Indian Naval Aviation

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RCase
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by RCase »

Rakesh wrote: Sirjee, you are asking about the mysteries of life :lol: This is going to be a long reply, so please bear with me.

A number of players (Indian Navy, politicians, bureaucrats) need to be held accountable for this mess, but not a single one will. Who is going to bell the cat? Always remember that Satan never casts out Satan.
Sirji - Thanks for the detailed reply.
As the Yanks would say... "This is a cluster f**k".
Curious if US and China are also bogged down with such muddled weapons systems planning roadmaps. I believe in the US, Pentagon does the planning and not the individual services. Not that everything is hunky dory, but you don't have situations where a carrier is looking for aircraft!

Would it be prudent to have a defense roadmap think tank under civilian leadership (similar to TRAI for telecom) that takes inputs from the armed forces, but lays out the integrated equipment needs for the next 25 - 50 years or so for all services? The CDS can focus on implementing the plan and putting his foot down on goalpost shifting.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

RCase - first get a CDS...
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

RCase wrote:As the Yanks would say... "This is a cluster f**k".
Curious if US and China are also bogged down with such muddled weapons systems planning roadmaps. I believe in the US, Pentagon does the planning and not the individual services. Not that everything is hunky dory, but you don't have situations where a carrier is looking for aircraft!

Would it be prudent to have a defense roadmap think tank under civilian leadership (similar to TRAI for telecom) that takes inputs from the armed forces, but lays out the integrated equipment needs for the next 25 - 50 years or so for all services? The CDS can focus on implementing the plan and putting his foot down on goalpost shifting.
It is indeed messed up.

The US - being a democracy - does have squabbles and budgetary arguments, but not dysfunction at this level. What we have in India is 100% dysfunction and a visceral apathy towards national security. The Babu Raj (I call it Gunda Raj) calls the shots in India. Nothing will move without the Babu giving the nod. Prime Minister Narendra Modi famously remarked (post the 2019 General Elections), "I will not let the bureaucracy waste the next five years, as they did in my first five years."

One Service Chief was bluntly told to his face (by a Senior Babu) of his place in the hierarchy. Being a Service Chief, he had to swallow his ego and pride and take it on the chin. And Service Chiefs have spent four decades of their working life in the military. They get a level of respect (salute, being called Sir, etc) that is not reproduced in civilian life. They come with a huge baggage of ego and pride.

Just in case, you are unaware of the hierarchy, I reproduce it below;

1) Indian Administrative Service
2) The Almighty Himself
3) The Rest of Us

There was a well known story of a Minister who went to see General Sam Manekshaw in his office in New Delhi. When the Minister went there, he told one of the General's Staff Officers (a Colonel or perhaps it was Major) - in a very condescending tone - to do some task. General Manekshaw immediately told the Minister to NEVER speak to his staff officers in that manner. The Minister was taken aback. Which Service Chief in India has the gumption to do this today? Sam was a unique cookie. We have not had another Sam and that is sad.

China is a different ballgame altogether. When it comes to National Security, they have a beautiful system in place. It is called Communism. You want to bulldoze hundreds of villagers to create a testing range? Sure, why not. Who cares if those villagers are displaced or are homeless. You cannot do this in India. Just not possible. Not that I am advocating for that, but the system is different. Until Xi the Permanent Emperor came onto the scene, no matter who the President of China was...it did not stop their advancement in military programs. Every President of China has worked towards that goal. Like a missile heading towards it target, it diverted from its path when challenges arose, but it has a laser vision focus on its target i.e. making China a superpower.

In India, the Govt will institute a military program. The opposition will oppose it, just because they are in the opposition. They don't have an iota of a clue what they are even opposing, but they will oppose it. When the opposition is not effective, then yell corruption. Then institute a JPC (Joint Political Committee) to investigate the allegation of corruption. The committee will meet weekly to discuss the updates. But no discussion can occur without an order of masala chai and piping hot samosas or bondas. Discuss to kingdom come (in India that is measured in decades, not even years) without any resolution. Heaven forbid, if these allegations end up in the legal system of the country. So now waste another couple of decades. Who suffers as a result of this malaise? YOs and NCOs. If they die, oh well. Maha Vir Chakra diya usko! Aur Kya Chaiye?

Kudos to the Prime Minister for actually pushing through the office of CDS (20 years after the Kargil Committee recommended it!!!). It was tragic that he died in the manner he did last December. The next CDS should first work towards some fundamental tasks, soon as he takes over;

1) Staff College should train and educate middle rank officers - who are being groomed to command/flag rank - to think beyond their own service and look at the larger picture. Stop thinking tactically (this is my service and so this is my job) and think strategically. If you are expected to be a Flag Officer, then you must be able to think of your sister services and what is best for national security. Right now, every service chief believes only his requirement (114 MRFA, 65K aircraft carrier or next generation main battle tank) will save the country from disaster.

2) Staff College should drill Atmanirbhar Bharat into middle rank officers who are being groomed to command/flag rank. Every decision they take as future Flag officers should have that goal in mind. That self reliance checks off every economic box, it makes the services stronger, it reduces wait times to get the product, that serviceability is quicker, spares are cheaper...I can go on. Right now the system is we-don't-have-this-capability-so-let's-write-an-RFI-for-a-global-contest. We all know how that works out.

3) Equally important is the CDS' immediate subordinate (the VCDS) should be ready to take over, if something ever happens to him. Succession Planning is Rule 101 in effective organizations. No one person is bigger than the institution or the office. This is not hero-giri or hero worship. National Security is a serious issue.

I hope the Govt finishes the bifurcation of the CDS and Secretary DMA as quickly as possible. We need these appointments like yesterday.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Admiral
So first Arty has to understand infantry has to understand armour has to understand Engineers etc before understanding IAF.
The fighter pilot thinks he is the bee's knees and that engineers and missle men are children of a lesser god.
The degree of parochialism within the three services itself is to be seen to be believed.
We can do this Sir. Nothing is insurmountable. This is possible with the new CDS. That change has to come from him.

DSSC Wellington needs a serious overhaul of its curriculum.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... TkYP0rHV0w ---> An American OEM has offered an extend range "JDAM" to Indian Navy for P-8I. Formal presentation will be made in first week of next month.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Chinmay »

AFAIK, JDAMs arent qualified on the P-8 yet. There were/are plans to do so, but hasn't happened. In case Unkil is planning to take care of the weapons qualifying cost, this would be a good weapon to have, especially the new Quicksink mod
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... TkYP0rHV0w ---> An American OEM has offered an extend range "JDAM" to Indian Navy for P-8I. Formal presentation will be made in first week of next month.
If JDAM can be qualified for P8. Why not the Indian glide bombs?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Expect to see more pictures like this over the next 10 days. Mirroring the Rafale trails. That is a clean, no weapons take off. Only a pair of drop tanks. Next set of trials will see weapons i.e. AMRAAM, Harpoon, etc. This is where the Rhino will outshine the Rafale.

https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... HM8MOiwhXg ---> F/A-18 Super Hornet in Goa.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Chinmay wrote:AFAIK, JDAMs aren't qualified on the P-8 yet. There were/are plans to do so, but hasn't happened. In case Unkil is planning to take care of the weapons qualifying cost, this would be a good weapon to have, especially the new Quicksink mod
Along with the P-8Is that came, a sizeable quantity of Mk8X bombs were likely acquired. Perhaps the OEM in question sees an opportunity to convert these using JDAM kits.

https://twitter.com/defencealerts/statu ... lMe9FmUGTQ --->
Indian Navy's P-8I dropping MK-82 bomb (unguided, low-drag general-purpose bomb).

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Cyrano
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cyrano »

Wonderful invention for humanity, for eternity!
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Chinmay »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... lMe9FmUGTQ ---> Indian Navy's P8I armed with?

https://twitter.com/DFI_Sancho/status/1 ... lMe9FmUGTQ ---> Quickstrike mines.
Oh Fantastic! If the Quickstrike has been integrated then JDAMs or Quicksinks should be done as well. Thanks Admiral!
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Chinmay wrote:Oh Fantastic! If the Quickstrike has been integrated then JDAMs or Quicksinks should be done as well. Thanks Admiral!
You are welcome Sirjee. Even I was surprised. Just a humble request to please not re-quote images when replying.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Waiting for a photo of a full weapons load out (multiple Harpoon AShMs + AMRAAMS + drop tanks). That will be a cool photo!

Remember, the Rafale M only carries a single Exocet AShM with Mica AAMs. That is the standard loadout for the Rafale M from the French Navy's Charles de Gaulle. The Exocet also has a significantly shorter range compared to the Harpoon AShM. A longer range AShM keeps the platform further out of the SAM umbrella of a naval vessel or a carrier battle group.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/153 ... 744SLBfIiA ---> Timed rather nicely with the Top Gun Maverick release, the first proper photos of a F/A-18 Super Hornet over Goa just dropped.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/153 ... 744SLBfIiA ---> First spotting of the Indian Navy's two General Atomics MQ-9B SkyGuardian drones at Arakkonam, Tamil Nadu.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Vayutuvan »

@Rakesh-ji,

Deigo Garcia seems to be just a tad out of the 1200 NM range. Diego Garcia is ~1300 nautical miles from Arakkonam as per my visual estimate on google maps.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ashishvikas »

India to buy 26 fighters for INS Vikrant on G-2-G basis
With the indigenous twin-engine deck-based fighter a decade away, the Narendra Modi government will be buying 26 carrier-based fighters for soon to be commissioned INS Vikrant on a government-to-government basis on the recommendation of the Indian Navy.
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 68920.html
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Aditya_V »

Tough decision- Rafale-M , will have commonality with IAF Rafale's ease of maintenance and common ordinance and Meteor Missiles

F-18 will use Ge 414 Engine which should most probably equip the future TEDBF of the IN, Tejas MK2, ORCA , first batch of AMCA etc. Apart from Amraams (surely we can never get the AIM 260 in near future) some of weapons could be common with P-8I or even the MH 60 fleet.

I suppose we must try to get some screqwdrivergiri, critical parts storage and overhaul of F404 and F414 engines from GE to make them sanction proof once they are imported in India aspar tof this deal.

But good thing is navy order is down from 57 to 26- Leaving room for quicker TEDBF and atleast some LCA Navy inductions( for carrier training and shore based aircraft for the Indian Navy).
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

The end goal is always 57 aircraft. It is budgetary shortfalls that have temporarily reduced that to 26.

Induct either bird - Rafale M or F-18SH - and TEDBF will be done. The unit cost of just 31 TEDBFs will be high and not worth it. Also the production rate will be slow, as 31 is just not a viable number to ramp up production. We are repeating the same mistake yet again, just as we did with the Tejas Mk1. We don't seem to (or want to) learn our lesson.

With the Rafale M, at least these birds can be transferred to the IAF once TEDBF comes on board. But Rafale M is unlikely to win.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by basant »

TEDBF will spawn ORCA/TEDBF's AF variant. I believe it would be possible to have dual use TEDBFs that can potential work for the Air Force too. If some sense prevails, this might help with numbers. I hope that the next CDS will push for such a capability. Remember that during the Chinese standoff both Mig 29Ks and P-8Is were deployed.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/153 ... FojeVmjfuw ---> Indigenous solution is the best if it comes on perfect time. Unfortunately, we have to wait a considerable time for the TEDBF. Just imagine, if TEDBF and an air force version (ORCA) could be readied by 2022-24! But as this not going to happen, we must move on for alternative.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Admiral
So first Arty has to understand infantry has to understand armour has to understand Engineers etc before understanding IAF.
The fighter pilot thinks he is the bee's knees and that engineers and missle men are children of a lesser god.
The degree of parochialism within the three services itself is to be seen to be believed.
We can do this Sir. Nothing is insurmountable. This is possible with the new CDS. That change has to come from him.

DSSC Wellington needs a serious overhaul of its curriculum.
this is the caste system that you are talking about

literally, it pervades, springs from, and also mirrors the uniformed society and change is almost next to impossible. Some of the colonial influences are still ruling the roost.

now and then, a new gung ho broom may make an enthusiastic entry, and a few sweeps later, be locked up in the cupboard again.

only a non controversial conformist will get help and guidance in his tapsya as he makes his way up the slippery pyramid and dues have to be paid

and don't miss the part about being "a very strong personality", conformists rarely have "a very strong personality" Bend rather than break is their driving moto, rather like taxi drivers rather than formula one drivers.

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edited to add image
Last edited by chetak on 31 May 2022 01:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by basant »

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/153 ... FojeVmjfuw ---> Indigenous solution is the best if it comes on perfect time. Unfortunately, we have to wait a considerable time for the TEDBF. Just imagine, if TEDBF and an air force version (ORCA) could be readied by 2022-24! But as this not going to happen, we must move on for alternative.
Alternative is required as development of TEDBF will take at least 12-15 years to reach production. I was talking about cutting down requirement from 57 to 26 of the requirement, leaving scope for TEDBF at a later date. Mig-29Ks should be replaced sooner than later anyway.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Basant-ji, you can take a naval fighter and adapt it to air force use. F-18 is a good example. Not ideal in terms in maneuverability, but entirely doable. The reverse is usually not true (MiG-29 and N-LCA).

The only exception (that i can think of right now) is the Rafale. She was designed from the ground up to be an effective multi-role fighter for the air force and the navy. But even the Rafale M is heavier than her air force counterpart. How much that translates into loss of maneuverability and other factors, I don't know.

But the alternative you are referring to (unless I misunderstood your post) will require ORCA development. AFAIK, there is nothing on that front. Just to get this current Air Chief to mention Tejas Mk2 is excruciating painful. His only aim is 114 (now 57) MRFA.

The only silver lining that I can see from the 57 to 26 reduction is the third aircraft carrier is at least two decades away, based on the navy's insistence that she be a super carrier with a catapult launch system. Thus India will have only one aircraft carrier (Vikrant) for the forseeable future. If they build a follow on Vikrant Class, then yes it makes sense to go in for additional aircraft. But to increase that number beyond 26 and not have those airframes available for any other aircraft carrier is pointless. How viable the Vikramaditya will be in the years ahead remains to be seen. She just came out of a refit I believe.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/InsightGL/status/15 ... FYbl9Bg2xw ---> Competition is intensifying and Boeing is leaving no stone unturned to woo India;

- Boeing says F/A-18 Super Hornet Block III is our next-generation warfighter, compatible with current Indian naval carriers.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by nachiket »

I hope someone in parliament questions the DM as to why the IN refuses to buy more Mig-29K's which obviously have no concerns about operability on our carriers and is going after far more expensive jets for which neither of our carriers were designed for. There needs to be some sunlight on the status of the Mig-29K. The Indian taxpayer funded billions for their acquisition. They deserve to know the reality.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ldev »

nachiket wrote:I hope someone in parliament questions the DM as to why the IN refuses to buy more Mig-29K's which obviously have no concerns about operability on our carriers and is going after far more expensive jets for which neither of our carriers were designed for. There needs to be some sunlight on the status of the Mig-29K. The Indian taxpayer funded billions for their acquisition. They deserve to know the reality.
Here an F/A-18 is dropped from 20 feet as part of a test to ensure that everything aboard the aircraft functions after such a drop. It's velocity is 36 feet per second at the moment of impact simulating a particularly nasty landing on a carrier. Was this kind of severe testing done when the Mig-29s were modified I wonder.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

If someone has access, can they please post a summary?

https://twitter.com/nlosls/status/15342 ... SmyJQjQF8Q ---> Our new and improved Boeing F/A-18 profile is now live on AWIN! For those with access you can find it here: https://aviationweek.com/node/531 #AvGeek #F18 Highlights to follow. (1/6)

https://twitter.com/nlosls/status/15342 ... SmyJQjQF8Q ---> Key highlights: The Navy has not requested any new-build F/A-18E/F in the PB23 request. Accounting for the 12 added by Congress in FY22, the last aircraft will deliver in 3QFY25. The clearest way for Boeing to extend production would be to win India's naval fighter tender. (2/6)

https://twitter.com/nlosls/status/15342 ... SmyJQjQF8Q ---> India is looking for 26 carrier-borne fighters, down from the initial RFI for 57. 8 of these need to be dual-seaters. Boeing's only competitor, the Rafale, does not have a navalized two-seater. Developing one would be extremely cost prohibitive. (3/6)
[Dassault will not invest and India will not pay for development for a tiny 8 airframes of a twin seater Rafale M]

https://twitter.com/nlosls/status/15342 ... SmyJQjQF8Q ---> Unfortunately for Boeing, the truncated requirement does not inspire confidence. Nor does the recent history of Indian fighter procurement. Other opportunities exist, but the F/A-18 is ill placed to compete with the F-16 Block 70 at the low end and F-35A at the high end. (4/6)
[brar_w's assessment of Boeing's chances were prescient]

https://twitter.com/nlosls/status/15342 ... SmyJQjQF8Q ---> We've seen this repeatedly as various operators have gone for the comparable cost single-engine F-16 Block 70 or the much more expensive (but more capable) F-35A over the F/A-18 or the Gripen. (5/6)
[Not applicable to the Indian scenario, as F-16 is not carrier compatible and F-35 is not coming]

https://twitter.com/nlosls/status/15342 ... SmyJQjQF8Q ---> Meanwhile, the U.S. continues its service life modification plan to bring much of the Super Hornet fleet to 10,000 hr fatigue life and Block III avionics. Altogether, the Navy expects to spend $9.4 billion on Super Hornet modernization and sustainment from FY21 through FY27. (6/6)
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

India ties carrier-based fighter purchase to deal on major tech transfers
http://www.opex360.com/2022/06/03/linde ... hnologies/
03 June 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Kersi D »

Now that the F 18 / Rafale competition is hotting up, expect a torrent of articles on the virtues of F 18 E/F/G/..X/Y.

I would say that F 18 is an excellent shipboard aircraft. But after reading the articles we should ask "then why is USN going for F 35".
If it is as great as the write-ups, USN should continue with F 18 series
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ldev »

Kersi D wrote: But after reading the articles we should ask "then why is USN going for F 35".
If it is as great as the write-ups, USN should continue with F 18 series
Stealth and unmatched sensor fusion.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Kersi D wrote:Now that the F 18 / Rafale competition is hotting up, expect a torrent of articles on the virtues of F 18 E/F/G/..X/Y.

I would say that F 18 is an excellent shipboard aircraft. But after reading the articles we should ask "then why is USN going for F 35".
If it is as great as the write-ups, USN should continue with F 18 series
The USN is not continuing with production of the F-18SH. In fact, there are no more orders for the F-18SH for the USN. See the tweets above.

The F-18SH was inducted into the USN in 1999. At that time, the F-35C was not ready. Going forward, it will be the F-35C all the way for the USN.

The next goal is to improve the service life of the F-18SH in the USN fleet and upgrade her for the length of her service life. The Growler variant is also undergoing a significant upgrade with the NGJ (Next Generation Jammer). And the F-18SH is very capable. Whatever you have read in whichever write ups to date is true. The Block III Rhino will complement the F-35C in the US Navy.

But the F-18SH line will shut down fairly soon, whether it wins the Indian Navy competition or not.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by bala »

Rakesh wrote: But the F-18SH line will shut down fairly soon, whether it wins the Indian Navy competition or not.
Currently there is no other Navy except the US operating the Shornets, so it begs the question why Indian Navy is considering Shornets when the US is shutting things down (I am fully aware that Shornets are still excellent birds for Navy).
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by JTull »

F/A-18 has zero chance in current political climate. Modi is not going to reward US after their recent actions.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy deal ‘top priority’, F/A-18 Super Hornets ‘clear pick for ops anywhere’, says Boeing
https://theprint.in/defence/indian-navy ... ng/990296/
10 June 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ashishvikas »

The multi-role frontline naval fighter F/A-18 #SuperHornet is fully compatible with @indiannavy carriers. It will act as a force multiplier, deliver superior economics with low acquisition and lifecycle costs.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Boeing_In/st ... n1GKQ&s=19

https://www.boeing.co.in/products-and-s ... fa-18.page
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by yensoy »

JTull wrote:F/A-18 has zero chance in current political climate. Modi is not going to reward US after their recent actions.
What US actions? Sorry I don't understand.
Deals are not made as a reward as an after fact, they are made to influence the future. And of course the merits of the product being offered and the price.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by konaseema »

Was there ever any news / thought process to procure Tejas Mk1 by the Indian Navy for the defense of the naval bases (not operated on the aircraft carriers) ?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

konaseema which Naval bases and what kind of kind of threat would they face that the LCA would help tackle?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

konaseema wrote:Was there ever any news / thought process to procure Tejas Mk1 by the Indian Navy for the defense of the naval bases (not operated on the aircraft carriers) ?
No.

The NLCA was never considered for the role. If the objective is to protect naval assets using a naval aircraft. NLCA could be used.

But the question to ask is, why do you want to spend budget on building a single purpose aircraft that lacked the ability to be deployed from the aircraft carriers. Doing a job the the IAF is already doing.

Something, that the existing Mig29 K can easily accomplish for the Navy. While also being "safely", deployable from the carrier. Money has already been spent on it.
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