Indian Naval Aviation

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Jul 2020 22:00

Twitter link

Three Aircrafts, Three Carriers and Six Decades of Air Supremacy.

The Roar Grows 60.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Jul 2020 22:04

More..

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 15 Jul 2020 22:06

And some more amazing pics

viveks · Post by **viveks** » 16 Jul 2020 01:35

India should have bought more harriers. With better engines they were stretched to touching sound speeds. It would have been good to have a small unit just based only out of destroyers.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Jul 2020 06:51

Rakesh wrote:
Cain Marko wrote: Hmm...m not getting this. Isn't the tedbf supposed to be available by 2030s? Where does the shornet fit in? Totally confused wonlee
The 57 carrier borne contest was started prior to TEDBF...

This is seriously beyond aggravating. Effing brick wall - and yes, I blame the services (partly at least) for this as well. I still find it hard to believe that the planners in the Navy couldn't push for a TEDBF in 2008 when they found out that the LCA was low on thrust and still pushed for a single engine. It couldn't have been done better if they deliberately wanted to reject the product.

To think - what a golden opportunity this double-crisis offers! A chance to turn the tables on a dramatic scale both timewise and in term of economic and security ambitions.

* An appropriate loosening of the purse strings at the highest level for domestic MIC

* An appropriate tightening (and checking) of the bureaucracy

* An appropriate (and large scale) order(s) at the level of the services

In one stroke, India can come out of an economic and security boondoggle.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 16 Jul 2020 15:28

How The Indian Navy Mounts The Harpoon On It's Neptune, Shows This Naval Calendar
https://www.spansen.com/2020/07/indian- ... ptune.html

Almost did a double take on seeing the photograph above. Took a little while to realise that it shows an AGM-84L Harpoon Anti-Ship Missile [AshM]. Personnel are mounting it on the SUU-92/A Underwing Pylon of the Indian Navy's Boeing P-8I 'Neptune' Maritime Surveillance Aircraft.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 24 Jul 2020 18:23

https://zeenews.india.com/india/indian- ... 97406.html

Indian Navy MiG-29K planned to be deployed in Ladakh in addition to P-8I deployed in surveillance missions.

In 1962 Indian Navy Seahawk fighters had deployed for combat duties at AFS Gorakhpur

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Jul 2020 20:22

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12864 ... 41792?s=20 ---> Air Headquarters of Naval Aviators.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2020 15:01

V.good news about the extra 6 P-8 Is,to add to the 8+4 already in service and in the pipeline. That will amount to 18 plus the 5 IL-38s,also v.useful which will soldier on to 2030.Our Do-228s too have good surveillence potential . This will hugely beef up ASW capability in the IOR plus assist the IA in the mountains as is being done now.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 25 Jul 2020 15:37

Philip wrote:V.good news about the extra 6 P-8 Is,to.

I honestly don't see what's news here.The 6 were approved by the DAC in Nov 2019 and the 4 were approved in 2010 and ordered in 2016 for delivery starting 2020

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2020 16:16

"Approved" in the MOD could mean years before actual delivery! Also "approved" long before the P-8s are 200+ KA-226 LUHs,Lakhs of Kalashnikovs, and ither diverse systems,yet to be sealed. The earlier plan was for buying 22SGs,reduced to just 12.

Things are being fast tracked now,plus the no. was in recent pre- Galwan events cut down like the nos. of KA-31s. A query on the SG UCAVs,are these coming from existing SG nos. in service or new? One option is for the IN to acquire at much cheaper cost 24 RQ-4 Global Hawks,which have better range,capability, etc.,which the USAF want to discard. A Biz.Std. Nov.2019 report . I would plump for the 24 Global Hawks ,primarily because of their longer range,which would help fill the LR surveillance gap after our TU-142 ,Bears were retd. Range,a phenomenal 22,000km and endurance of 32 hours.The range of the SG is only 2000km and endurance just 14 hrs. No comparison really. The unit cost may be more,new almost double,but just look at the massive disparity in performance.Just 2 to 3 GHs could do the biz. of a 12 SGs,plus used ex- USAF GHs would probably come in cheaper too. Given the options,I wouldn't hesitate and buy the GHs .

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 25 Jul 2020 17:55

Philip wrote:"Approved" in the MOD could mean years before actual delivery! .

Exactly. Thus unless there is something concrete like CCS clearance now, or an order, where's the news ?

Do you have any concrete reports on SG, or P8i acquisition ?
Because if there were, I missed them

John · Post by **John** » 25 Jul 2020 20:42

Discussions for next 6 with Boeing will not start till late 2021.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Jul 2020 20:46

The US Navy is coming to the close of its P-8 procurement program. With most of the larger international customers having already placed, or getting ready to place orders, it wouldn't be surprising to see the production rate decrease over the next couple of years which would impact the cost. So the MOD/IN are probably interested in getting the order in while the rates are still at their high mark to avoid buying it at the tail end of its production.

Raman · Post by **Raman** » 25 Jul 2020 21:42

Rest assured that we will wait until the production rates decrease to a trickle before placing an emergency order - maximizing acquisition costs with minimal future planning is the Indian way.

kit · Post by **kit** » 25 Jul 2020 22:18

brar_w wrote:The US Navy is coming to the close of its P-8 procurement program. With most of the larger international customers having already placed, or getting ready to place orders, it wouldn't be surprising to see the production rate decrease over the next couple of years which would impact the cost. So the MOD/IN are probably interested in getting the order in while the rates are still at their high mark to avoid buying it at the tail end of its production.

Someone asked this question and i think you are the best person to answer

What makes the P8I so effective as an AEW aircraft in the Himalayas, won't a purely "land" AEW system that can be an AEW & C be a better buy

I fully expect IDRW to come up with an article following this but anyway !!

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 25 Jul 2020 22:26

Sure you could build a more land focused ELINT/SIGINT platform for cheaper than a P-8 because the P-8 will always carry the cost of the ASW and ASuW mission which may not be relevant from that mission standpoint. But the P-8 can flex into that role if needed. It even had a large high frequency GMTI like payload that can transform it into a JSTARS like role. So when you need capability it is good to know that with slight incremental cost you can move a platform predominantly used over water or the littoral to perform missions if they are required outside of those areas. Likewise additional ASW and ASuW capability is probably also an attractive proposition. The next crisis may not be over land.

chola · Post by **chola** » 25 Jul 2020 23:25

brar_w wrote:The US Navy is coming to the close of its P-8 procurement program. With most of the larger international customers having already placed, or getting ready to place orders, it wouldn't be surprising to see the production rate decrease over the next couple of years which would impact the cost. So the MOD/IN are probably interested in getting the order in while the rates are still at their high mark to avoid buying it at the tail end of its production.

Great point, Brar ji. This is situation is similar to our C-17 saga where we were late on the bidding for the final batch and ended up getting just one out of the three we wanted. I hope our procurement of the P-8 is done in a more rational manner.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 26 Jul 2020 03:51

https://twitter.com/AtuL1617_/status/12 ... 90720?s=20 ---> It will be interesting to see if the US allow Indian P-8Is to equip with the latest and powerful AN/APS-154 Advanced Airborne Sensors that would provide Indian Poseidon's with exceptional unmatched ISR capabilities to watch deep inside adversary's land and ocean territories.

https://twitter.com/AtuL1617_/status/12 ... 00992?s=20 ---> Earlier, APS-154 was a critical asset to spy on PLAN's secret Naval facilities including Yulin nuclear submarine facility. I hope, the new 6 P-8Is will come with this powerful sensor tech. While older ones cud get it later. A robust Recce pod is also there on P-8As.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 26 Jul 2020 04:22

The AAS (which is pretty classified and not cleared for sale) export will be tricky. We will see how the UK goes about it since they are interested in that capability as well. Raytheon can easily modify the sensor that it developed for the UK Sentinel and meet those needs though Littoral specific capability of the AAS may be lacking (and perhaps the more adv DMTI capability as well) which it could also offer to other P-8 users.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jul 2020 04:30

Manish_Sharma wrote:https://twitter.com/AtuL1617_/status/12 ... 90720?s=20 ---> It will be interesting to see if the US allow Indian P-8Is to equip with the latest and powerful AN/APS-154 Advanced Airborne Sensors that would provide Indian Poseidon's with exceptional unmatched ISR capabilities to watch deep inside adversary's land and ocean territories.

https://twitter.com/AtuL1617_/status/12 ... 00992?s=20 ---> Earlier, APS-154 was a critical asset to spy on PLAN's secret Naval facilities including Yulin nuclear submarine facility. I hope, the new 6 P-8Is will come with this powerful sensor tech. While older ones cud get it later. A robust Recce pod is also there on P-8As.

If it does come with the AN/APS-154 suite, then the whole fleet should get the upgrade so that logistics, servicing and lab facilities can be standardized and simplified.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 26 Jul 2020 04:35

brar_w wrote:Sure you could build a more land focused ELINT/SIGINT platform for cheaper than a P-8 because the P-8 will always carry the cost of the ASW and ASuW mission which may not be relevant from that mission standpoint. But the P-8 can flex into that role if needed. It even had a large high frequency GMTI like payload that can transform it into a JSTARS like role. So when you need capability it is good to know that with slight incremental cost you can move a platform predominantly used over water or the littoral to perform missions if they are required outside of those areas. Likewise additional ASW and ASuW capability is probably also an attractive proposition. The next crisis may not be over land.

I wonder how many know that even in the earlier days, the Alizes from the INAS 310 were used in a similar role just like the IN Dorniers were used during the kargil operations.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 26 Jul 2020 04:44

chetak wrote:If it does come with the AN/APS-154 suite, then the whole fleet should get the upgrade so that logistics, servicing and lab facilities can be standardized and simplified.

Not even the whole USN fleet has it. It is a removable payload and specifically for littoral and land based sensing and targeting. You don't want to be lugging it around for long patrols when sub hunting for example.

For reference, the APS-154 is the "son of the LSRS" which came to light during the Iraq war in the 2000s. Te LSRS was widely considered superior to the JSTARS in many respects relevant to the particular mission set.

In January 2009 more details became available, thanks to an article about the MMA on the navlog.org website:
”A US Navy radar developed in secrecy for tracking targets at sea, has been playing an important role on land because of its ability to
track objects smaller than trucks or cars. One knowledgeable official says the radar is one of the “groundbreaking” insurgent-hunting
technologies referred to, though not by name, in Bob Woodward’s latest book, “The War Within”. Since the publication in August 2007,
the official designation of the Littoral Surveillance Radar System (LSRS) pod has become known as AN/APS-149.

The LSRS, was “born black” and was developed as a “deeply, deeply classified system”, according to a knowledgeable official who was
not authorized to speak for the program. LSRS operates from P-3C Orions and can be used to track targets on land or sea and to provide
images of those targets to intelligence analysts and commanders.

The core secret of LSRS is its fidelity. Other airborne radars, including the Army-Air Force Joint Surveillance and Target Attack Radar
System (E-8 J-STARS) aircraft, can track cars and trucks through clouds and at night. Because of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the
Pentagon pushed the US defence industry to develop radars capable of detecting and tracking people.

LSRS is conceptually similar to J-STARS. It is a wide-aperture active electronically-scanned array (AESA) surveillance radar. AESA
radars are solid-state, without moving parts, and include thousands of transmitter/receivers that track a high number of targets at one time.
It is the kind of radar that can track and target land and maritime targets, both stationary and moving. Besides the AESA radar, LSRS
also includes data storage, display, and control hardware. The system has been used in demonstrations to cue a Boeing AGM-84K
SLAM-ER to strike a simulated launcher for an Iranian Shahab-3 ballistic missile on June 1st, 2006. On September 13th, 2006 Boeing’s
SLAM-ER weapon system scored a direct hit against a moving, remotely-controlled land target during a recent flight test at the Naval
Air Warfare Center, China Lake, Ca. For this test, a Littoral Surveillance Radar System-equipped aircraft (probably an Orion) sent
real-time targeting data to an F/A-18 Hornet, which relayed the data to the SLAM-ER after the weapon’s launch. The SLAM-ER acquired
and impacted a simulated SA-10 missile launcher in a desert environment.

Officially the US Navy began funding work on LSRS in the mid-1990s, inspired by the success of the J-STARS aircraft in the 1991
Persian Gulf War. Mind you, Orions with similar pods were already seen in 1978! As its name implies, LSRS was originally designed
for monitoring vessels on near-shore littoral waters, but the military pressed it into service in Iraq in 2005. The Navy did not start flying
LSRS radars over the water until 2007. Before the Navy started publicly acknowledging details of LSRS, the LSRS “Advanced Sensor
Technology Team” won a Department of Defence award for “innovative acquisition management techniques.” on October 4, 2006.
To operate the LSRS system the P-3C BMUP version of the Orion was selected. Twenty-five US Navy Orions have been modified to
BMUP standard, but only 16 P-3C BMUP’s can operate the LSRS. Altogether, these sixteen Orions had accumulated more than 2800
hours in flight as of February 2007, according to a released government document...

LINK

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jul 2020 21:28

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/12 ... 40994?s=20 ---> India formally kicks off acquisition process for 6 more Poseidon-8I aircraft from US, while a plan is also underway for fast-track procurement of six Predator-B armed drones amidst the military confrontation with China.

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/12 ... 80544?s=20 ---> India is extensively using the naval P-8I patrol planes, which are packed with radars and electro-optic sensors as well as armed with Harpoon Block-II missiles and MK-54 lightweight torpedoes, for surveillance missions over the Indian Ocean as well as eastern Ladakh.

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/12 ... 36418?s=20 ---> Interestingly, India now also examining “an emergency procurement” of six Predator-B or weaponized Sea Guardian drones as part of the original plan to acquire 30 such drones, 10 each for Army, Navy & IAF, with different payloads to hunt and destroy targets over land and sea.

https://twitter.com/rajatpTOI/status/12 ... 57600?s=20 ---> The 6 new P-8I aircraft will have COMCASA-protected equipment, which are much more advanced & secure than the commercially available ones. The Sea Guardians also have such equipment like advanced GPS, IFF receiver & VHF system, which are immune to jamming & spoofing from enemies.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 27 Jul 2020 21:30

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 10208?s=20 ---> A 'Letter of Request’ for six more P-8Is for around $1.8 billion has been issued to US for government-to-government deal under Pentagon's FMS. The US will soon send the ‘letter of acceptance’ after congressional approval. The contract is to be signed early next year.

wig · Post by **wig** » 28 Jul 2020 10:39

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... ear-118768
US to deliver sub-hunting helicopters early next year
extracts

The delivery of US-made submarine hunting helicopter, MH 60-R, will commence early next year. The deal for 24 copters was announced in February. These will form the front-end of tracking the growing presence of Chinese submarines in the Indian Ocean.

and

Militarily, an anti-submarine warfare-capable helicopter like MH 60-R, with its sea-dunking sonars, is a preferred platform for detecting a submarine. The Indian requirements comprise spare engines, specific missiles and Mk-54 torpedoes among others.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 29 Jul 2020 17:49

Navy has cut down its requirement of 57 multi-role fighters capable of operating from carriers to about 36 (two squadrons).

kit · Post by **kit** » 29 Jul 2020 18:05

brar_w wrote:Sure you could build a more land focused ELINT/SIGINT platform for cheaper than a P-8 because the P-8 will always carry the cost of the ASW and ASuW mission which may not be relevant from that mission standpoint. But the P-8 can flex into that role if needed. It even had a large high frequency GMTI like payload that can transform it into a JSTARS like role. So when you need capability it is good to know that with slight incremental cost you can move a platform predominantly used over water or the littoral to perform missions if they are required outside of those areas. Likewise additional ASW and ASuW capability is probably also an attractive proposition. The next crisis may not be over land.

Thank you !.. Does the Neptunes carry GMTI sensors ?

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 29 Jul 2020 18:09

Not as such. The USN Poseidons can with the AN/APS-154 (below) with GMTI and DMTI. I'm curious to see Raytheon offer a similar sensor for the P-8 users. Maybe not hte APS-154, but something derived from the UK's Sentinel because the UK has looked at the P-8 replacing that type in the past.

There is a fair bit of residual ELINT capability built into the P-8 suite which I assume is what is turning out to be extremely useful here. You can build up a good picture on enemy movement and activity that way. Especially with a platform that can loiter for quite a while and has enough crew to go through the taskings.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 29 Jul 2020 20:55

Vips wrote:Navy has cut down its requirement of 57 multi-role fighters capable of operating from carriers to about 36 (two squadrons).

By the time they conclude this contract, TEDBF will be ready.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 29 Jul 2020 22:38

^^^
What's the point of cutting down the numbers, it will still cost a bomb. It was the navy's decision to junk the LCA Mk2 for TEDBF causing delays of at least ~4years, obviously it will have consequences.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 01 Aug 2020 19:13

Navy not keen on HAL for choppers, wants private sector to build alternate capability.

The navy is not in favour of an offer by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) for an upcoming Rs 21,000 crore Make in India contract as its chopper does not meet requirements and there is a dire need to establish alternative capability in the private sector to manufacture modern aircraft.

Sources said that the naval version of the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) that is being offered does not meet basic qualitative requirements and is unsuitable for the role required, including urgent Search and Rescue (SAR) missions at sea. As reported by ET, the naval utility helicopter (NUH) plan - originally planned for the private sector under the strategic partnership model - is going through a tussle after HAL entered the fray and has requested the government to be included.

"The ALH has a rigid rotor head and has been designed for high altitude operations, where it is very good at. The problem is that the design limits it in terms of the blade folding capability. In missions such as SAR, every minute is precious and the ALH just takes too much time to be deployed," a source said. While the navy is already operating the ALH in a utility role, it requires 111 helicopters for deployment onboard ships to carry out multiple roles, including surveillance and ferrying supplies. The requirement is urgent and a specialised chopper is needed that can be quickly deployed and retrieved and can be stored in the space constrained hangar onboard all vessels.

The process to acquire the choppers is already in advanced stages with four Indian companies shortlisted who can partner with a foreign technology provider to make the helicopters domestically. However, the nal selection is stuck after HAL put in a representation. In the original tender document, it was specified that only private sector companies are eligible to take part in the contest.

Sources said that there is a need to have capacity in the private sector too for manufacturing modern aircraft and the NUH programme will enable the identified winner to procure technology and skills. Besides the navy requirement, the winning company will have a large domestic civilian market to tap, besides a robust export potential.

chola · Post by **chola** » 01 Aug 2020 19:40

^^^ The silverlining here is a push that might get us private sector capacity.

But as the rotors division of HAL is its most sccessful, losing the NUH contest and its big contract for 111 copters to yet more phoreners even in partnership feels very bad.

I do trust the Navy though. They have never been a spendthrift service and never been one to shy away from Indian products. I am torn about the whole thing. If we must go screwdrivergiri again then let be with the private sector.

basant · Post by **basant** » 01 Aug 2020 19:42

^^^
If true, I am very *impressed* with Navy's zeal for creating "alternative capability in the private sector to manufacture modern aircraft". IN should stick specs and quality instead of getting into the domain of GoI policies.

basant · Post by **basant** » 01 Aug 2020 19:46

chola wrote:^^^ The silverlining here is a push that might get us private sector capacity.

But as the rotors division of HAL is its most sccessful, losing the NUH contest and its big contract for 111 copters to yet more phoreners even in partnership feels very bad.

I do trust the Navy though. They have never been a spendthrift service and never been one to shy away from Indian products. I am torn about the whole thing. If we must go screwdrivergiri again then let be with the private sector.

IN has no business with establishing a private sector. If we encourage such interference (only if true), next we know, we will have original Kalvari match sticks and Delhi Class cornflakes by 'Indian Fauji Foundation'. Let's hope and pray that it is a fake article.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 01 Aug 2020 20:44

^^^^ Utter shame that we are not giving new improved ALH a chance to evaluate, if the argument is private player then if tomorrow HAL floats a private company or gives indian company to manufacture Naval ALH that should also be fine. The key is forces don't want indian chopper period, whether the design has improved or not all they want is foreign maal and mullah.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 01 Aug 2020 21:01

It's just mind boggling that year after year Indian military can't figure out how to use something that's already in hands and built. What's built can be utilized somewhere someplace from training to exercise.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 01 Aug 2020 21:08

ALH is designed for high altitude operations.

Navy needs helicopters for 0 sea level. Not that HAL cannot do it, but HAL does not have a suitable copter as of now.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 01 Aug 2020 21:38

Be careful about Economic times. They usually publish pro China articles and give space for the Chinese govt to write articles.

Vidur · Post by **Vidur** » 01 Aug 2020 21:43

basant wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ The silverlining here is a push that might get us private sector capacity.

But as the rotors division of HAL is its most sccessful, losing the NUH contest and its big contract for 111 copters to yet more phoreners even in partnership feels very bad.

I do trust the Navy though. They have never been a spendthrift service and never been one to shy away from Indian products. I am torn about the whole thing. If we must go screwdrivergiri again then let be with the private sector.
IN has no business with establishing a private sector. If we encourage such interference (only if true), next we know, we will have original Kalvari match sticks and Delhi Class cornflakes by 'Indian Fauji Foundation'. Let's hope and pray that it is a fake article.

Is there no minimum knowledge standard on this forum ? SPP is meant for private sector only. That's its raison de etre. What is the use of commenting if even basic research is not done. I have explained processes and policies on numerous occasions. Especially SPP and its rationale. It's been a waste of time.