Indian Naval Aviation

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sajaym
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sajaym »

srai wrote: What’s that big cylinder inside?
Dunking sonar equipment.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

brar_w wrote:Source is an aggregator blog that doesn't link a source, but attributes the image to the US Navy - http://alert5.com/2021/04/21/indias-fir ... has-flown/
Great shot. Thank you for the source. These choppers cannot come soon enough!
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sajaym »

https://www.defenseworld.net/news/27071 ... IAxu1lX40M

The first 3 are from US Navy stock, perhaps that's why the image is attributed to US Navy.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by brar_w »

This is an FMS case so the USN's program office is running the program on behalf of GoI so most of the PR is going to happen through the service executive office responsible for the MH-60R program.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy’s First MH-60R Maritime Helicopter Takes Flight
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... es-flight/
21 April 2021
The Indian Navy MH-60R weapons package is expected to include Kongsberg’s Naval Strike Missile in its helicopter launched variant (known as NSM-HL).
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 55267?s=20 ---> Indian Navy issues RFI for leasing 24 utility helicopters for five years.

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Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Philip »

LIMO.Does it mean dropping LWTs?
Manish_P
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Torpedoes would mean the highest intensity naval warfare :)

LIMO is broadly search,track, capture piracy/naval-borne terrorism/high value asset protection/rescue ops etc..
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Thales selected by Lockheed Martin to deliver ALFS dipping sonars to US Navy and FMS customers
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... customers/
27 April 2021

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Vivek K
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Vivek K »

Vik's delivery by end of 2021 is great news. What aircraft will the carrier operate? IN has 45 29 ks correct? so half would operate from the Vikrant?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rupesh »

IIRC only 42 are available now. 3 crashed.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Vivek K wrote:Vik's delivery by end of 2021 is great news. What aircraft will the carrier operate? IN has 45 29 ks correct? so half would operate from the Vikrant?
MiG-29K/KUBs and hopefully a flight of Naval Tejas for aircraft carrier testing.
nachiket
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by nachiket »

Rupesh wrote:IIRC only 42 are available now. 3 crashed.
And unfortunately, all 3 were KUB trainers. Makes an order for some LCA Navy Trainers at least necessary IMO.

There was also another KUB which crashed in Russia during testing before it was delivered to the IN. I am assuming the Russians replaced that one and we still got all 45 contracted aircraft.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

One Mig 29 KUB got damaged while taking off in January 2018 and is also write-off. Total 4 have been lost. Present fleet is 41 nos strong.
nachiket
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by nachiket »

How many total KUB trainers had we ordered?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

nachiket wrote:How many total KUB trainers had we ordered?
Nachi, from this link ---> https://www.naval-technology.com/projec ... -aircraft/
In January 2004, India placed an order for 12 MiG-29K single-seat and four MiG-29KUB two-seat fighters.
then a second batch of MiG-29 naval fighters were placed....
In March 2010, India signed a $1.5bn contract with Russia for an additional 29 MiG-29Ks.
How many KUBs in the second batch are there, I am not aware.

At least two MiG-29KUBs - in Indian Naval service - have crashed in Nov 2019 and Nov 2020. I am not counting the crash from June 2011, as that was a pre-delivery crash.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

Total 8 mig 29 KUB were there as far as I remember.
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Folks, put the MiG-29 crashes in perspective. Look at the data below...

1. MiG-29K crash - FIRST CRASH

MiG 29K crash followed 8 years of engine troubles & frustration about performance
https://theprint.in/report/mig-29k-cras ... les/26345/
03 Jan 2018

2. MiG-29KUB crash - BIRD STRIKE & WRITE OFF

MiG-29K fighter aircraft crashes soon after take off in Goa, pilots eject safely
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/m ... 2019-11-16
16 Nov 2019

3. MiG-29K crash - WRITE OFF

Navy jet MiG-29K crashes in Goa, probe ordered to look into lapses
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/n ... 2020-02-23
20 Feb 2020

4. MiG-29KUB crash - WRITE OFF

MiG-29K trainer aircraft crashes into Arabian sea; 1 pilot rescued, another missing
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/m ... 2020-11-27
27 Nov 2020

So out of 45 aircraft, four have crashed and 41 are left. All four crashes are write-offs or hull losses. How many KUBs are left can only be determined when we figure how many - if any - twin seaters were delivered in the second batch.

Now take a look at the Sea Harrier crash rate. This one is a shocker. 28 Sea Harriers were inducted in total, starting in 1983. These birds were retired in 2016. So they served for a total of 33 years. At the end of her service life, reportedly only 11 were left. So 17 aircraft either crashed or were beyond repair. That is an attrition rate of 61% in 3+ decades or roughly 20% of the fleet got written off every decade.
Navy de-inducts Sea Harriers, makes way for MiG 29K fighter
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 863_1.html
11 May 2016

The Navy, which initially had 28 Sea Harriers, today de-inducted 11 remaining ones.
The MiG-29K/KUB attrition in comparison - inducted in December 2009 - has been service for over 11+ years now. Four have crashed to date. That is a "current" attrition rate of close to 9%. Therefore 9% of the fleet has been written off in 1+ decade of service. Maintaining this level of attrition will result in an attrition rate far lower than that of the Sea Harrier.

There are glaring issues with the MiG-29 fleet in the Indian Navy. No doubt about that. But the numbers do not lie.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

sankum wrote:Total 8 mig 29 KUB were there as far as I remember.
If true, that is great news. So six are left, which is a respectable number and can be used for training duties.

That still should not negate the need to acquire a small fleet of Naval Tejas Mk1s.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

Proposal was there for 8 naval Tejas mk1 split equally between single seater and trainer.
Its cancelled for saving money for TEDBF.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by nachiket »

sankum wrote:Proposal was there for 8 naval Tejas mk1 split equally between single seater and trainer.
Its cancelled for saving money for TEDBF.
That doesn't make sense. First flight of TEDBF is expected around 2026. This isn't a straight development from the Tejas like the Mk2. It will require considerable amount of testing and validation. It is not going to be available before 2035. So they are saving money for something they will be buying 14-15 years from now. Meanwhile they only have half the number of trainers needed to qualify pilots on carrier takeoffs and landings.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

6 - 8 Tejas naval trainers would be a good addition to the fleet. Also valuable, long term usage data can be gathered for TEDBF. MiG-29K simulators also exist for training pilots as well, but nothing beats real world experience...especially when it comes to landing and taking off from aircraft carriers. The requirement is all the more urgent with INS Vikrant joining the fleet by the end of this year.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
sankum wrote:Total 8 mig 29 KUB were there as far as I remember.
If true, that is great news. So six are left, which is a respectable number and can be used for training duties.

That still should not negate the need to acquire a small fleet of Naval Tejas Mk1s.
Rakesh ji

Not entirely sure, but haven't they been making some ad-hoc purchases in the interim to cater to the attrition

especially the trainers are hugely valuable assets.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Chetak, no ji please.

If indeed 8 MiG-29KUBs were acquired, as sankum states, then six twin seaters are still left. And while six is certainly not an optimal solution, it is better than nothing. This is all the more reason to acquire a flight of Tejas twin seaters. Flog these birds and gain valuable data to apply in the TEDBF program. Look at the areas of wear & tear and corrosion, after a few years of use. The F404 turbofan is proven on the F-18A/B/C/D variants. There should be no surprises there.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Vivek K »

Agree with the good Admiral! We need to build up and not keep begging the world over!
A Deshmukh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by A Deshmukh »

Rakesh wrote:Folks, put the MiG-29 crashes in perspective. Look at the data below...

The MiG-29K/KUB attrition in comparison - inducted in December 2009 - has been service for over 11+ years now. Four have crashed to date. That is a "current" attrition rate of close to 9%. Therefore 9% of the fleet has been written off in 1+ decade of service. Maintaining this level of attrition will result in an attrition rate far lower than that of the Sea Harrier.

But the numbers do not lie.
Admiral sir,

The attrition rate in the first decade (new aircraft)
may not remain the same in the 2nd and 3rd decades.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Vivek K »

Rakesh - the attrition rate is perhaps directly related to serviceability. With the 29ks spending so much time in the shop, their usage is so little and perhaps contributing to the lower attrition rates.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by John »

Vivek K wrote:Rakesh - the attrition rate is perhaps directly related to serviceability. With the 29ks spending so much time in the shop, their usage is so little and perhaps contributing to the lower attrition rates.
While SHAR had high serviceability in other services we had numerous issues due to sanctions and parts. After the sanction close to half where grounded for a while.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

A Deshmukh wrote:Admiral sir,

The attrition rate in the first decade (new aircraft)
may not remain the same in the 2nd and 3rd decades.
I agree. No need for sir though.
Vivek K wrote:Rakesh - the attrition rate is perhaps directly related to serviceability. With the 29ks spending so much time in the shop, their usage is so little and perhaps contributing to the lower attrition rates.
Yes absolutely. But we don't have flight hours data to compare. CAG reports had stated that the serviceability was dismally low. But in 2016 (or 2017), the serviceability rate went above 70%. But still we do not know how many hours the fleet is doing vis-à-vis the Sea Harrier.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 87398?s=20 ---> Indian Navy's Boeing P-8I Neptune MPA has a tail mounted AN/ASQ-508A Advanced Integrated Magnetic Anomaly Detector (MAD). The P-8I Neptune is the only version of the P-8 that has a MAD. Nine P-8Is are in service, 3 more will be delivered in 2021. 6 more P-8Is have been ordered.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Biden admin okays proposed sale of six P-8I patrol aircraft to India
https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... a-7297589/
01 May 2021
The Indian Navy had procured eight P-8I aircraft from Boeing in January 2009 via direct commercial sale and contracted for an additional four aircraft in July 2016.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by jaysimha »

Ministry of Defence
ALH MK III AIRCRAFT OF INDIAN NAVY FITTED WITH MEDICAL ICU
Posted On: 30 MAY 2021 4:52PM by PIB Delhi

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePa ... ID=1722919

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by basant »

US Navy hands over multi role helicopters to India
July 17, 2021 08:17

In yet another sign of strengthening India-US defense relationship, the US Navy has handed over the first two MH-60R Multi Role Helicopters to the Indian Navy.

The Indian Navy is procuring 24 of these helicopters manufactured by Lockheed Martin under foreign military sales from the US government at an estimated cost of USD2.4 billion.

A ceremony was held at the Naval Air Station North Island or NAS North Island, San Diego on Friday that marked the formal transfer of the helicopters from US Navy to Indian Navy.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Barath »

One milestone in the Sea King replacement saga that started from late 1990s/early 2000s.

An RFP was issued in 2008. Trials in 2011. [Rejection of FMS offer for Sikorsky in 2011 also]. Appeal/Complaint by the makers of NH90 against the inclusion/selection of Sikorsky. Selection of sikorsky. Failure to negotiate a deal by India, citing price, leading to eventual lapse. Plan for EOI. Plan for FMS. Delay of 2+2 meetings to ask for FMS. Order for the MH60R and now finally the first two are here.

Even after all 24 arrive, this will not be the end of the saga. You still have the NMRH EOI/RFI/RFP vs IMRH coninuation.

https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/in ... ers-05075/
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2017/ ... -lockheed/
https://www.iqpc.com/media/7905/10235.pdf
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

Indian navy's MH-60R.


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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by sankum »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 9.ece/amp/
. All the three services are on board the project. The Navy has already given their requirements, and we are discussing them right now. It will be a second platform with two different versions
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by VKumar »

chetak wrote:Indian navy's MH-60R.
Does it carry torpedoes? AAM? Cannon?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

VKumar wrote:
chetak wrote:Indian navy's MH-60R.
Does it carry torpedoes? AAM? Cannon?
torpedoes yes, but why would they need to carry AAMs or cannon?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by VKumar »

AAMs for defence against planes/helicopters. Cannon against low value targets like pirates.
All round ability.
Probably wouldn't cost too much to provide basic level stuff.
Particularly if used in SAR or insertion/retrieval of SF on enemy shore.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by kit »

VKumar wrote:AAMs for defence against planes/helicopters. Cannon against low value targets like pirates.
All round ability.
Probably wouldn't cost too much to provide basic level stuff.
Particularly if used in SAR or insertion/retrieval of SF on enemy shore.
It would be like using a sledge hammer for a small nail!! The MH 60R is a heavy-duty anti sub anti-ship system., not for use against pirates.
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