Indian Naval Aviation

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Feb 2017 21:48

Advocated a Do amphib a few years ago.There was a foreign concept ,pic in an old VAYU issue.Dornier I think had a 328 amphib design.We should've picked up the company when we were the only manufacturers of its aircraft.RUAG did instead.
One of the best decisions

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Feb 2017 16:27

Why not manufacture new jaguars in CATOBAR spec?

JTull wrote:Guys, just a thought. How difficult will it be to mount a pair of Honeywell F125IN (56KN) engines on N-LCA Mk2? These are the same ones chosen for Jaguar re-engining. It will definitely solve many of the problems. And, since this is a Tech Demo anyway, why not make this leap?

F125 family
F125IN
F414

Rishi Verma · Post by **Rishi Verma** » 25 Feb 2017 18:24

Navy should use about 25 NLCA for land based operations. There are sufficient shore based land masses from which a NLCA can be launched with full payload of bombs (get refueled mid-air if needed) and upon return the jets (if needed) land on carrier for air defense sorties (which does not require bomb load during takeoff)

Air strips at Kutch, Andaman Nicobar, etc can be used.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 26 Feb 2017 01:26

sohamn wrote:HAL is planning a Do-228 amphibian and it almost managed to keep it a secret.

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2017/02/ ... faces.html

Mahindra Airvan 8:

Same in seaplane guise:

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Feb 2017 02:46

Aditya G wrote:Why not manufacture new jaguars in CATOBAR spec?

JTull wrote:Guys, just a thought. How difficult will it be to mount a pair of Honeywell F125IN (56KN) engines on N-LCA Mk2? These are the same ones chosen for Jaguar re-engining. It will definitely solve many of the problems. And, since this is a Tech Demo anyway, why not make this leap?

F125 family
F125IN
F414

That is what the IN signed up for, in 2008, with the naval AMCA.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 26 Feb 2017 05:52

My question is if NLCA has no operational role then why not plan for a twin engined derivative (without the 5th Gen overhang of AMCA). F125IN has already been studied in depth for Jaguar integration and has the right thrust.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Feb 2017 06:02

JTull wrote:My question is if NLCA has no operational role then why not plan for a twin engined derivative (without the 5th Gen overhang of AMCA). F125IN has already been studied in depth for Jaguar integration and has the right thrust.

That would be the 50 odd the IN is fishing for right now.

I think there is a lot more to this story of IN not wanting the NLCA MK2. The short of it: hit your dates. My take.

KBDagha · Post by **KBDagha** » 28 Feb 2017 19:18

Source: @Manu Pubby‏

Details still coming in but this seems to be a case of deft flying by the Navy. Hydraulic loss emergency landing can be tricky.

Emergency landing by MIG 29 K fighter at Mangalore airfield following a hydraulic failure. Tyre burst on landing. Pilot safe.

A second MIG 29K had escorted the aircraft. Recovery team rectifying the aircraft on site to clear the runway.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 28 Feb 2017 19:39

^^ I was visiting Naval Aviation Museum in Goa today Afternoon. I saw one MiG 29K TO from the Naval base. Some time later other followed. Could those be the same jets involved in this reported incidence..?

ranjan.rao · Post by **ranjan.rao** » 28 Feb 2017 19:53

Rishi Verma wrote:Navy should use about 25 NLCA for land based operations. There are sufficient shore based land masses from which a NLCA can be launched with full payload of bombs (get refueled mid-air if needed) and upon return the jets (if needed) land on carrier for air defense sorties (which does not require bomb load during takeoff)

Air strips at Kutch, Andaman Nicobar, etc can be used.

Your idea is innovative I am quite sure, such things will be tried out once they have a base around which they can experiment. Right now it is get more planes to meet the emerging threat from China.
As far as shore based is concerned, with refeulling, the IAF version should be better, because it will come without the landing gear etc. Or even better the beautiful beast Rambha. This is where a theater level command will truly leverage synergies between our forces, if it is not already taken, and help wrinkle out the unnecessary duplication.

DrRatnadip · Post by **DrRatnadip** » 28 Feb 2017 20:07

ranjan.rao wrote:
Rishi Verma wrote:Navy should use about 25 NLCA for land based operations. There are sufficient shore based land masses from which a NLCA can be launched with full payload of bombs (get refueled mid-air if needed) and upon return the jets (if needed) land on carrier for air defense sorties (which does not require bomb load during takeoff)

Air strips at Kutch, Andaman Nicobar, etc can be used.
Your idea is innovative I am quite sure, such things will be tried out once they have a base around which they can experiment. Right now it is get more planes to meet the emerging threat from China.
As far as shore based is concerned, with refeulling, the IAF version should be better, because it will come without the landing gear etc. Or even better the beautiful beast Rambha. This is where a theater level command will truly leverage synergies between our forces, if it is not already taken, and help wrinkle out the unnecessary duplication.

Sir I think IAF version will have more corrosion due to enviornmental factors. How much it will affect operational availability or life of aircraft i dont know. But one would assume that aircraft designed for marine enviornment like NLCA will be better as shore based aircraft. Se*y looks of NLCA is another plus point

. Just my humble 2 paisa.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Mar 2017 00:32

Indian Navy’s MiG-29K fighter jet makes emergency landing at Mangaluru
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/h4uwxh ... ng-at.html

Navy MiG-29 fighter makes emergency landing in Mangaluru after technical glitch
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... O6y3H.html

Navy MiG-29K makes emergency landing at Mangaluru airport
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 396206.cms

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Mar 2017 00:34

MiG-29K repair facility at INS Hansa
https://www.nyoooz.com/news/goa/744804/ ... -ins-hansa

A squadron of MiG-29K aircraft, White Tigers, is also based at INS Hansa.

No 300 White Tigers was a SHAR squadron which is now number plated, as the SHAR is now retired. The only active fighter squadron in the Indian Navy, is of MiG-29K aircraft, which come from No 303 Black Panthers. The above is a DDM error.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Mar 2017 01:04

Rakesh wrote:MiG-29K repair facility at INS Hansa
https://www.nyoooz.com/news/goa/744804/ ... -ins-hansa

A squadron of MiG-29K aircraft, White Tigers, is also based at INS Hansa.
No 300 White Tigers was a SHAR squadron which is now number plated, as the SHAR is now retired. The only active fighter squadron in the Indian Navy, is of MiG-29K aircraft, which come from No 303 Black Panthers. The above is a DDM error.

Dear Admiral
were they not ressurected as a Mig-29K squadron at the same ceremony.
i.e i thought it was more of a Squadron changing its steed ceremony.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease. ... lid=145203

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Mar 2017 01:54

Oh Damn! I totally missed that one. This is what happens when you focus all your energies arguing in the Single Engine Thread.

I am wrong. I stand corrected.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Mar 2017 06:29

Rakesh wrote:Indian Navy’s MiG-29K fighter jet makes emergency landing at Mangaluru
http://www.livemint.com/Politics/h4uwxh ... ng-at.html

Navy MiG-29 fighter makes emergency landing in Mangaluru after technical glitch
http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-new ... O6y3H.html

Navy MiG-29K makes emergency landing at Mangaluru airport
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 396206.cms

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Mar 2017 07:09

^^^It's what MiG 29Ks do

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 01 Mar 2017 08:24

Err can you clarify your post? What do 29ks do? Crash land? The skill of the pilot must be lauded for saving a national resource and himself!

srai · Post by **srai** » 01 Mar 2017 08:39

Khalsa wrote:...

Looking at the plaque, it seems the admiral's name is larger and shinier than everything else written on it

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 01 Mar 2017 14:02

Rakesh wrote:Oh Damn! I totally missed that one. This is what happens when you focus all your energies arguing in the Single Engine Thread.
I am wrong. I stand corrected.

lol Admiral you are good
Again that zor ke jhatka ... dheere se.
You know I look at that Single Engine bloody thing thread and curse myself for starting it ....

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 01 Mar 2017 23:01

Khalsa wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Oh Damn! I totally missed that one. This is what happens when you focus all your energies arguing in the Single Engine Thread.
I am wrong. I stand corrected.
lol Admiral you are good
Again that zor ke jhatka ... dheere se.
You know I look at that Single Engine bloody thing thread and curse myself for starting it ....

Saar, I honestly did not mean that in a sarcastic sense. Discussing with them is draining my energy. And I am glad you started that thread. It shows where people stand on that issue. I am truly embarrassed as to how I missed that about the White Tigers.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 02 Mar 2017 00:54

Indeed sir the single engined fighter has been a good place for many to express their views.
Shall we carry on sir
(Offers a Crisp Salute to the Admiral)

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Mar 2017 02:31

It's a simplistic opinion that most of us take to surmise the reasons for Mig-29Ks serviceability. It is not so. The engines on the Mig-29K are not that bad! The upgraded IAF Mig-29s enjoy good uptimes too. It would not be possible with unreliable engines.

<POOF>

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Mar 2017 02:36

All the more reason to get those 57 Naval fighters expeditiously.

Once they arrive, station the MiG-29Ks at Jamnagar and Goa. Keep them shore based onlee.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Mar 2017 11:36

I wonder how the 29Ks meant for the RuN are going to fare,if there is a serious landing shock problem affecting the airframe. Russia has been operating SU-33s for a long time now,the PLAN using their clones for their new carriers.Surely they have the req. tech know-how for the same. But then the SU is from the Sulkhoi bureau,which matters little now after all RU design bureaus are now under one roof.

Indra,the Jag idea is a good one in the apparent failure of the NLCA,but the concept of a maritime Jag is decades old and the naval Rafale,obscenely priced would be far better. When we purchased the Jags in the '80s,we should've had an option for the maritime version too. Can't remember how many prototypes were built by the UK/Fr. However,it has one clear virtue over the NLCA,two engines.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 03 Mar 2017 12:01

RuN is having plenty of problems with the Su-33. We don't know how the Chinese are doing. I don't think they are doing too well unless they have found ways to bend the laws of physics.

As of now, Jags don't have enough TWR to get off STOBAR carriers. With the Honeywell engines, they do have an outside chance. But who will modify the plane and certify them. It is not just a matter of the engines. The more I read and learn about the naval fighters, the more I love them. I just learnt about an IN pilot landing a Mig-29k on vikramaditya under conditions which I couldn't believe were possible. He must have some solid steel between his ears and thighs. But, even the Mig-29s aerodynamics. I bow to it. It is so unfortunate that the airframe is not holding up to the stress of day in and day out carrier operations. The F-18s do better, but not by a whole lot. I have heard stories which are equally hair raising. I don't know enough French to know the fate of Rafales. I hope it is better given their price, but don't believe all their sweet marketing talk.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 03 Mar 2017 17:36

Indranil wrote:I just learnt about an IN pilot landing a Mig-29k on vikramaditya under conditions which I couldn't believe were possible. He must have some solid steel between his ears and thighs.

If it can be shared publicly, pls to do so saar - only thing one hears about the K of late is rona-dhona.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Mar 2017 18:35

My understanding is the MiG-29Ks have structural issues, hydraulics issues, radar problems and engine problems. IAF upgrade, we will know in some time.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 03 Mar 2017 18:36

Unless its already known that they are doing ok, the IAF birds that is.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 03 Mar 2017 19:02

Indranil, do you have any info if the MiG team of designers have visited IN facilities and are actively participating in resolving the deficiencies? Or are they blaming the IN for incorrect usage or abuse? Because if IN is thinking about bringing in NLCA team from ADA, it is quite possible that MiG is in denial.

If its a design issue, I would expect the designers to mount gauges on various parts of airframes where additional shock is being imparted. A quick fix or rubber band fix could be to beef up the airframe locally so that it can take up additional forces due to shock. Of course the long terms fix is to redesign the landing gear along with shock absorbing mechanism.

I am surprised that MiG team got it wrong wrt estimating shock intensities from landing unless the data collected from Su-33 experience is proprietary and MiG team had to start from the scratch like our NLCA team.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 03 Mar 2017 20:13

Now the IN's RFP for 56 aircraft has started making sense. Perhaps they don't have enough operational airframes at one time to even equip IAC-1.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Mar 2017 20:27

Indranil wrote:The more I read and learn about the naval fighters, the more I love them. I just learnt about an IN pilot landing a Mig-29k on vikramaditya under conditions which I couldn't believe were possible. He must have some solid steel between his ears and thighs. But, even the Mig-29s aerodynamics. I bow to it. It is so unfortunate that the airframe is not holding up to the stress of day in and day out carrier operations. The F-18s do better, but not by a whole lot. I have heard stories which are equally hair raising.

Saw one video on youtube about F/A18 trying to land on a really rough sea in the night when the AC deck was swaying like 15-20deg up and down. A bunch of F/A-18s and the buddy refulers who flew to refuel them were all lined up and were failing one by one to catch the arrester wire. It was rather tense on the AC. Finally when the first guy managed to land, they showed him on the video. The poor guy was literally shivering. If something can unnerve a navy pilot then we can imagine how difficult the situation must be.

Also remember Cmd Mao making a remark in AI-11 seminar that NLCA would take perhaps 15-20 yrs to get it tested/certified for operations in Roaring Forties. He said, I won't be around when it will happen, someone from next gen will do the testing.

Its far far more challenging to operate on the AC when it gets really rough. Thats why its utmost important to operationalise NLCA MK2 in whatever form it comes in, even if it means a small number. Both the IN and DRDO will learn a lot through it.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 03 Mar 2017 20:43

@JayS, hence the move to Magic Carpet something spun out of the F-35 program and incorporated into the Hornet family. With the X-47B having proven autonomous take off and landings it wouldnt be long before this transitions to autonomous landings even on manned aircrfat once the MQ-25 is operational and technology, software and techniques further refined.

https://news.usni.org/2016/06/30/navys- ... lding-fall

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Mar 2017 20:58

Karan M wrote:My understanding is the MiG-29Ks have structural issues, hydraulics issues, radar problems and engine problems. IAF upgrade, we will know in some time.

Good god, is there anything on that thing that is not an issue?

The Russian Navy pretty much showed us what they think of the thing when they embarked only four (count them, 4) on their most publicized deployment in decades.

The Russians sold us a lemon and the IN knows it, thus the call out for the 57 new fighters when the 29Ks are all but brand new.

chola · Post by **chola** » 03 Mar 2017 21:07

To honest with ourselves, with the Vik-A and the Vikrant as STOBAR the F-35 is really the only reasonable possibility. F-18 and Rafale-M are CATOBAR verified and Gripen-N is a paper offering that can't be gotten any quicker than the NLCA. In the end, there really isn't any choice here.

srin · Post by **srin** » 03 Mar 2017 21:30

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote:The more I read and learn about the naval fighters, the more I love them. I just learnt about an IN pilot landing a Mig-29k on vikramaditya under conditions which I couldn't believe were possible. He must have some solid steel between his ears and thighs. But, even the Mig-29s aerodynamics. I bow to it. It is so unfortunate that the airframe is not holding up to the stress of day in and day out carrier operations. The F-18s do better, but not by a whole lot. I have heard stories which are equally hair raising.
Saw one video on youtube about F/A18 trying to land on a really rough sea in the night when the AC deck was swaying like 15-20deg up and down. A bunch of F/A-18s and the buddy refulers who flew to refuel them were all lined up and were failing one by one to catch the arrester wire. It was rather tense on the AC. Finally when the first guy managed to land, they showed him on the video. The poor guy was literally shivering. If something can unnerve a navy pilot then we can imagine how difficult the situation must be.

You mean this ? Watch from around 35 mins till end (especially near the end).

The naval planes are subjected to an entirely new level of torture.
Whether we operationalize NLCA or not, this is what we need to learn to build. And good that we're doing it.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Mar 2017 22:48

srin wrote:
JayS wrote:
Saw one video on youtube about F/A18 trying to land on a really rough sea in the night when the AC deck was swaying like 15-20deg up and down. A bunch of F/A-18s and the buddy refulers who flew to refuel them were all lined up and were failing one by one to catch the arrester wire. It was rather tense on the AC. Finally when the first guy managed to land, they showed him on the video. The poor guy was literally shivering. If something can unnerve a navy pilot then we can imagine how difficult the situation must be.
You mean this ? Watch from around 35 mins till end (especially near the end).

The naval planes are subjected to an entirely new level of torture.
Whether we operationalize NLCA or not, this is what we need to learn to build. And good that we're doing it.

Bingo. Thanks a lot for providing the link.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 03 Mar 2017 23:23

Brar_w, thanks for that video. Really interesting. Here is a part prior to that on where the speaker describes extremes of Arrested recovery and a new recovery and launch system which is far more aggressive than the existing steam/hydraulic system. Interesting video.

This is what NLCA right now has for TO and landing (poster from AI-2017). I guess they will also move to something like Magic Carpet in future.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9ijXl ... sp=sharing

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Mar 2017 23:50

JTull wrote:Now the IN's RFP for 56 aircraft has started making sense. Perhaps they don't have enough operational airframes at one time to even equip IAC-1.

I said this right when the Admiral's statements about the "failure" of the NLCA came out. That this had more to do with the "failure" of the Mig-29Ks than any issues with the NLCA MkI which the Navy was never planning on acquiring in the first place. This urgency of a new RFP for 57(!) aircraft did not make sense when they had 45 carrier capable fighters and only one carrier that couldn't even carry half of them aboard.

But it is much easier to blame the local product so that questions will not be raised about the Mig-29 acquisition.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 04 Mar 2017 01:58

+1

Nachiket, Thanks for calling it out earlier. I wonder how long before the journos connect the dots?

Chola, If you think f35B is the only option for Navy, what makes some of us on the forum think that IAF will want Gripen/F16/F18 etc? It will want shiny new 100 F35As too!