Indian Naval Aviation

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sudeepj
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sudeepj »

After Kargil, the def budget saw a 40% increase. Is Galwan similar to Kargil in the effect it will have on our budgets? It also depends on the stomach in Washington to take on China. Uncertain times.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Please ignore the title, just quoting the most relevant part.

With MiG-29s falling apart, its time to pitch in the Rafale-M for the Indian Navy
https://www.defenceaviationpost.com/202 ... dian-navy/
France, since 2018 has been pitching the Rafale-M variant fighter jet as a contender for the Indian Navy’s requirement of carrier-borne combat aircraft, with a top officer saying that it’s battle proven.

Pointing to operations against ISIS using the Rafale, the French Navy feels it will be suitable for India and can be easily integrated on-board the aircraft carrier under construction at Cochin Shipyard which is likely to be commissioned by next year end or early 2022. “We have used the aircraft carrier in the fight against ISIS and have used sophisticated armaments from the Rafale that demonstrates that it works very well,” Rear Admiral Gilles Boidevezi, in charge of foreign relations for the French Navy remarked in an interview with ET.

The Rafale can be integrated with non-French carriers.” Industry sources said several rounds of talks had taken place with Indian Navy regarding the Rafale offer for a requirement of 57 jets and that it hadn’t been impacted by the political controversy over the earlier deal for 36 planes. In fact, defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman is expected to be in Paris from October 11 for a bilateral meeting, during which she is expected to be briefed on all ongoing projects, including Scorpene submarines and progress on Rafale production.

The tenders for the contract are expected to be issued shortly but it is likely to be a straight contest between the Boeing-made F/A 18 Super Hornet and the Rafale Marine. The French navy believes that it has demonstrated its ability to operate from foreign carriers. “The Rafale went to the US and was deployed on American aircraft carriers,” said Boidevezi. “The Rafale was perfectly integrated with the US carriers and has shown its capability to work with non-French platforms.”

Both the F/A 18 and Rafale Marine fighter jets have been operating from aircraft carriers but are rigged for catapult launches. This may pose problems for India as the navy uses the ski-jump system, which involves a runway that curves upward. Sources said that extensive tests and software analysis have been conducted by the French side on the Rafale to show that it can operate with a meaningful load from ski-jump carriers. This data has also been shared with the Indian Navy that is currently drafting technical requirements for the new fighter competition. Boeing, which makes the Super Hornet, has also shared this data with the Indian Navy.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Aditya G »

Vidur wrote:Intent, statements and action very rarely align in Indian Defence. The Naval budget is not enough even to pay for contracts signed before the MH-60 Romeo contract. How it will cater for the above requirements is a deep mystery. The situation is the same for the Air Force and Army.
A lot of deliveries (thus payments due) are expected in next 2-3 years, which should mean a lot of payments will also been made. I think that will just be the time when Project-75I should be ready for contract.

I am hoping MCM contract will be signed imminently with some miracle.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by AkshaySG »

Rakesh wrote:Please ignore the title, just quoting the most relevant part.

With MiG-29s falling apart, its time to pitch in the Rafale-M for the Indian Navy
https://www.defenceaviationpost.com/202 ... dian-navy/
. Sources said that extensive tests and software analysis have been conducted by the French side on the Rafale to show that it can operate with a meaningful load from ski-jump carriers. This data has also been shared with the Indian Navy that is currently drafting technical requirements for the new fighter competition. Boeing, which makes the Super Hornet, has also shared this data with the Indian Navy.
As i said a couple of days ago , I wouldn't mind a combined IAF+IN order for more Rafales which could then share parts, facilities and even operational necessities (Like the Mig29-k's getting sent North after Doklam) .

But I have no idea how IN thinks they can remotely afford even a squadron of these when there are so many other critical necessities to be met in the next few years (More armament, protection for P-17 and other destroyers, frigates , A lot of helos which need to be replaced , P-75I and other sub programs, Properly arming the current scorpenes , More SSN/SSBN's, More drones etc )

Its like applying another layer of Gold Paint on the car when the engine is in dire need of service
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by brar_w »

An F/A-18E Super Hornet completed the launch from a ski jump ramp during a demo at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland. Here’s the first image.

Image
Although the demonstration was carried out in August this year, and the news was out since then, the first photo of an F/A-18E Super Hornet completing a ski jump launch at NAS Patuxent River, MD, has just been released.

The take off from the ramp at Pax River was conducted as part of a demo arranged for the Indian Navy, which has been in talks for the potential acquisition of Super Hornets for its STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) aircraft carriers, such as the INS Vikramaditya and the under-construction INS Vikrant. The Indian Navy has expressed interest in potentially purchasing Super Hornets to complement its MiG-29K Fulcrums and the demonstration was completed to ensure the jets could launch from the Indians’ aircraft carriers.

“The extensive planning and day-to-day coordination between the F/A-18 & EA-18G Program Office International Business and Test and Evaluation (T&E) teams, Air Test and Evaluation Squadron (VX) 23, and aircraft manufacturer, The Boeing Company, resulted in a series of test events late this summer demonstrating the capability in a variety of load configurations,” says an article published by Naval Aviation News and written by Carrie Munn, F/A-18 and EA-18G Program Office Communications.

“The India ski jump demonstration is exactly what we do in developmental flight test with mitigating risk through extensive and detailed test planning and safe execution,” the program office T&E Lead, Jackie Dvorak, said.

“The supporting team worked with Boeing’s simulation data and information gleaned from previous ski jumps conducted with the F/A-18 Hornet and F-35B Lightning II to develop an Interim Flight Test Clearance. They identified a suitable test jet and instrumented it to capture data in real-time and completed multiple test events.”

The demo was attended by representatives from the Indian Embassy along with Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Navy for International Program Rear Adm. Frank Morley. Both watched the ski jump launch and were briefed about the potential sale of the Super Hornets to the Indian Navy.

Interestingly this wasn’t the first time a Hornet carried out ski jump take offs. An Air Force Systems Command, dated 1991, says that between 1982 and 1986 “a metal ramp was constructed that could be modified to give ramp exit angles of 3, 6, and 9 degrees. The ramp was 112.1 feet long and 8.58 feet high at ‘he exit when configured for the 9 degree exit angle, measured from the horizontal. A total of 112 launches of the T-2C, 28 of the F-14, and 91 of the F/A-18 were made. The minimum ground roll for the F/A-18 was 385 feet at a gross weight of 32,800 lbs. This ramp effectively reduced the takeoff roll of the F-18 by more than 50 percent.”...
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chola »

^^^ Not going to lie, I want to see the F-18 flying off the Vikrant. That picture is electric.

(Especially after watching the Top Gun II trailer.)
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Vivek K »

chola wrote:^^^ Not going to lie, I want to see the F-18 flying off the Vikrant. That picture is electric.

(Especially after watching the Top Gun II trailer.)
ET too....!

Now I understand why it was so difficult for my family to be successful in an import substitution project in the 90s. If I knew then what I know now, I would never have invested our lives for Mera Bharat Mahaan.

It is evident that a) there was a reason an English company waltzed in and enslaved us, and b) We cannot shake off our colonial mindset 7 decades later.

So I will from now on change tack - attack LCA, Arjun, Akash, Astra, Shivalik as wasteful and incomplete, incompetent developments and that we should all wait with baited breath for the mighty Rafale and the majestic F-18! All hail the Queen.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chola »

^^^ Vivek ji, I only say that because the Navy had already put the kibbosh on the NLCA. It is either this (or Rafale M) or more MiGs before the TEDBF.

If the NLCA were still in play, I'd put the F-18 aside. That said, I won't lie I had fantasies about India getting the 'Teens (F-14,-15, -16, -18) since I was a kid.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

chola wrote:^^^ Not going to lie, I want to see the F-18 flying off the Vikrant. That picture is electric.

(Especially after watching the Top Gun II trailer.)
Chola, please take this in the right spirit.

Do not get enamored by Hollywood's ability to spin a narrative that American military equipment is so world class and top notch, that the rest of the world is useless onlee. A movie is just a movie.

The pilot critiquing the Top Gun trailer is a retired F-18 pilot.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by m_saini »

yeah doesn't make much sense getting upset over our acquisition philosophy.

What will probably end up happening is that we'll get a squadron of F-18s alongwith a squadron of Rafale-Ms and some new 29Ks so we can mix and match them on our carriers. When(if) TEDBF comes, we'll order about a dozen and task ADA to make some 5th gen naval jets (or modify AMCA) since 4th gen won't cut anymore and term the whole ordeal as some sort of learning experience :mrgreen:

(just kidding. reality will be much more painful)
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by krishna_krishna »

chola wrote:^^^ Vivek ji, I only say that because the Navy had already put the kibbosh on the NLCA. It is either this (or Rafale M) or more MiGs before the TEDBF.

If the NLCA were still in play, I'd put the F-18 aside. That said, I won't lie I had fantasies about India getting the 'Teens (F-14,-15, -16, -18) since I was a kid.

Fantasies aside, Sir wish and pray that TEDBF be the aircraft on the vikrant with our own engines (fingers crossed for the RR engines).

With all the might from Mao sir and HVT they all want this dream to be reality
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chola »

krishna_krishna wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ Vivek ji, I only say that because the Navy had already put the kibbosh on the NLCA. It is either this (or Rafale M) or more MiGs before the TEDBF.

If the NLCA were still in play, I'd put the F-18 aside. That said, I won't lie I had fantasies about India getting the 'Teens (F-14,-15, -16, -18) since I was a kid.

Fantasies aside, Sir wish and pray that TEDBF be the aircraft on the vikrant with our own engines (fingers crossed for the RR engines).

With all the might from Mao sir and HVT they all want this dream to be reality
Krishna ji, the TEDBF is supposed to be built around the F414 thus eliminating that element of risk. (RR is allegedly helping the 110kN medium for the AMCA -- which WOULD be risky because that kind of power does not exists today from ANYBODY, the top medium class engine is the American F414 at 98kN.)
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Philip »

BoJo to the rescue with a new engine for rhe AMCA? Speculation aboot his visit in Jan. But will AMCA come in time? Some say 2024 is roll-out,first flight timetable. Why the CNS is determined to get his 59 whatever birds riding pillion on the IAF's Bullet.
Sneaky tactic,as he well knows the CV-3 is in danger of being sunk by the missiles from the CDS,who favours improving the sub fleet first and other long-pending acquisitions before a $20+B CBG arrives. But even if the IAF choose their preferred bird,say Raffy again,where will the moolah come from for the joint order,hugely inflating the bill by 50+%,which may endanger the IAF's requirement budgetwise!

The IAF needs are the day-before-yesterday while the IN's needs are the decade-after-tomorrow.Therefore,the IAF may not want the IN's anchor around their neck and cut loose the hawsers tying their req. with a desi JSF!
Huge chronological difference , n'est-ce pas?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

Tail Boom folding Mechanism on ALH Mk-III Demonstrated for Navy’s NUH Program : HAL

https://idrw.org/tail-boom-folding-mech ... ore-242925
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

sankum wrote:Tail Boom folding Mechanism on ALH Mk-III Demonstrated for Navy’s NUH Program : HAL

https://idrw.org/tail-boom-folding-mech ... ore-242925
https://twitter.com/reviewvayu/status/1 ... 99296?s=21



And that is a slam dunk. IN asked for a stowed length of 13.5m, HAL has now demonstrated a ALH with a stowed length of 13.5m


So as I see it there are TWO options that HAL has put on the table for the IN to select from (or 2 options they are exploring in parallel and internally they will come up with the best option and apply it to their diet NUH-compliant ALH variant)

1) 2-segment 4 (technically 3) blade folding with a FIXED tail boom

*OR*

2) a folding tail boom with 2 blades (the ones in the 9 and 3 o’clock positions) folding to the rear with the 12 o’clock blade fixed forward

It’s not clear to me if HAL is looking at combining these two options or if it is even necessary


After the China virus and the associated costs are added up there’s not a chance in this world that these utterly absurd boondoggles will be entertained anymore.


Either Navy HQ gets over their decades old grudge with HAL or they continue to fly the, now 60 year old design, Chetak from their frontline $1bn USD destroyers and frigates.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by AkshaySG »

Weird to see Navy ignore currently available and hugely required helos which are built in India to continue to talk about another 57 phoren fighters and CBG 3 neither of which do they have the budget for , And tbh both of which are not as critical as other aquisitions .

The Cheetahs/Chetaks should be getting replaced right now with HAL products in big numbers and yet we're stuck with a Navy who doesn't want em and a Ka-226 order that's going nowhere
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

K Singh

1) 2-segment 4 (technically 3) blade folding with a FIXED tail boom destroyers and frigates.
Technically one minus blade folding is only for odd number of blades.
For AlH all 4 blades have to be folded.

Only option for NUH is ALH as Coast guard has settled for final projected fleet of 28 ALH.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by kvraghav »

Dhruv blade diameter is 13.2 meters. Hal has ensured that the tail boom folds within the rear blade which effectively means that the folded length of this alh is within 13.2 meters even with the front blade straight. I think if you have more width, rotating the whole setup a little would even reduce the straight length unless fastening the blades in such cases is not possible
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by brar_w »

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chola »

^^^ We need that baby to carry a load next! Even if it is just A2A config with MRAAMs and SRAAMs.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

Vivek K wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ Not going to lie, I want to see the F-18 flying off the Vikrant. That picture is electric.

(Especially after watching the Top Gun II trailer.)
ET too....!

Now I understand why it was so difficult for my family to be successful in an import substitution project in the 90s. If I knew then what I know now, I would never have invested our lives for Mera Bharat Mahaan.

It is evident that a) there was a reason an English company waltzed in and enslaved us, and b) We cannot shake off our colonial mindset 7 decades later.

So I will from now on change tack - attack LCA, Arjun, Akash, Astra, Shivalik as wasteful and incomplete, incompetent developments and that we should all wait with baited breath for the mighty Rafale and the majestic F-18! All hail the Queen.
Not I for sure nor those who really matter.

This hare-brained idea is to sink naval aircraft development in India.
As long a NaMo is PM this wont happen am sure.


If this sort of bokwas persists expect some drastic action.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Vivek K »

The success of the NLCA must lead to an aircraft development. It has per a statement of Cmmdr Mao shown good results and better than expected performance.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Mort Walker »

This is clever salesmanship of Boeing. They are good at what they do, which is making good aircraft, but don't offer as good bribes as the Russians. If anything is going to kill the Naval LCA, it will be further purchases of those ocean anchor pilot killers known as the Mig-29K.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by brar_w »

Boeing is responding to its customer and a potential opportunity. The IN showed interest and issued an RFI. There is probably more broader engagement than that. GOI officials were present at this demonstration and the IN was supposed to be there as well based on some reports (but couldn't due to COVID). So if the whole thing fizzles or appears to fizzle out they'll probably also dial their investments back. Dassault is likewise doing something very similar. If MiG got the RFI, I'm sure they too are doing something to show to the IN/MOD why they are the best option.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Philip »

Yep,and according to a former chief,aviator to boot,unable to fit onto the carrier's lifts,they are trying an absurd system of tilting their bird on the lifts on a cradle! Just imagine the extra deck work involved for our sailors on the high seas especially in rough weather!

If it's for IAC-2,some 15 years hence,if at all,then let's do a " Rip Van Winkle" and slumber along until the next decade. The convolutions and waiting for the 3rd. large EMALS CV reminds me of Beckett's classic play " Waiting for Godot".

Boeing is hoping to pressgang the IN,GOI into buying SHs when we have no carrier that can operate them, have enough 29Ks for both the Vik-A and V-2,plus huge shortfalls in LUHs,ASW helos- over 200 req. for both, subs,torpedoes for subs,MCMs,TAS systems among many other items! Apart from murdering the NLCA/ TEDBF or NAMCA whatever, crippling our indigenous carrier fighter programme, a 4th-gen aging bird for a 5th to 6th-gen future scenario isn't the cleverest decision to take. It will be an act of sheer absurdity to acquire 36+ SHs right now rith no CV #3,adding yet another new type to operate and sustain,that too from a nation that constantly reminds us about sanctions if we continue to buy superior Russian weaponry like the S-400s which the air chief has said is vital to counter the Sino- Pak JV against India.We do remember how the LCA programme was sabotaged by the US not too long ago.

PS: 29Ks aren't "dropping from the skies".True we've lost a few,one reportedly due to a bird strike. The Japanese navy not too long ago lost an F-35B in the Pacific,aircraft and crew both lost,but they've not run around like headless chickrns cancelling F-35 orders. The USN which operates the largest carrier forces that the world has seen have had umpteen crashes of aircraft at sea,along with lesser navies.The IN too had its share of Sea Harrier crashes too. No navy or its aircraft are perfect.Crashes and accidents happen.The task is reducing these incidents to the barest minimum not taking shortcuts with safety of man and machine.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Mort Walker »

The only option is the Naval LCA. The Mig-29Ks should be returned to Russia for a refund. Three of 45 have been lost by the IN in the last 13 months.

As far as the F/A-18 being too big for Indian carriers, they are the same size as the Mig-29K and have folding wings too.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 22 Dec 2020 12:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

Mort Walker wrote:The Mig-29Ks should be returned to Russia for a refund. The IN doesn't need them.
Mort Walker wrote:This is clever salesmanship of Boeing. They are good at what they do, which is making good aircraft, but don't offer as good bribes as the Russians. If anything is going to kill the Naval LCA, it will be further purchases of those ocean anchor pilot killers known as the Mig-29K.
:roll: :((
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by brar_w »

Philip wrote:Yep,and according to a former chief,aviator to boot,unable to fit onto the carrier's lifts,they are trying an absurd system of tilting their bird on the lifts on a cradle! Just imagine the extra deck work involved for our sailors on the high seas especially in rough weather!
There is not a single aspect of what Boeing is proposing, whether that is ski-ramp performance, or carrier suitability, that can't be evaluated across a range of operational conditions and sea-states. So whether that is take off performance, bring back weight, loading and unloading stores, moving aircraft up and down the elevator, removing and replacing an engine, loading and offloading data etc etc - it can all be evaluated and compared by the IN's test and evaluation team. Same applies to the Rafale or the MiG-29K. Obviously, if this goes beyond RFI, a more formal evaluation would be required.
Last edited by brar_w on 22 Dec 2020 22:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by brar_w »

Some info on Sea Guardian payloads from General Atomics :

Image

https://issuu.com/globalmediapartners/d ... TIzODkzMTY
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Philip wrote:Yep.....
Is it possible for you to use a spell checker when typing? Just a humble request.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/Aditya_G_Social/sta ... 95137?s=20 ---> Airbus A319 ASW concept for India. Pre-dates the Boeing P-8I acquisition.

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by brar_w »

The project still hasn’t resulted in flying hardware. With the French going in for a smaller Dassault business jet platform, there will likely be a substantial delay in this project as they are usually the ones ( in a European project) who can hold schedules and budgets stable to get something as initially planned.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 99296?s=20 ---> The demonstration of tail boom folding operation was carried out 7 Nov’20 on ALH Mk-III DWDM prototype. In combination with existing 2 blade folding, the achieved stowage dimension of ALH (13.5 m length, 3.5 m width & 4.1 m height) meets the Navy's NUH specification.

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 11425?s=20 ---> HAL: Qualification/certification of the Tail Boom scheme is expected to be completed by Feb 2021. The concept studies were completed earlier and now the modified components are being realised and integrated onto the platform.

Image

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

---
Last edited by Rakesh on 25 Dec 2020 21:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Already posted & discussed in the INS Vikrant thread. Post Deleted.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 04832?s=20 ---> Due to budgetary constraints, Indian Navy is reducing number of platforms of various systems to be acquired:

1) 34-36 4.5 gen fighters for aircraft carriers in place of 57

2) 6 P-8I MPA instead of 10

3) 8 Minesweepers instead of 12

4) Two Landing Platform Docks instead of four.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 21921?s=20 ---> * additional P-8I (total will be 18).
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

From closest to furthest - Boeing P-8I, MiG-29K and BAe Hawk trainer, all belonging to the Indian Naval Air Arm.

Image
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

sanjayc wrote:India to sign $2.5-billion contract for 56 transport planes for IAF
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... Tj2SJ.html
https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 49984?s=20 ---> This deal will also pave the way for a Contract for 9 C-295 MMMPA at a later stage.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

That 34 might be a typo, it should be 36.

Indian Navy goes for ‘prioritisation of acquisitions' to make up for the budget constraints
https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 42339.html
28 Dec 2020
“We will be inducting 34 fighters for aircraft carriers in place of 57. We wanted 10 P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft, we are accepting 6.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

I stand corrected. That 34 may not be a typo after all.

From 57 to 36 and now to 34. Wow.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by kit »

Mort Walker wrote:The Mig-29Ks should be returned to Russia for a refund. The IN doesn't need them.
Not sure whether Russia works like Amazon :mrgreen:
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