite the fact that in terms of raw strategic value, the US "appeared" to be a better bet. In hindsight, we now know that turned out to be *NOT* true. But that is a whole other discussion and not relevant to this thread. The L1 down select then occurred on 31 Jan 2012, which resulted in the Rafale. But it is only after the technical downselect on 27 April 2011, did the MoD (Babus + Raksha Mantri) take over.

The strategic decision comes after the technical downselect, not before. To interject in that process would be akin to the Govt taking a loaded shotgun, handing it to the opposition, telling them to aim at the Govt's forehead and pull the trigger. That is pure political suicide. I am sure you remember when RaGa held a press conference with a "doctored" MoD document to show that the Prime Minister's Office deliberately interfered with the Rafale negotiations. The MoD then had to produce the entire document with then Raksha Mantri Manohar Parrikar's note at the bottom. That squashed that argument. Had it not, there would be no Rafale today in the IAF.

Every I and T is documented in the procurement process in the MoD. Notes are made as they move from desk to desk and even from meetings. So if the Govt interferes in the process (prior to the technical downselect), that will be documented in the file...as the DG-Air (IAS, not IAF, officer) wrote in the Rafale file. Once that is documented, then it is game over. The opposition can then readily claim that the Govt wants one OEM to be favoured over another. So if the Govt wants a closer defence relationship with France and favours the Rafale (for that sole reason), they have to cross their fingers and hope that the Rafale wins the technical contest. Already the stain of Anil Ambani is hanging over the Rafale deal and the RaGa-led Congress is in no mood to stop that onslaught.

And Rafale winning the technical contest is by no means guaranteed. The F-18E/F is a formidable competitor and holds some very significant technical advantages over the Rafale. Larger AESA, longer airframe life, more powerful turbofans, wider array of weaponry which will be cheaper, etc. If the Rafale does end up winning, there will have to be other technical areas in which the Rafale ended up on top. While I personally don't see that happening, the Indian Navy will be the final arbiter on the matter. The end user is not the GOI, it is the service purchasing the platform. So their decision is vital for the process to move ahead. Any further inputs and recommendations are provided once negotiations start with the chosen OEM, just like the IAF did in the Rafale acquisition. A number of IAF officers provided their inputs and recommendations in those negotiations, because of a variety of technical requirements (India Specific Enhancements basically) were incorporated on the Rafale.

The one lesson that is very quickly learnt in the hallowed halls of Indian Government is this ---> In the hierarchy of life there are three levels and they are (in order of importance);

1) Indian Administrative Service
2) The Almighty Himself
3) The rest of us

While there is reform occurring in the IAS - by this Govt - it is largely due to the nod and approval of the IAS themselves. Where the Govt can legally intervene is in the cost of the overall deal and the subsequent strategic benefits that come with it. But getting involved in the technical downselect is not something any Govt would do.

If the Rafale does end up winning, it will not be smooth sailing. RaGa will be frothing at the mouth, have conniption fits and conduct voodoo rituals outside Parliament with a Modi doll. All sorts of accusations will be levelled at the government, in the desperate hope that something - any damn thing - will stick. The Govt has to tread really carefully here and ensure that the process was followed in a sacrosanct manner.

Whoever wins this contest - Rafale or F-18 - will be because it was the Indian Navy that chose the platform. No one else.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by LakshmanPST »

If Navy says that both Rafale and F18 are technically acceptable, then it will be interesting...
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by srin »

I can't imagine that there is no role for strategic events in the selection - CAATSA for one.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cyrano »

There will be, not by IAF but by CDS + cabinet committee headed by PM.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

LakshmanPST wrote:If Navy says that both Rafale and F18 are technically acceptable, then it will be interesting...
Both are already technically acceptable. Even the lift issue has been resolved. No point in Rafale going through the trials, if she could not fit in the lifts. But there is something like a point system that the services use to determine which closely meets the requirements. Whoever wins that contest (gets the highest points), will be given the red rose.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

srin wrote:I can't imagine that there is no role for strategic events in the selection - CAATSA for one.
Any meaningful strategic discussions happen post technical downselect. No Babu in the IAS or the PMO or any politician in India is qualified to lecture the Indian Navy on carrier borne operations. That is their baby and they have over 6+ decades of experience in it. The Navy is also playing the strategic game - who is the more reliable OEM over the life of the aircraft? I have over-simplified that question, but that will be a very important point for the Navy to consider.

While the armed forces in India do not formulate Indian foreign policy, they are not blind to the geopolitics either. The CAG report on MMRCA 1.0 clearly stated that the IAF had big reservations over the F-16IN and the F-18SH, because of fear of sanctions. That is as official as a document can get in the GOI. But that was conveyed to the then GOI in private. The IAF never held a press conference stating that.

But that having being said, if the IN had any difficulty over acquiring American maal, they would not have inducted the P-8I or the MH-60R. If it is F-18E/F that the Indian Navy chooses, then F-18E/F it is. The only way that can be turned down by the GOI, if some dramatic policy shift or change happens with GOTUS. So something like CAATSA. I am confident that the American MIC will not allow that to happen, regardless of what the Democrats in the US Congress and the Biden Administration feel about India’s relationship with Russia. Even POTUS obliges the American MIC.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Cyrano wrote:There will be, not by IAF but by CDS + cabinet committee headed by PM.
Exactly. Well said. But I think you mean IN?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cyrano »

Sorry meant IN !
ManuJ
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ManuJ »

Rakesh wrote:
ManuJ wrote:It won't be a IN decision, but IN will provide inputs and recommendations.
This will be a strategic decision at the cabinet level.
Unless there are some real technical limitations (e.g. not fitting on the lift), Rafale should win. Rafale's win will also exponentially increase the chances of getting more of them for the IAF.
No Sir, the decision is an IN one because it is a technical decision.
....
The strategic decision comes after the technical downselect, not before.
If the strategic decision follows the technical downselect, then how is it IN's decision?
As I said, IN will provide recommendations, final decision will be taken at a political level.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ManuJ wrote:If the strategic decision follows the technical downselect, then how is it IN's decision?
If the GOI has a preference for one OEM (on the sole basis of a strategic partnership), but the Indian Navy chooses the other OEM....what is the technical argument that the GOI is going to give? What merit - if any - will those arguments hold with the Indian Navy? Please drop the notion that both platforms will be on the table for the GOI to decide. There will be only one.

If the F-18 ultimately scores higher than the Rafale, what the GOI thinks at that point is largely irrelevant. So if the Indian Navy says the data clearly illustrates that the F-18 scored higher in the trials, who in the IAS (upon direction of the Govt) will override that decision? Assuming such a decision is made and a change is then documented in the file, the Indian Navy will raise a hue and cry over it. That will eventually find its way out to the media. There has to be some reasonable argument i.e. CAATSA sanctions (or something similar) that the US has imposed upon India. But in the absence of anything of that nature, what choice does the GOI have to change that decision? The only thing left, is to scrap the contest.

The strategic decision you are referring to is made after the platform is chosen by the service, in this case the Indian Navy. Any strategic benefits that either France or the US offers is only seriously entertained (and negotiated upon) post the technical downselect. Going back to the MMRCA 1.0 contest, a lot of strategic benefits were offered by all the competitors. But that was set aside, till the technical downselect was completed. No one in the GOI or any MoD Babu participated in that. That was a 100% IAF-led effort. It is the same story here.

It is the IN's decision because they are choosing the platform, not the GOI. This should not be hard to understand :)

This same confusion was there with the US defence analysts who were puzzled with the IAF's decision to not select an American fighter in MMRCA 1.0 and also when the SE fighter contest was cancelled in favour of the current 114 MRFA contest. In the US, defence transactions are the result of a strategic & geopolitical partnership between the US and the partner nation. Defence transactions serve as an extension arm of US foreign policy. That is not how it works in India. Until that disconnect is addressed, the US will continue to be confused.

For the MRFA contest, Boeing has partnered with Mahindra and HAL; Lockheed Martin has partnered with Tata; Dassault has partnered with DRAL; Saab has partnered with Adani, etc. Each of them are offering the the sun, the moon and the stars to the GOI. But first the technical trials have to be completed and a technical downselect made. Only then comes in the MoD and the GOI to negotiate with the OEM and the host nation on the range of strategic benefits that can be squeezed out of them in exchange for billions of dollars.
ManuJ wrote:As I said, IN will provide recommendations, final decision will be taken at a political level.
The IN will provide recommendations on the kit that will come on the F-18 or Rafale M. The IN will also partner with the MoD in the cost negotiation committee as well. The IN also decides on the final number to be acquired. That number can be revised upon or down, on budgetary availability. But no one in the Govt or in MoD will tell the Indian Navy which is the better platform. In the same vein, issues such as an assembly factory, a MROU facility or some non-defence related strategic benefit are taken up between the two govts.

For example, it was recently reported that the GOI and France have agreed for a JV to develop a 110kN turbofan for the AMCA program. The IAF has no say in this issue and this was a discussion taken at a Govt level. That is a strategic matter between two govts and was announced when FM Jaishankar visited France recently. A formal agreement is reportedly due for signing later this year. Once the program is underway, then GTRE & Safran will bring in engineering officers from the IAF to advise on a number of technical requirements and aspects.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by brar_w »

FWIW, I was recently at n event with one of Boeing SL's lead ex-exec who was very high up in their naval programs (hornet/SH) through 2018 and he seems to think that they have a far better chance in Germany than India. Given they have limited time before they sunset production this might be a true assessment. I guess we'll see but he doesn't seem to think that Boeing is that bullish on F/A-18 for the IN. Certainly not as good as they felt for the IAF prospects years ago.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh, the government of India signs the cheque. The decision to go ahead with the procurement or not always belongs with the government.

Having said all that, it's quite possible that regardless of what the Navy selected. The government has decided to acquire the Rafale.

In order for the IN combat capacity not limited by US political considerations.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cyrano »

The way I understood it, after some years on BRF: The evaluation of some high value foreign equipment is a step by step process.

- Requirements and performance expectations are specified by the force (IA/IAF/IN) in GSQR.
- If no Indian product meets/exceeds GSQR, then a global RFI/RFP is launched
- Received bids are evaluated for on paper compliance to RFP needs, those that fall short are eliminated.
- As needed trials and other evaluations are conducted, again any that fall short are eliminated.
- The bidders remaining can be considered "technically qualified", and based on evaluation results they are ranked 1.2.3... by the force, 1 being most desirable, but the force will be happy any of these bidders is finally chosen.

- Now it gets out of the force's hands, MoD will check financial bids, offset requirements if any, contractual T&Cs.
- There can be elimination at this stage too if there is a major noncompliance/inflexibility wrt non-technical requirements
- MoD then moves on to price negotiations, life cycle cost analysis, additional synergies etc, they may loop back with the forces for specific clarifications, payment terms, contractual terms, legalese etc. and in the end again gives its own ranking 1.2.3...

- Overall, all the bids still standing at this stage will fall somewhere on a 2x2 matrix.
- Any bid thats ranked (1,1) or (1,2) or (2,1) - but rarely beyond that I suppose, will go with a recommendation summary note to CDS + cabinet committee headed by the PM for final decision.
- Its at this last stage that any geo-political/strategic considerations may be assessed, again the committee may go back to the forces for clarifications if needed.
- Final decision taken by the Committee, either to award the contract to one of the recommended bidders or be scrapped.
- Either decision is not taken lightly (especially under this Govt), especially scrapping since that would result in a disappointed force that has to wait longer to achieve/preserve a certain capability which is obviously of national interest.

This is what I've understood from news reports, media interviews and discussions on BRF, I have no first hand or intimate knowledge of the process from any official source. Of course the evaluation process, results and summary put up in the end depends on how deep and wide the field of suppliers is for that requirement.

Like Brar_W ji said, that doesn't prevent any potential supplier from getting a sense of where their chances stand at a given point of time. They know what the requirements are, and they know how they've performed against them.

Gurus like Rakesh ji can correct if I got anything wrong.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

Pratyush wrote:Rakesh, the government of India signs the cheque. The decision to go ahead with the procurement or not always belongs with the government.

Having said all that, it's quite possible that regardless of what the Navy selected. The government has decided to acquire the Rafale.

In order for the IN combat capacity not limited by US political considerations.
Originally, the IN wanted the naval rafale.

Fundamentally, I don't think that their position has changed.

The IN was overtaken by circumstances beyond its control and had no option but to make the best of the fait accompli imposed on them

The carriers need lift and other modifications to accept the naval rafale.

It will be expensive and may break some budget allocations for a few financial years

But any rafale acquisition will impact us, price wise as well as capability wise as the economics of a possible (IN +IAF) bulk deal start to kick in.

The deal needs to be concluded during Modi's tenure as the frenchies are very amenable to dealing with him
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:Rakesh, the government of India signs the cheque. The decision to go ahead with the procurement or not always belongs with the government.

Having said all that, it's quite possible that regardless of what the Navy selected. The government has decided to acquire the Rafale.
Pratyush, the govt indeed signs the cheque...but the service chooses the platform. If Rafale is what the Indian Navy wants...then Rafale is what the Indian Navy will get. But the same is equally true for the F-18 as well. See chetak's post above. Even prior to the IAF, it was the Navy that was eying the Rafale. And again as chetak said, it appears that Rafale is what they are gunning for. From the IAF's perspective, it makes sense for the Navy to go in for the Rafale, as it increases the odds of the IAF also getting more Rafales onlee. And like all air forces the world over, they hate the concept of aircraft carriers. This idea of a MROU facility for the Rafale also lends credence to the theory that Rafale is the best option, that both the IAF and IN sees.

But the IN's trials have to be completed and the scores have to be tabulated. At the end of that process - if the F-18 scored higher than the Rafale - there will have to be some compelling and valid reason (i.e. CAATSA) for the IN and the GOI to reject the F-18 and go in for the Rafale. The opposition will not let that go otherwise. Post the 2022 assembly elections, the situation is very bleak for the Congress in 2024 and beyond. They need a reason to stay politically alive and portray to the Indian electorate, an alternative to the BJP Govt. So the Govt has to ensure that everything is followed to the letter in this contest. Any deviation can give the opposition a thread to hold on to and yell corruption.

So if Boeing comes out on top, it is certainly the government's prerogative to cancel the contest (assuming that the GOI believes that France is more valuable). But there is no evidence of that and we will be making some conjectures. Best avoided. But if cancelled, the Navy is back at square one. The TEDBF is more than a decade away, the MiG-29K is a hangar queen and the Naval Tejas Mk 1 is not suitable for carrier borne operations. So the Navy will then have to wave goodbye to aircraft carriers for at least a decade. Will the Navy be amenable to such a decision? Or they can choose a platform to act as a stop gap till the TEDBF arrives.

IMVHO, Boeing has made some masterful moves in both the MRFA and MRCBF contests. They are;

1) Tie Up with Mahindra and HAL for the 114 MRFA contest. The HAL bit is crucial, as it plays right into RaGa's main accusation in the Rafale deal - that the Modi Govt stole jobs from HAL and gave it to Anil Ambani. While there is not a shred of truth to that accusation, it has stuck. In reality - if Boeing wins the MRFA contest - all the significant work will be done by Mahindra and HAL will do screwdrivergiri. But no one will be the wiser. And HAL will gleefully do screwdrivergiri and call it 100% indigenous.

2) Hire a naval officer (and that too a carrier borne pilot) to lead Boeing in India. He knows the ins and outs of Indian defence procurement and is acquainted with all the senior leadership in the Navy. Some are his contemporaries and many others are his juniors. I believe he was among the first to land the MiG-29K aboard the Vikramaditya. He is a seasoned naval combat pilot and is well versed with carrier borne operations. He will advise Boeing on exactly what needs to be done, in order to prevail in the contest.
Pratyush wrote:In order for the IN combat capacity not limited by US political considerations.
Is that why the Indian Navy is inducting the MH-60R? Has 12 P-8Is in her fleet? The first batch of MH-60Rs is due to arrive later this year.

If the Navy was this concerned about US political considerations, they would not do the above. And neither would the GOI sanction the funds. No point in shiny new naval combat fighters, if the rest of your CBG has gaping holes (i.e. no ASW helicopter).

Separate the wheat (GOTUS) from the chaff (defence & geopolitical analysts in the US and India). The latter makes a lot of noise, but ultimately GOTUS and the American MIC have the final say. The latter spun a fabulous narrative that an American fighter was going to seal a formal military alliance between the US and India. A number on BRF got caught up in that narrative and then spun even more fantabulous theories of their own i.e. 200 F-16s and 100 F-18s for the IAF + a separate order of F-18s for the Navy. If the F-18 loses the contest, it will still be business as usual between GOTUS and the GOI. Both governments are mature enough to realize that the relationship has far more intrinsic worth than 26 naval fighters or 114 air force fighters.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ManuJ »

Rakesh wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Rakesh, the government of India signs the cheque. The decision to go ahead with the procurement or not always belongs with the government.
Pratyush, the govt indeed signs the cheque...but the service chooses the platform. If Rafale is what the Indian Navy wants...then Rafale is what the Indian Navy will get. But the same is equally true for the F-18 as well.
The services don't choose the platform, they provide a comprehensive report with the results of the evaluation trials. This report is exhaustive and objective and it brings out the pros and cons of each platform. The report may disqualify some contestants based on technical or other criteria. Any platform not disqualified is a potential candidate for purchase, though there will always be a platform that would come out on top. However, it is important to note that the government is not bound to select the top-most platform.

For example, if in IN trials F/A-18 scores over the Rafale, the government may still decide to with the Rafale based on geopolitical reasons.

The happy path is where the service top recommendation is also the government's strategic choice.

There have been many instances in the past where the government of the day has gone against the service recommendations and procured non-optimal platforms.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ManuJ wrote:The services don't choose the platform, they provide a comprehensive report with the results of the evaluation trials. This report is exhaustive and objective and it brings out the pros and cons of each platform. The report may disqualify some contestants based on technical or other criteria. Any platform not disqualified is a potential candidate for purchase, though there will always be a platform that would come out on top. However, it is important to note that the government is not bound to select the top-most platform.
In MMRCA 1.0, it was the IAF that chose the Rafale and the Eurofighter as the two aircraft that cleared the minimum requirements. None of the others - F-16IN, MiG-35, Gripen NG and F-18E/F - made the cut. Not my words, but from a senior IAF officer who was involved in the selection process. Please see below. It clearly shows the technical downselect was done by the IAF and the Govt followed that dictum. The Govt really had no other choice, because air combat is not their domain. It is not like the Govt can go back to the IAF and have a technical discussion on why the rejected aircraft should be re-entered into the competition. That is not a discussion in which the Govt is going to prevail.

No Govt can circumvent that process because 1) they do not have the requisite technical knowledge and 2) it will reek of corruption. The services choose the platform from a variety of competitors/contestants and the Govt then gets involved in the overall cost of the deal plus any strategic benefits (factory, JV, ToT, etc) with the OEM chosen by the service. The procurement system is designed in this manner. The red text highlighted below is the technical downselect of MMRCA 1.0 and the blue text is where the then UPA Govt got involved.

India’s $20B Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) Contract
https://eurasiantimes.com/indias-20b-mu ... -fighters/
07 Feb 2022
Air Marshal Pranab Kumar Barbora (Retd), who was serving as the Vice Chief of Air Staff during the time of evaluation of the fighter jets for the MMRCA tender, offers some insight into the testing process.

“The IAF had done extensive testing — testing of the highest caliber — because we had to evaluate six fighters. We were quite rigorous in this assessment. Since we came to the conclusion that the Eurofighter and the Rafale cleared the minimum requirements, we put up the case to the government, stating that these are the two aircraft that will be suitable.

Thereafter, it became a financial bid. What the contractors looked like, how much they would cost us, etc. was evaluated by the government. And that was the time when Rafale was chosen for the 126 aircraft,” he said.
The report is exhaustive and it does bring out the pros and cons of each platform, as you stated above. But the platforms are also graded/scored. The highest scoring platform (or the top two, if there is a large pool) then moves on to the next stage --> cost negotiation. It is only at this stage when the Govt gets involved. Because the Govt is signing on the dotted line. If there are two contestants - as in the case of MMRCA 1.0 - then the Govt does a cost analysis (L1) to determine, which of the two is cheaper. Once L1 is announced, the Govt cannot jump back to L2 either.

Just imagine if the then GOI turned around and told the IAF, that they are rejecting the Rafale and Typhoon in favour of the F-16IN or MiG-35 or F-18E/F or Gripen E...it would have raised a political windstorm. The Government would have to explain why. The two OEMs - Dassault and the Euro Consortium - would have added their own fuel to that fire. The explanation of strategic partnership will not fly - not with the opposition, the media or even the citizenry. Everything in foreign defence deals is about the best platform at the cheapest cost.

Every mega defence deal in India is viewed with great suspicion, because of the penchant of underhand dealings. Therefore every mega defence deal is audited by the CAG to ensure that everything was followed to the letter in the procurement process. Any deviations are highlighted and corrective action taken. These deviations are also taken up by the opposition and are argued at great length in parliament. The opposition will also hold press conferences, conduct morchas, attend political rallies and do everything else under the sun to show that the government is corrupt. In Parliament the opposition will echo the standard line - this Govt must resign.

To avoid this un-necessary tamasha, the Govt negotiates with the OEM (based on the service's choice), but in where the Govt finalizes the cost and any strategic benefits that come with this mega deal. Tomorrow if anything goes drastically wrong (technically) with the platform, the Govt can readily argue in Parliament, "We did not choose the platform, the service did." They will dump that right on the service's head. The Vikramaditya acquisition is a good example. Which politician or MoD Babu has faced even an iota of scrutiny over the dismal technical performance of the Vikramaditya? Ownership of that white elephant solely sits with the Indian Navy and she sails out once (or twice) a year for yoga day.
ManuJ wrote:For example, if in IN trials F/A-18 scores over the Rafale, the government may still decide to with the Rafale based on geopolitical reasons. The happy path is where the service top recommendation is also the government's strategic choice.
If the Rafale scores lower vis-à-vis the F-18, I sincerely hope the Government does not give the excuse of geopolitical/strategic partnership with France as the reason to still go in for the Rafale. Especially with the stain of the first Rafale deal, that is the last excuse to give. The opposition and the media in India will have a field day with it.

The average citizen in India does not give two hoots about a 110kN turbofan for AMCA, that France is more geopolitically reliable than the US or whatever else. They are primarily concerned about the Government being financially honest with taxpayers' money and the Govt not helping their supposed cronies (i.e. Anil Ambani) get lucrative & underhand defence deals with their money and while these same taxpayers are struggling to make ends meet. The rest (i.e. strategic partnership) is fairy dust to them.
ManuJ wrote:There have been many instances in the past where the government of the day has gone against the service recommendations and procured non-optimal platforms.
I believe I have a fairly good idea of the examples you may have, but I don't want to jump the gun. So please advise which platforms.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... zBH2X3L-mw ---> First batch of Indian Navy’s pilots & sensor operators graduated from @USNavy Helicopter Maritime Strike Squadron 41, #SanDiego after qualifying on the MH-60R helicopter. The crew underwent 10 months of intensive trg incl day & night deck landing qualifications.

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... zBH2X3L-mw ---> They would be responsible for inducting the versatile ‘Romeo’ into the Indian Navy - arrival in India commencing mid-2022. Induction of this advanced all-weather maritime multi-mission helicopter would provide a fillip to the Indian Navy's operations in the IOR.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/151 ... zBH2X3L-mw ---> The Indian Navy's first batch of MH-60 Romeo aircrew successfully complete training at Naval Air Station, North Island, San Diego. Will be responsible for induction.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/151 ... zBH2X3L-mw ---> First batch of four MH-60R Romeo helicopters for the Indian Navy, set to arrive in India in June. Remaining 20 to be delivered in batches thereafter.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

https://twitter.com/thingsnavy/status/1 ... QpF_di89_Q

111 for a foreign OEM becomes 60 for HAL but even still this will be amazing news if it happens
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by titash »

KSingh wrote:https://twitter.com/thingsnavy/status/1 ... QpF_di89_Q

111 for a foreign OEM becomes 60 for HAL but even still this will be amazing news if it happens
Amazing if true. These 60 are only the first tranche.

The IN's Chetaks are still flying since the INS Nilgiri was first commissioned in 1972. That's 50 years ago.

Over the next 50 years, expect to see 200+ of these utility copters in service with the IN for attrition replacements, fleet recapitalization, etc. They can always order more at cost price. The benefits of twin engines + local production & MRO will speak for themselves
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

titash wrote:
KSingh wrote:https://twitter.com/thingsnavy/status/1 ... QpF_di89_Q

111 for a foreign OEM becomes 60 for HAL but even still this will be amazing news if it happens
Amazing if true. These 60 are only the first tranche.

The IN's Chetaks are still flying since the INS Nilgiri was first commissioned in 1972. That's 50 years ago.

Over the next 50 years, expect to see 200+ of these utility copters in service with the IN for attrition replacements, fleet recapitalization, etc. They can always order more at cost price. The benefits of twin engines + local production & MRO will speak for themselves
It’s depressing how long these things take, the navy first started work to get a new NUH about 15 years ago, can’t see this 60 ALH deal being signed for 3-4 years so an entire generation will have come and gone without progress.

Chetak flying today is an embarrassment but they’d rather shift papers than work on this issue
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:If Navy says that both Rafale and F18 are technically acceptable, then it will be interesting...
Both are already technically acceptable. Even the lift issue has been resolved. No point in Rafale going through the trials, if she could not fit in the lifts. But there is something like a point system that the services use to determine which closely meets the requirements. Whoever wins that contest (gets the highest points), will be given the red rose.
at those stratospheric levels, antennae are finely tuned to the prevailing winds

governors and lt. governors appointments are at stake, as are citizenships, green cards and cushy jobs and many a full ride ivy league I-20s

the babooze of all hues and persuasions can sense the slightest shift in the breeze

the decision matrix is complex, dynamic and has multiple attributes

the sukhoi deal was pushed, at the very last minute, by a dhoti clad u p politico who waltzed away with a largish fortune
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by basant »

Sukhoi's was one of the best deals ever made and important decisions were taken towards the end of tenures of PV's and Deve Gowda's (short-lived) governments (DM: Mulayam). One of the contributing factors for such a favorable deal was the internal situation in Russia after the collapse of USSR that India quickly utilized.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

60 ALH NUH can be supplied in 2.5 years @24/ year. It was inevitable common sense but took too long.
How many will be ASW version to add to 6 nos of present 24 ALH fleet is to be seen to complement MH60R.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

Rakesh wrote:.....
If this was true the KA226 would never deal would never have come about. In every iteration of RSH competition the FENNEC beat the KA226 but it was the KA226 that the Modi government pursued after 2015.

IN will make sure F18 and Rafale meet their needs but the GoI will make the determination in this case, most sense would be to go for a GTG deal with France for Rafales for both IAF and IN.

That said I’m fully expecting this to be another drawn out speculative event with no final decision ever made. They have a 2-3 year window in which making the decision is needed to justify imports otherwise TEDBF becomes the obvious choice. No chance this makes any headway in 2-3 years.

Also little chance that india chooses now to deepen defence ties with the US, most efforts in recent weeks have been to go to indigenous sources.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by titash »

sankum wrote:60 ALH NUH can be supplied in 2.5 years @24/ year. It was inevitable common sense but took too long.
How many will be ASW version to add to 6 nos of present 24 ALH fleet is to be seen to complement MH60R.
sankum-ji,

Any idea on why only 6/16 for ASW? The ASW config details/graphics were never published IMHO. Are these the v1.0 for a new ASW suite incl. LFDS, ALWT, etc.?

Outstanding issues for ASW Ops I recall were 1) vibration issues, 2) insufficient full power @ hover for dipping the sonar, 3) insufficient range. I wonder how the Westland Lynx derivatives which are similarly sized fulfill the ASW role

I recall old pics from 15 years ago showing the capability to carry 2 torpedoes, a maritime patrol radar, and full flotation gear
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

titash wrote:
sankum wrote:60 ALH NUH can be supplied in 2.5 years @24/ year. It was inevitable common sense but took too long.
How many will be ASW version to add to 6 nos of present 24 ALH fleet is to be seen to complement MH60R.
sankum-ji,

Any idea on why only 6/16 for ASW? The ASW config details/graphics were never published IMHO. Are these the v1.0 for a new ASW suite incl. LFDS, ALWT, etc.?

Outstanding issues for ASW Ops I recall were 1) vibration issues, 2) insufficient full power @ hover for dipping the sonar, 3) insufficient range. I wonder how the Westland Lynx derivatives which are similarly sized fulfill the ASW role

I recall old pics from 15 years ago showing the capability to carry 2 torpedoes, a maritime patrol radar, and full flotation gear
ALH is in the 5-6ton class, it’s ASW capabilities will always be constrained besides since the early 2000s the IN has dropped the idea of using the ALH for ASW

ALH is most useful in the NUH role, ASW is a NMRH mission
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

sankum wrote:60 ALH NUH can be supplied in 2.5 years @24/ year. It was inevitable common sense but took too long.
How many will be ASW version to add to 6 nos of present 24 ALH fleet is to be seen to complement MH60R.
Contract in 2025, deliveries completed early 2030s seems most likely

Chetak serving until their 7th decade almost a certainty too
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

KSingh wrote:
titash wrote:
sankum-ji,

Any idea on why only 6/16 for ASW? The ASW config details/graphics were never published IMHO. Are these the v1.0 for a new ASW suite incl. LFDS, ALWT, etc.?

Outstanding issues for ASW Ops I recall were 1) vibration issues, 2) insufficient full power @ hover for dipping the sonar, 3) insufficient range. I wonder how the Westland Lynx derivatives which are similarly sized fulfill the ASW role

I recall old pics from 15 years ago showing the capability to carry 2 torpedoes, a maritime patrol radar, and full flotation gear
ALH is in the 5-6ton class, it’s ASW capabilities will always be constrained besides since the early 2000s the IN has dropped the idea of using the ALH for ASW

ALH is most useful in the NUH role, ASW is a NMRH mission
As a stopgap till IMRH ASW is reality.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by VinodTK »

KSingh wrote:https://twitter.com/thingsnavy/status/1 ... QpF_di89_Q

111 for a foreign OEM becomes 60 for HAL but even still this will be amazing news if it happens
From: The Hindu

Navy to get variants of indigenous helicopters
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The tender for 111 NUH was earlier being processed through the Strategic Partnership (SP) route of the procedure which last week was included by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in the third positive indigenisation list.

Based on the suggestions of a joint study with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) last October, the Navy has issued its broad requirements to HAL in January for acquisition of 60 utility helicopters based on the ALH for maritime operations, defence sources said.

“The detailed project report covering the helicopter configuration and the overall cost including performance based logistics is under preparation by HAL, which will be submitted to Service Headquarters and MoD shortly,” two defence sources confirmed.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

VinodTK wrote:
KSingh wrote:https://twitter.com/thingsnavy/status/1 ... QpF_di89_Q

111 for a foreign OEM becomes 60 for HAL but even still this will be amazing news if it happens
From: The Hindu

Navy to get variants of indigenous helicopters
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:
:
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The tender for 111 NUH was earlier being processed through the Strategic Partnership (SP) route of the procedure which last week was included by the Ministry of Defence (MoD) in the third positive indigenisation list.

Based on the suggestions of a joint study with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) last October, the Navy has issued its broad requirements to HAL in January for acquisition of 60 utility helicopters based on the ALH for maritime operations, defence sources said.

“The detailed project report covering the helicopter configuration and the overall cost including performance based logistics is under preparation by HAL, which will be submitted to Service Headquarters and MoD shortly,” two defence sources confirmed.
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It’s a confused article with no specifics. Basically nothing has changed

When they actually sign a contract I’ll be interested, we know how elusive those things are for HAL
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

sankum wrote:
KSingh wrote: ALH is in the 5-6ton class, it’s ASW capabilities will always be constrained besides since the early 2000s the IN has dropped the idea of using the ALH for ASW

ALH is most useful in the NUH role, ASW is a NMRH mission
As a stopgap till IMRH ASW is reality.
MH-60R+ upgraded Sea King are the stop gap until IMRH is ready (seems about 10-12 years away)
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ernest »

Does anyone know about the number of Dhruvs produced by HAL so far?

Wiki links to this article giving a number of ~330
https://www.businessworld.in/article/HA ... 22-418261/

I am not sure if it includes the number of Rudra, or is that separate? If Rudra numbers are additional on top of this, then Dhruv production might touch 500 nos in a couple of years
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Anujan »

December last year, HAL chairman said they have delivered 320 Dhruv

I think this also includes Rudra, HAL refers to Rudra as Dhruv-WSI (weapons systems integrated) in most of their interviews and press releases.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by bala »

Has the Indian Coast Guard acquisition of HAL Helos forced Indian Navy to reconsider HAL Helos.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

ernest wrote:Does anyone know about the number of Dhruvs produced by HAL so far?

Wiki links to this article giving a number of ~330
https://www.businessworld.in/article/HA ... 22-418261/

I am not sure if it includes the number of Rudra, or is that separate? If Rudra numbers are additional on top of this, then Dhruv production might touch 500 nos in a couple of years
Around 330 is right for Rudra and all ALH variants. I think they have at most another 30 units outstanding to be delivered. Without new orders they’ll be out of production just under the 400 unit mark come 2025
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ernest »

Thank you gents for confirming the numbers. I was hoping for the higher count to be true. Given our huge mountainous borders, we can certainly use more of Dhruv class helis.

That is already OT. So, will stop my daydreams here
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