Indian Naval Aviation

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nachiket
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by nachiket »

Pratyush wrote: Aren't they already there.
P 75I is not going anywhere.
P76 won't happen unless the P 75I happens.
Nuclear attack boats. Don't know.
Some old Shishumars and Kilos will soldier on for a while. There is still time to get more boats before the last of them is retired. But good luck with that if the IN blows its budget on Rafales or F-18's. We are already dealing with a procurement setup where actually making a final decision is heresy.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Prem Kumar »

Good news! IN will buy only 26 and not 57 carrier-borne fighters (F-18 or Rafale). They are calling it an "interim buy" till TEDBF is ready!

That's a seriously good commitment to Atmanirbhar!

Contrast with IAF Chief calling Tejas-Mk2 as an interim-solution
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Link Prem?

If it has anything to do with the tweet below, then I will reserve judgement. The same Vice Admiral mentioned below, stated that there will be no delay in the delivery of the pair of Talwar Class vessels in Russia. The Russian SY - a few weeks later - said the opposite.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... EDTUDucmqA ---> Breaking News: TEDBF will be the final aircraft to be flying from Vikrant. There is no design flaw with the lifts of Vikrant: Vice Admiral Satish Ghormade, VCNS.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by V_Raman »

So they cant make do with LCA navy in the interim and blow billions on a new fighter type?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by bala »

The trend in the services is Emergency procurement at the last moment by blaming all things and highlighting urgency. The Rafale itself was procured as a last moment deal with Govt-to-Govt negotiations. Don't understand why we need Rafale (we all know it fits the bill and is capable and so on) when we have top cover Su-30MKI as the big dog in the fight. Similarly we are now into emergency purchase of either shornet or frog rafale-m. Currently India is not in some tussle with any nation. NLCA is a good alternate in the stop gap along with Mig-29 KUB. We need to hasten the TEDBF timelines. The experience from NLCA is a good guide to work on the heavy pounding aircraft mechanicals including the landing gear, only the twin engine config with aerodynamics need to be worked upon. Can we wait out the few years it would take to make all this happen? Give our guys a tighter schedule challenge and put everyone to work in the same direction. What is the point of having a motley crew of aircrafts in the service. Good for resume building of Indian Navy pilots. So many systems to keep track of and expertize gets spread thin.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

:lol:

Indian Navy designed Vikrant for operating MiG-29K: Vice Admiral SN Ghormade
https://newz7.in/indian-navy-designed-v ... made-news/
25 Aug 2022
Vice Chief of Indian Navy Vice Admiral SN Ghormade briefed media persons about the designing of India’s first indigenously-built aircraft carrier Vikrant. He said that the Indian Navy designed the Vikrant for operating the MiG-29K.While addressing the Press Conference, SN Ghormade said, “We designed the Vikrant for operating the MiG-29K but we would be ultimately deploying the indigenous TEDBF fighter aircraft for which we are working with DRDO. For the interim, we are looking at Rafale and F-18 aircraft and trials have been carried out.”

“Indigenisation is the way ahead for us and we would want our research and development organisation to develop our own capabilities of High Altitude Long Endurance unmanned aerial vehicle,” he added.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

The MiG-29K will be retired in the early 2030s, as per the plan. So they will have Rafale M or F-18SH + TEBDF. The Vikrant will be in service for the next 50 years. So expect a retirement date of 2072. Aircraft carriers do serve for half a century, it not more.

The old Vikrant (ex-Hercules) was launched in 1945, but was never commissioned. She remained in port until her transfer to India in 1957, eventual commission in 1961 and decommission in 1997. That is 52 years. The Viraat was commissioned as the Hermes in the Royal Navy in 1959, decommissioned in 1984, sold to India in 1986, recommissioned in 1987 and then decommissioned again in 2017. That is 58 years.

What are they going to do with the Rafale M or F-18SH, once the TEDBF comes on board? Are they planning on operating two different fighter types or will they retire/transfer the interim aircraft?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rafale or Super Hornets are ‘interim arrangement’ only, says Navy on mega fighter deal
https://theprint.in/defence/rafale-or-s ... l/1099609/
25 Aug 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote:Rafale or Super Hornets are ‘interim arrangement’ only, says Navy on mega fighter deal
https://theprint.in/defence/rafale-or-s ... l/1099609/
25 Aug 2022
An absolute clarity of vision.

I just wish that the submarine arm also gets a dose of this.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by vcsekhar »

V_Raman wrote:So they cant make do with LCA navy in the interim and blow billions on a new fighter type?
As had been explained by Cmdr Mao, the existing LCA Navy cannot be operational due to various limitations. It has served its purpose of development and demonstration of carrier ops. Maybe it could be used for carrier qualification and operation training for young pilots.

An operational LCA would need higher power engine to be able to carry a useful load for the mission, this might be done with the LCA Mk2 or the TEDBF
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

The current NLCA with a catapult will be quite useful for the Indian Navy.

But we don't have catapult carrier.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

V_Raman wrote:So they cant make do with LCA navy in the interim and blow billions on a new fighter type?
My takeaway is this "interim" term that the VCNS is using, means Rafale M. They will pick the Rafale M to serve aboard the Vikrant, till the TEDBF is ready. But what will they do with the Rafale M, once the TEDBF is ready for service? Although that will be only in the 2030s, the MRCBF fleet will still be relatively new. The Rafale M is identical to the Rafale C/B, with only the arresting hook and the strengthened landing gear on the former. They can transfer that fleet + weaponry + tools + spares to the IAF, which would be more than happy to accept the Navy Rafales as it would greatly add to their own Rafale fleet. Negligible increase in squadron strength, but massive boost to firepower capability.

The Rafale M will any day be more capable and more reliable than the MiG-29K. From that measure, transitioning to the Rafale M will be night-and-day. The IAF will not touch the F-18SH with a barge pole. So if the F-18SH is chosen, the Navy will have to operate two fleet types in the coming decades ahead. I don't believe that is a scenario that the Navy wants to entertain, mainly due to budgetary concerns. And they will have to transfer the MRCBF fleet over to the IAF. Because purchasing a measly 31 TEDBFs (out of 57 MRCBF aircraft) will be very expensive. They will have to go all in on an order of minimum 57 aircraft. Although I believe the number will be even higher than 57 to achieve program success.

These reasons are why Admiral Karambir Singh stated that the Navy will hop on to whatever aircraft the IAF chooses in the 114 MRFA contest. His successor - the present Navy Chief and the rest of Naval HQ - have been tight lipped on this issue. Kudos to them.

Unless they plan on leasing 26 airframes. If that is the case, then the F-18SH stands a much better chance of winning the contest. Lease them for 10 to 12 years, till the TEDBF enters service. But the Navy wants to purchase these aircraft and not lease them. Also, Dassault wants a minimum 100 aircraft order - like all the other OEMs in the MRFA contest - to transfer the Rafale production line to India. Minus 26 from 100 and you are left with 74 airframes (around 4 squadrons worth). Could the Modi Govt pull this off - post 2024 elections - if they come back to power?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Cain Marko »

vcsekhar wrote:
V_Raman wrote:So they cant make do with LCA navy in the interim and blow billions on a new fighter type?
An operational LCA would need higher power engine to be able to carry a useful load for the mission, this might be done with the LCA Mk2 or the TEDBF
True. Pity that it took them a decade to figure out this obvious issue when it was well known that the AF Tejas variant was low on thrust to begin with. What were they expecting when the Navy version would've been 1 ton heavier and expected to fly on short runways? Remarkable. :roll:
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by vcsekhar »

Cain Marko wrote: True. Pity that it took them a decade to figure out this obvious issue when it was well known that the AF Tejas variant was low on thrust to begin with. What were they expecting when the Navy version would've been 1 ton heavier and expected to fly on short runways? Remarkable. :roll:
It will be good to listen to the entire LCA flight testing episodes of the Blue Skies podcast by PR Ganapathy. Specifically the interview of Cdre Mao, its got some technical explanations and why it took so much time to develop the aircraft. He also pretty much says that they realized early on that the current configuration of the LCA would not meet the operational requirements but they needed it to develop the flight control laws and other aspects of landing and taking off from a ship. In this aspect, the LCA Navy was a great success.
here is a link to the podcast transcripts:
https://blueskiespodcast.com/transcripts
look for the 2 LCA Navy episodes. The podcast is very good and captures a lot of stories from the retired senior IAF officers, which otherwise would not have been accessible to the general public.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by fanne »

Current lca with f404 epe is the solution to current lca
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by mody »

Rakesh wrote:
V_Raman wrote:So they cant make do with LCA navy in the interim and blow billions on a new fighter type?
My takeaway is this "interim" term that the VCNS is using, means Rafale M. They will pick the Rafale M to serve aboard the Vikrant, till the TEDBF is ready. But what will they do with the Rafale M, once the TEDBF is ready for service? Although that will be only in the 2030s, the MRCBF fleet will still be relatively new. The Rafale M is identical to the Rafale C/B, with only the arresting hook and the strengthened landing gear on the former. They can transfer that fleet + weaponry + tools + spares to the IAF, which would be more than happy to accept the Navy Rafales as it would greatly add to their own Rafale fleet. Negligible increase in squadron strength, but massive boost to firepower capability.

The Rafale M will any day be more capable and more reliable than the MiG-29K. From that measure, transitioning to the Rafale M will be night-and-day. The IAF will not touch the F-18SH with a barge pole. So if the F-18SH is chosen, the Navy will have to operate two fleet types in the coming decades ahead. I don't believe that is a scenario that the Navy wants to entertain, mainly due to budgetary concerns. And they will have to transfer the MRCBF fleet over to the IAF. Because purchasing a measly 31 TEDBFs (out of 57 MRCBF aircraft) will be very expensive. They will have to go all in on an order of minimum 57 aircraft. Although I believe the number will be even higher than 57 to achieve program success.

These reasons are why Admiral Karambir Singh stated that the Navy will hop on to whatever aircraft the IAF chooses in the 114 MRFA contest. His successor - the present Navy Chief and the rest of Naval HQ - have been tight lipped on this issue. Kudos to them.

Unless they plan on leasing 26 airframes. If that is the case, then the F-18SH stands a much better chance of winning the contest. Lease them for 10 to 12 years, till the TEDBF enters service. But the Navy wants to purchase these aircraft and not lease them. Also, Dassault wants a minimum 100 aircraft order - like all the other OEMs in the MRFA contest - to transfer the Rafale production line to India. Minus 26 from 100 and you are left with 74 airframes (around 4 squadrons worth). Could the Modi Govt pull this off - post 2024 elections - if they come back to power?
The TEDBF is numbers will not be restricted to 57-26 = 31 only.
It is also meant for the 3 carrier. Plus Vikrant has a capacity to have upto 30 fixed wing aircrafts. If we assume, it will generally carry about 24 planes, you still need 34-35 aircrafts, assuming a 70% availability rate. Same would be required for Vikramaditya, which I reckon will serve till
2035-40. The third larger carrier would probably have a capacity to carry 36-40 fixed wing aircrafts and generally carry about 32 during normal operations. Which would mean around 42 aircrafts required for the third carrier. Total TEDBF requirement will be in the range to 70-90 aircrafts.

The lifts on the Vikrant are 10meters x 40 meters. The F/A-18 is 9.93 meters with folded wings. A tough fit. The Raffy-M is more than 10 meters and it would seem almost impossible to operate the same from the carrier.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by bala »

The lifts on the Vikrant are 10meters x 40 meters. The F/A-18 is 9.93 meters with folded wings. A tough fit. The Raffy-M is more than 10 meters and it would seem almost impossible to operate the same from the carrier.
I am wondering whether a diagonal position of aircraft work with the lift dimensions. The diagonal position would gain a few meters.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Roop »

mody wrote:... The lifts on the Vikrant are 10meters x 40 meters.
Not 40 meters but 14. The lifts are 10 x 14 meters.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by RCase »

bala wrote:
The lifts on the Vikrant are 10meters x 40 meters. The F/A-18 is 9.93 meters with folded wings. A tough fit. The Raffy-M is more than 10 meters and it would seem almost impossible to operate the same from the carrier.
I am wondering whether a diagonal position of aircraft work with the lift dimensions. The diagonal position would gain a few meters.
On a lighter note ....
No worries, there is still 0.07 m available! In true Indian fashion of driving within inches and spending an inordinate amount of time to pass each other on narrow roads, we will have guys finessing every cm till it can make it to the hangar.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Raman »

For a navy that made a stink about the difficulty of folding Dhruv's rotors manually on a pitching and rolling deck, I'm wondering how they have so easily reconciled to wrangling full fighters to within centimeters in an angry sea.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by mody »

Roop wrote:
mody wrote:... The lifts on the Vikrant are 10meters x 40 meters.
Not 40 meters but 14. The lifts are 10 x 14 meters.
My bad. Thanks for the correction.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Raman wrote:For a navy that made a stink about the difficulty of folding Dhruv's rotors manually on a pitching and rolling deck, I'm wondering how they have so easily reconciled to wrangling full fighters to within centimeters in an angry sea.
All sorts of exceptions are made for imported maal. And the Navy is supposed to be the champion of Atmanirbhar Bharat, before the term was even coined by the PM. One can only imagine what the situation must be in the Army and Air Force.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by RCase »

Rakesh wrote:
Raman wrote:For a navy that made a stink about the difficulty of folding Dhruv's rotors manually on a pitching and rolling deck, I'm wondering how they have so easily reconciled to wrangling full fighters to within centimeters in an angry sea.
All sorts of exceptions are made for imported maal. And the Navy is supposed to be the champion of Atmanirbhar Bharat, before the term was even coined by the PM. One can only imagine what the situation must be in the Army and Air Force.
Sir ji, I am sure the Navy will do Atmanirbhar Jugaad and there will be a whole round of chest thumping. Damn, they might even come up with a contraption to tilt the aircraft to roll to one side on the lift... like this:
https://youtu.be/ntqVNYqmf5g?t=239
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by hnair »

naraswami, no trolling. Thanks
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

mody wrote:The TEDBF is numbers will not be restricted to 57-26 = 31 only.
It is also meant for the 3 carrier. Plus Vikrant has a capacity to have upto 30 fixed wing aircrafts. If we assume, it will generally carry about 24 planes, you still need 34-35 aircrafts, assuming a 70% availability rate. Same would be required for Vikramaditya, which I reckon will serve till
2035-40. The third larger carrier would probably have a capacity to carry 36-40 fixed wing aircrafts and generally carry about 32 during normal operations. Which would mean around 42 aircrafts required for the third carrier. Total TEDBF requirement will be in the range to 70-90 aircrafts.

The lifts on the Vikrant are 10meters x 40 meters. The F/A-18 is 9.93 meters with folded wings. A tough fit. The Raffy-M is more than 10 meters and it would seem almost impossible to operate the same from the carrier.
I would be most happy if the TEDBF is increased in numbers beyond 57. So keeping my fingers crossed.

The Vikramaditya is iffy. She just came out of a long refit, caught fire during trials and went right back into refit. The Vikramaditya's air wing will continue with the MiG-29K/KUB. I don't believe she will embark anything else and will retire along with the MiG-29K/KUB in the early 2030s. The only viable vessel we have is the Vikrant which will be commissioned on Sept 02nd. The IAC-2 will not happen anytime soon. A follow on Vikrant Class will take 7 years as per CSL. And a CATOBAR design is expected to take 15 years, as per the Navy. But expect longer lead times on both designs --> around 9+ years for a follow on Vikrant and close to two decades for IAC-2. Those are my estimates.

The F-18SH - by all appearances - is the favoured aircraft to win. But is the Navy interested in maintaining two fleets for 3+ decades? If this was a fifth versus fourth generation platform, a valid argument exists. From the Indian Navy's perspective and operational requirements, both the Rafale M and the F-18SH fit the bill. The French beauty will fit on the lifts, minus the wingtips. Entrance to the hangar is a whole other story. If she does win, rest assured that the required adjustments will be made on the Vikrant.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

In case there was any doubt about the Rafale M not being able to operate from the Vikrant, here it is....from the horse's mouth....

Need three aircraft carriers: Vice Admiral M.A. Hampiholi
https://www.theweek.in/theweek/cover/20 ... iholi.html
28 Aug 2022
Q/ Which are the deck-based fighter jets that the Navy has shortlisted for Vikrant? How would you compare Vikrant with some of the best aircraft carriers in the world, like the Nimitz class of the US or China’s Liaoning?

A/ The flight trials and combat capability of Vikrant are initially planned to be proven with the Navy’s Light Combat Aircraft Tejas and MiG-29K. Vikrant is also capable of operating modern fighter jets like the French Rafale M and American F-16s* with modifications.
*Typo error. Meant to say F-18SH.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

French article, so French bias :)

Most of the article is behind a paywall. But click on the link below for a French-to-English translation, courtesy of Google Chacha.

The Rafale more favorite than ever in India against the Super Hornet
https://meta--defense-fr.translate.goog ... r_pto=wapp
26 Aug 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Boeing hard sells its Super Hornets as India set to commission 1st indigenous aircraft carrier
https://theprint.in/defence/boeing-hard ... r/1098031/
24 Aug 2022
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Kartik »

From Janes. The HAL Mission Computer is in testing on an IN MiG-29K. Will eventually lead to integration of Astra and other weapons like Rudra onto the MiG-29K.

New mission computer for Indian Navy MiG-29K under trial
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... nder-trial
30 Aug 2022
The Indian Navy is test-flying a new mission computer for its Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-29K/KUB carrier-borne fighter aircraft.

The mission computer has been developed by the state-owned defence company, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL). The new system is intended to give the navy the flexibility to integrate domestically developed and western-origin, air-launched weapons with the Soviet-era MiG-29K, HAL told Janes .

An industry source familiar with the project told Janes that the programme was launched in January 2021 after Russia declined to upgrade the mission computer or provide the source code to HAL.

The former Chairman and Managing Director of HAL, R Madhavan, said in a statement that the MiG-29K/KUB is limited to carrying Russian-origin weapons on air-to-air and air-to-surface missions.

“The aircraft cannot be operated with non-Russian-origin weapons without extensive modifications,” Madhavan said. “Integration of indigenous weapons or western-origin weapons with the MiG-29 is challenging because we do not have any design data or documentation on the architecture of the system.”

HAL told Janes that the Indian Navy assesses that the MiG-29K's inability to mount domestic weaponry is a “serious limitation”.

Janes has learnt that the flight computer has been in trials with the navy since June 2022. “The trials are currently ongoing. The system is being tested along various parameters,” HAL said.

“We estimate that the trials may take between six to eight months to be concluded,” an industry source added.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by mody »

I thought the HAL mission computer for the Mig-29K and Mig-29UPG was already a known quantity. That was the reason for the Astra missile was also being ordered for the Navy. The Mig-29K are the only aircrafts that the IN has. Didn't know it entered testing in June 2022 only. Hopefully the tests will go smoothly.

The Mig-29UPG already being upgraded with Indian EW suite as part of the DARE developed D-29 suite and a new mission computer. If the airframe life is enough (which should be the case for the Mig-29Ks), then even the radar might be upgraded to the Uttam MK2, same as the one being developed for the Tejas MK2. As the EW suite will be entirely ours, along with the mission computer, it might be possible. Though Russian help would be required for the new radar to work with all the other systems like the HUD and HMS etc. Maybe if buy additional 21 airframes then it might form part of the deal.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

As a side note to the above, the Indian Navy has requested both Boeing and Dassault to integrate Indian origin weaponry. Both companies have responded in the affirmative.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

vcsekhar wrote:
V_Raman wrote:So they cant make do with LCA navy in the interim and blow billions on a new fighter type?
As had been explained by Cmdr Mao, the existing LCA Navy cannot be operational due to various limitations. It has served its purpose of development and demonstration of carrier ops. Maybe it could be used for carrier qualification and operation training for young pilots.

An operational LCA would need higher power engine to be able to carry a useful load for the mission, this might be done with the LCA Mk2 or the TEDBF
The 29K/KUB fleet is finite and in decline, and being a frontline military jet and Russian at that with 2 engines is incredibly costly to operate per hour. Why not a squadron of NLCA for the OCU/LIFT to save some life on the 29K/KUBs who must be preserved for instances (where heaven forbid) they are required to be used in combat for real.

I’ll have an additional benefit of providing even more data to ADA/HAL that they can feed directly into TEDBF.

it’s a win win all around, but of course all the oxygen in the room is being sucked by the MRCBF, just like for IAF it’s MRFA.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

Rakesh will the F-18 fit the Vikramaditya lift also?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

As per Boeing yes. But I doubt the F-18 or the Rafale M will ever operate from the vessel.

Her fleet availability is abysmally low. I don't see how that will ever improve, without a serious overhaul of the entire machinery especially those boilers. And with the cost and timeframe involved, it is better to invest in a new vessel. Just quietly retire her, along with the MiG-29K/KUB fleet in the early 2030s.

I hope PM Modi announces tomorrow that a second Vikrant Class vessel is being built, followed by IAC-2 (the bells-and-whistles aircraft carrier). That will be an awesome announcement. If only wishes could come true.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

The second Vikrant class with an enlarged lift would be the obvious option.
However IN is enamored with EMALs and Nuke power which will kick the can for two decades.
Vikrant is 45Kt.
So a similar vessel with slightly higher tonnage utilizing most of Vikrant systems would be good.
Say 50Kt.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

Raman wrote:For a navy that made a stink about the difficulty of folding Dhruv's rotors manually on a pitching and rolling deck, I'm wondering how they have so easily reconciled to wrangling full fighters to within centimeters in an angry sea.
No angry sea. has to be in calm waters and no monsoon operations either.
Can thank the senior officers who signed off on the lift size without any foresight.
I wish someone wrote how that was decided.
So operations will be during the two monsoons lull
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head Ramana-ji. 50+ K tons, wider lifts, jet blast deflectors, etc.

Crawl, Walk, Run is a concept that the IN does not want to entertain. Their desire for CATOBAR - while laudable - is hurting their own capability.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

Need to cut off the NWC Rhode Island access.
IN already have their War College in Mumbai.
KSingh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh will the F-18 fit the Vikramaditya lift also?
I’d love to know how Boeing imagines they will do that considering the 29K is already quite a tight fit on Vikky’s lifts (and the hanger entry at the bottom is even more width restricted



https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... tG7XBG2jAQ

Unless their Jig puts the SH near vertical but then if Boeing can offer the jig solution why not Dassualt?
Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Need to cut off the NWC Rhode Island access.
IN already have their War College in Mumbai.
These annual Malabar Exercises have snuffed out all common sense from our Admirals.
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