Indian Naval Aviation

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Rakesh
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Pratyush wrote:WRT, the arrester gear. If the Russians have supplied the same item that is fitted to their own ship. Then it is designed to handle Su 33. A fighter considerably heavier than the Mig 29.

It should be possible for the ship to handle a heavier fighter as well.
I doubt that....

https://twitter.com/realairpower1/statu ... Q4C-6yJxTQ —> "The limiting factor is not the jet", it's the aircraft carrier... says Alain Garcia, from @Boeing, on Indian Navy's (IN) ability to operate the F/A-18E/F Block III to its full potential (if the IN selects the jet that is).

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by NRao »

^^^^^

Actually, my recollection was that the USN had produced an informal report - during Parrikar's time - that had documented the arrestor and combat ops as potential roadblocks (for the F-18).

For sure the arrestor system was designed for the MiG-29K and nothing more. The entire ship was designed for the MiG-29K.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral,

I thought that after simulator training part of the marine pilot curriculum was to actually do carrier landings. OR are you saying that completing simulator training allows you to be completely carrier ops qualified?
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by nachiket »

Kersi wrote: We already have 2 1/2 sqdns of M2000 at Gwalior. Too many eggs in on basket ???
I would think of putting it elsewhere. Say Gorakhpur.
Considering the time it takes for us to complete acquisitions and the fact that we are in the internet rumours stage right now, the Mirages might very well have been retired before the first of these new Rafales arrive, if they even do.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ks_sachin wrote:Admiral,

I thought that after simulator training part of the marine pilot curriculum was to actually do carrier landings. OR are you saying that completing simulator training allows you to be completely carrier ops qualified?
In India, naval aviators graduate from BTA (basic trainer aircraft) to HJT-16 Kiran IJT (Intermediate Jet Trainer) and then to the BAe Hawk Mk 132 AJT (Advanced Jet Trainer). This is all done from a land air base i.e. Dabolim, Goa and others. From there, they transition to a MiG-29K simulator facility that is present at Dabolim. Once that is completed, the pilots then transition to the twin seater MiG-29KUB and likely use the SBTF (Shore Based Test Facility) at Dabolim, as it mimics the ski jump of INS Vikramaditya and INS Vikrant. After all this is done, the rookie pilots then move on to the actual aircraft carrier itself. But by the time the pilots conduct their first take off and landing from an aircraft carrier, they should be fully carrier qualified as the SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) are set in stone. This is my understanding of how the training is conducted, but someone more informed can correct me if I am wrong.

Instructor pilots may likely accompany their student pilots for their first take off and landing from an aircraft carrier, but this will be to give the student pilot a real world experience. There should be little to no learning involved here, as the low serviceability of the MiG-29 fleet (the twin seater availability is worse than the single seater) does not provide much breathing room for student pilots. You either know how to take off and land from an aircraft carrier or you don't. Any deficiencies will crop up during the earlier training modules and a good instructor will catch on very quick to a rookie pilot's mistakes. These errors will be addressed right then and there, before it festers into a worse problem.

This training syllabus will change with the arrival of the new MRCBF (which is reportedly the Rafale M). So below is how the French Navy trains her naval aviators to operate the Rafale M. Expect something similar in the Indian Navy with the new MRCBF.

The French Navy uses US Navy assets (aircraft, ship and personnel) to train their carrier pilots and the training is identical to their USN counterparts. However after getting carrier qualified on US Navy aircraft carriers, French Naval aviators head back to France for training on a Rafale M simulator. They also use shored based (but not carrier capable) twin seater Rafale Bs as well. But these are more for cockpit/aircraft familiarization than anything else. Neither the French Navy (lack of a carrier capable, twin seater Rafale) or the US Navy (the twin seater F-18F is NOT utilized) use their front line, naval fighters to train their pilots to conduct carrier take offs and landings. That is an un-necessary waste of money and puts lots of avoidable strain on the airframe. All USN and USMC pilots that operate the F-18SH, F-35B and F-35C train entirely on simulators. There is also no twin seater F-35 variant out there either.

This website gives a good outline of how the USN trains her naval aviators ---> https://duotechservices.com/training-na ... 45-goshawk. I would highly recommend you read this, as it will give you a good insight into what the Indian Navy will do.

With the new MRCBF (assuming it is Rafale M, although it won't change much with the F-18SH), expect something like this:-

HTT-40 BTA ---> HJT-36 IJT ---> Hawk Mk132 AJT ---> Simulator Training (cockpit familiarization + aircraft carrier simulation) and Rafale B (real world aircraft) = graduation into a fully qualified Rafale Marine pilot*

*There will be zero room for error here, as there is no twin seater, carrier capable, Rafale M available. There is no instructor sitting behind you to correct your mistakes. You have to master how to operate from an aircraft carrier. This will appear apprehensive to the reader, but for the pilot there should be no ambiguity. He/She will be fully prepared to take off and land from an aircraft carrier.

Apologies for the long reply, but hope this answers your question.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ks_sachin »

Admiral,
As usual a superb and comprehensive riposte to my naive assumptions.
Kudos and needs to be pinned.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

Roop wrote:If (I repeat, IF) this tweet/leak/rumour about Rafale proves true, I will be very happy, of course, but I am still puzzled about the lift issue. All the persistent rumours/mutterings were that Rafale couldn't fit on Vikrant's lift, so how is it suddenly A-okay now? If Vishnu Som is saying, in effect, "no problem, Rafale fits on the lift", it's obviously because he has GoI/IN sources telling him that. So what happened -- how did the problem magically solve itself? I can't possibly be the only Rakshak wondering this.
I said from the outset what has now been confirmed- BOTH jets would face challenges on the Vikrant’s lifts. Boeing had proposed a jig to angle the bird on the lift and I had asked why the same could not apply for the Rafale? Well that’s exactly what is now reported.

So the issue hasn’t suddenly disappeared, rather it was never an issue to begin with. Dassualt would never have gone this far if they knew from day one that their jet was incompatible with the ship.

The level of obfuscation that has happened around the Rafale and MRCBF whilst SH was presented as the perfect solution confirms the reach of US MIC.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

KSingh wrote:I said from the outset what has now been confirmed- BOTH jets would face challenges on the Vikrant’s lifts. Boeing had proposed a jig to angle the bird on the lift and I had asked why the same could not apply for the Rafale? Well that’s exactly what is now reported.

So the issue hasn’t suddenly disappeared, rather it was never an issue to begin with. Dassualt would never have gone this far if they knew from day one that their jet was incompatible with the ship.

The level of obfuscation that has happened around the Rafale and MRCBF whilst SH was presented as the perfect solution confirms the reach of US MIC.
Dassault was eerily silent through all the marketing push that Boeing was doing in 2022 (and even prior) in relation to the MRCBF contest. Apart from bringing the Rafale M to Goa, Dassault did zero - absolutely zero - marketing or advertisements. I never saw a single Dassault exec touting the bird. The only pictures of the Rafale M trials at Goa were by aircraft watchers. And those pictures were horribly grainy, as they were taken from a long distance.

Compare that to Boeing who pulled no punches. From a splendid marketing campaign to high definition photos and videos (one video even had a cockpit view of a SH taking off from the ski jump at Goa), Boeing pulled out all the stops. And Boeing pulled the ultimate coup a few years back - by roping in a senior Indian Naval aviator to retire from flag rank and become the head of Boeing India. Surendra Ahuja knew the ins and outs of Indian naval aviation. He was the first to land on a Nimitz Class aircraft carrier in a T-45 Goshawk.

And you called it best - the myth that Boeing whipped up with their SH created a huge buzz. There was not a single Indian fanboy on twitter that believed that the F-18SH was not going to make the cut. Everyone believed that Boeing had it in the bag.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote:...

And you called it best - the myth that Boeing whipped up with their SH created a huge buzz. There was not a single Indian fanboy on twitter that believed that the F-18SH was not going to make the cut. Everyone believed that Boeing had it in the bag.
On twitter perhaps.. but here on BRF there were some who did present logical points on why the Rafale was the front-runner, despite the non-folding wings. Anyways the official news is due when roughly?

Who knows maybe Putin sahib will offer improved MiG-29k at fire sale discounts - buy 1 get 1 free :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by JTull »

Rakesh wrote:There was not a single Indian fanboy on twitter that believed that the F-18SH was not going to make the cut. Everyone believed that Boeing had it in the bag.
There are many who'd beg to differ. But as they say, all's well that ends well!
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by SidSoma »

Rakesh wrote: HTT-40 BTA ---> HJT-36 IJT ---> Hawk Mk132 AJT ---> Simulator Training (cockpit familiarization + aircraft carrier simulation) and Rafale B (real world aircraft) = graduation into a fully qualified Rafale Marine pilot*
And somewhere in there ... between the dashes and the arrows....lies the case for Naval Tejas. I don't think one could ask for a better naval trainer.4

Can we @ BRF recruit Mao Sir to push the case for this??
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by JTull »

Once LCA Navy PV-5 is qualified from the deck, it may form the basis for LFT after Hawk.

Without digressing from the topic of this thread, I'd like to know where newly proposed HLFT sits in this? And no one is talking about the wasted resources on IJT Sitara, of which 12 LSP airframes are sitting somewhere.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote:On twitter perhaps.. but here on BRF there were some who did present logical points on why the Rafale was the front-runner, despite the non-folding wings. Anyways the official news is due when roughly?
Honestly, even I thought F-18 was going to win. She is that good. I am cautiously optimistic and hoping that the news item is true.

I am expecting the MRCBF announcement to be made after the arrival of the last IAF Rafale. That is Serial # RB008 and is due to arrive in India on 15 Dec 2022. She is the first Rafale to be built for India and is the first F3R(I) variant to have all the ISE (India Specific Enhancements).
Manish_P wrote:Who knows maybe Putin sahib will offer improved MiG-29k at fire sale discounts - buy 1 get 1 free :mrgreen:
Fire Sale....describes the MiG-29K perfectly! :)

The Russians royally hammed us on that purchase.
JTull wrote:There are many who'd beg to differ. But as they say, all's well that ends well!
That is true.
SidSoma wrote:And somewhere in there ... between the dashes and the arrows....lies the case for Naval Tejas. I don't think one could ask for a better naval trainer.

Can we @ BRF recruit Mao Sir to push the case for this??
I doubt the Naval Tejas is going to go anywhere.

HAL/ADA have their hands full with Tejas Mk1A & Mk2, HJT-36, HTT-40, HLFT-42, TEDBF, AMCA, etc.

Wait till TEDBF comes. That will be the real deal. From BTA to Naval Fighter, everything will be Indian.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

JTull wrote:[quote="Rakesh"]There was not a single Indian fanboy on twitter that believed that the F-18SH was not going to make the cut. Everyone believed that Boeing had it in the bag.
There are many who'd beg to differ. But as they say, all's well that ends well![/quote]



Fanboys aside Rakesh ji, the IN has had a covetous eye on the rafale since long.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

I had posted this in the Naval thread at 16:15 today


In as yet unconfirmed news, the Indian Navy seems to be indicating a preference for the Rafale M naval fighters per some reports

@NewsIADN

#Dassault Rafale M is the front runner in #IndianNavy 's tender for 27 naval fighter jets

Rafale M and F-18 Super Hornet are the competitors. Navy has submitted a detailed report to MoD on the trials and the Rafale M has turned out the front runner.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 066201.cms
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

ks_sachin wrote:We r talking of conversion training. So Ambala or Hasimara.

Carrier qualification for IN will be elsewhere.
Non carrier conversion training for a set number of pilots and engineers, as defined in the contract, will take place in france. Beyond that number, all conversions will take place here using IN facilities and resources.

Depending on the state of our two carriers, as and when the Rafale M makes its appearance in India, carrier conversions may quite likely take place in India.

No reason actually as to why it cannot be done here, especially when we have all the required resources, the aircraft, the carrier and the qualified crew as well.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by SRajesh »

Though I was rooting for Rafale for the sake of commonality just a noob pooch how cooperative the French will be for us to upgrade and fire desi bombs from the planes
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: Honestly, even I thought F-18 was going to win. She is that good. I am cautiously optimistic and hoping that the news item is true.
Oh, no doubting that. Very good quality - capability, availability, serviceability. Backed by Khan MIC.
Rakesh wrote: Fire Sale....describes the MiG-29K perfectly! :)
..The Russians royally hammed us on that purchase.
Pity. The bird had potential. Still a potent design for the land-based component. Anyways water flown under the bridge. The Tejas has proven to be the mashaal which has thrown bright light on the way forward for indian military aircraft development. Had youthful jingo enthusiasm when the Tejas was being born. Now have a veterans quiet confidence in manned TEDBF, AMCA coming. Youthful jingo enthusiasm now shifted to UAVs like Ghatak.
Rakesh wrote: Wait till TEDBF comes. That will be the real deal. From BTA to Naval Fighter, everything will be Indian.
Waiting for desi turbofan. That is the real, real, real deal. Once the desi engine is achieved, every bird can be truly bhartiya.
Nabhah Sprusham Diptam
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Aditya_V »

INS Vikramaditya and its MIg 29K has been very useful, no way we could have ordered Rafales or F18s in 2004, for 12 years the navy has got valuable experience in night landings to carrier operations from 2010. We would have also not built the INS Vikrant, Western countries would not have given us the key equipment, plus if INS Vikramaditya was not there would have been no carrier for LCA Navy to take off or land on.

The Navy was operating only VSTOL Harriers from 1985 to 2010, it had huge limitations.

While clearly INS Vikramaditya and Mig 29K fleet has its negatives, I will still say the overall experience we have developed and building a ship.like INS Vikrant has overall been a very positive outcome for us.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ashthor »

Cant the Vikramaditya be moored in lakshadweep and we can use NLCA off it for both training and as a floating air base.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Why do you want to moor an aircraft carrier to a fixed position.

A cheaper option would be to enlarge an island with seperate air field within the island chain. Similar to what the PRC has done in the south china sea.

Or what the Americans have done in one of the Island in South Pacific.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rsatchi wrote:Though I was rooting for Rafale for the sake of commonality just a noob pooch how cooperative the French will be for us to upgrade and fire desi bombs from the planes
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4280#p2567609
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/thelegatein/status/ ... OiEYY_AzIg —> Indian Navy re-initiates stalled programme to buy 6 more P-8I aircraft from US. Fresh Letter of Offer and Acceptance sought from US: CNS
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by YashG »

Rakesh wrote:There was not a single Indian fanboy on twitter that believed that the F-18SH was not going to make the cut. Everyone believed that Boeing had it in the bag.
Probably only junta felt so. On BRF Rafale was aways in running.

I hope Mig29K can go to IAF when TEDBF arrives. Raffles too maybe.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

YashG wrote:
Rakesh wrote:There was not a single Indian fanboy on twitter that believed that the F-18SH was not going to make the cut. Everyone believed that Boeing had it in the bag.
Probably only junta felt so. On BRF Rafale was aways in running.

I hope Mig29K can go to IAF when TEDBF arrives. Raffles too maybe.

why... what is the need for such forced charity, especially on the part of the IN

The Mig29K is very different to the IAF Mig29s as are the Rafale Ms
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by KSingh »

YashG wrote:
Rakesh wrote:There was not a single Indian fanboy on twitter that believed that the F-18SH was not going to make the cut. Everyone believed that Boeing had it in the bag.
Probably only junta felt so. On BRF Rafale was aways in running.

I hope Mig29K can go to IAF when TEDBF arrives. Raffles too maybe.
By the time the TEDBF comes in in numbers to replace the 29Ks they’ll be battered and lucky to still be flyable. A 20 year lifespan is optimistic for this fleet, they definitely won’t have much more to
give once TEDBF is around. 29s won’t even be in service with the IAF for much longer by then
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

chetak wrote:why... what is the need for such forced charity, especially on the part of the IN

The Mig29K is very different to the IAF Mig29s as are the Rafale Ms
It is not about charity Saar, but if the airframe has life left and the airframe has utility in the IAF…then there is no harm.

You are correct about the MiG-29, but the Rafale Marine is identical to the Rafale C/B. There is no difference, other than a 500 kg weight penalty in the M variant due to the strengthened undercarriage and tail hook.

All the MiG-29K’s armament though can be reused in the IAF’s MiG-29UPG and Su-30MKI, provided they still have lift left in them when the MiG-29K is retired. So the R-77s, R-73, KAB-series, KH-series, etc.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
chetak wrote:why... what is the need for such forced charity, especially on the part of the IN

The Mig29K is very different to the IAF Mig29s as are the Rafale Ms
It is not about charity Saar, but if the airframe has life left and the airframe has utility in the IAF…then there is no harm.

You are correct about the MiG-29, but the Rafale Marine is identical to the Rafale C/B. There is no difference, other than a 500 kg weight penalty in the M variant due to the strengthened undercarriage and tail hook.

All the MiG-29K’s armament though can be reused in the IAF’s MiG-29UPG and Su-30MKI, provided they still have lift left in them when the MiG-29K is retired. So the R-77s, R-73, KAB-series, KH-series, etc.
sirji,

Its not likely to happen and the IN will continue to use them

the IN version is marinized and has a different engine so even if carrier use is not envisaged, the aircraft will still be able to add value in other ways.

Could be based in the andamans.

Armament may possible but only where there is some compatibility.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
chetak wrote:why... what is the need for such forced charity, especially on the part of the IN

The Mig29K is very different to the IAF Mig29s as are the Rafale Ms
It is not about charity Saar, but if the airframe has life left and the airframe has utility in the IAF…then there is no harm.

You are correct about the MiG-29, but the Rafale Marine is identical to the Rafale C/B. There is no difference, other than a 500 kg weight penalty in the M variant due to the strengthened undercarriage and tail hook.

All the MiG-29K’s armament though can be reused in the IAF’s MiG-29UPG and Su-30MKI, provided they still have lift left in them when the MiG-29K is retired. So the R-77s, R-73, KAB-series, KH-series, etc.
Saar,

Rafale M is marinized. The material, treatment and processing of many of the components is extremely costly and as such these will not be used in the IAF versions. Fatigue tests, shock and vibration requirements will be to a different standard and there is widespread use of specialized coatings to deal with different aspects of the marine environment.

I do not as yet have any tech details of the rafale series so one cannot go beyond the obvious generalities at this point.
There is no difference, other than a 500 kg weight penalty in the M variant due to the strengthened undercarriage and tail hook.
This, by itself will call for a different and detailed test and qualification schedule that will be mandatory for the certification.

Of course, where specifically agreed upon with certifying agencies, some other non critical tests are bound show commonality and will undergo a common test procedure

Also saar, be aware that it is not just a 500 kg weight penalty but a 500 kg additional weight hitting the deck at a very much higher g force (as compared to the non carrier version) and that will have a design penalty right across the design spectrum, components, LRUs, connectors and maybe involve a different/modified manufacturing process that will also be factored in and this may end up having an effect on the maintenance schedules as well.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote:
Roop wrote:If (I repeat, IF) this tweet/leak/rumour about Rafale proves true, I will be very happy, of course, but I am still puzzled about the lift issue. All the persistent rumours/mutterings were that Rafale couldn't fit on Vikrant's lift, so how is it suddenly A-okay now? If Vishnu Som is saying, in effect, "no problem, Rafale fits on the lift", it's obviously because he has GoI/IN sources telling him that. So what happened -- how did the problem magically solve itself? I can't possibly be the only Rakshak wondering this.
As per the news piece from Manu Pubby, the aircraft will sit at an angle on the lift. I waiting to see a video of this.
From a series of tweets, I came across this. Once again, we will have to wait till the first video comes out.

This is a French citizen, so I expect some bias for the Rafale, but he is making a claim that I find surprising.

https://twitter.com/FauteuilColbert/sta ... HVv8ROvKwA ---> Subject lifts of the INS Vikrant (2023?): they would measure 16.5 meters in length/depth for a width of only 11.20 meters. Contrary to some “directed” statements: both the “Rafale M” and the F-18 E/F “Super Hornet” must be positioned on it at a “certain angle”. Folded wings are not enough for the F-18 E/F “Super Hornet”.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

chetak wrote:Its not likely to happen and the IN will continue to use them

the IN version is marinized and has a different engine so even if carrier use is not envisaged, the aircraft will still be able to add value in other ways.

Could be based in the andamans.

Armament may possible but only where there is some compatibility.
Saar, both variants use the same engine. See this post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4360#p2571779

In fact, the M88 turbofans found aboard the Rafale M are washed with fresh water when required. See this post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&start=2120#p2557325

And armament is identical. There is nothing that the Rafale M carries, which cannot be carried by the Rafale C/B variants of the air force.
chetak wrote:Rafale M is marinized. The material, treatment and processing of many of the components is extremely costly and as such these will not be used in the IAF versions. Fatigue tests, shock and vibration requirements will be to a different standard and there is widespread use of specialized coatings to deal with different aspects of the marine environment.

I do not as yet have any tech details of the rafale series so one cannot go beyond the obvious generalities at this point.
The Navy's MiG-29K - which is different compared to the IAF's MiG-29UPG - was deployed in Ladakh by the Navy.

Indian Navy’s MiG-29K fighter jets to be deployed in Northern Ladakh sector
https://theprint.in/defence/indian-navy ... or/465603/
21 July 2020

A different environment when compared operating over the sea. I understand that the air force variants cannot operate in a marine environment (aboard an aircraft carrier), but the reverse is possible as illustrated above.
chetak wrote:This, by itself will call for a different and detailed test and qualification schedule that will be mandatory for the certification.

Of course, where specifically agreed upon with certifying agencies, some other non critical tests are bound show commonality and will undergo a common test procedure

Also saar, be aware that it is not just a 500 kg weight penalty but a 500 kg additional weight hitting the deck at a very much higher g force (as compared to the non carrier version) and that will have a design penalty right across the design spectrum, components, LRUs, connectors and maybe involve a different/modified manufacturing process that will also be factored in and this may end up having an effect on the maintenance schedules as well.
When the balloon goes up and if the Vikrant happens to be unavailable for any reason (i.e. a lengthy refit), the Rafale M fleet will be redeployed if required. Just like how the MiG-29K did during the recent Indo-China border skirmish. All the above issues you have raised above are valid, but were addressed by the naval personnel during the redeployment.

In the event that the Rafale M "could" get transferred to the IAF, these issues will be factored in by the IAF before acceptance. The commonality between the navalized Rafale and the air force Rafale is very high. That is how Dassault designed the aircraft.

One of the key roles the Rafale will undergo in the Indian Air Force, is to serve as part of India's nuclear triad. And Rafale Ms have operated from the Charles De Gaulle with the ASMP-A* which is France's air launched, nuclear-tipped, supersonic missile. See this post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&start=2120#p2557325
*India is not getting the ASMP-A and will have her own missile.

And with jointness being the buzzword in the MoD and in the services, see this post as well ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7308&start=2280#p2561073

Expect greater coordination over training and joint exercises - between the air force and navy - in simulators and with twin-seater Rafale Bs, assuming Dassault is awarded the contract for the 26 MRCBF.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:Saar, both variants use the same engine. See this post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4360#p2571779
sirji,

This is all with reference to the MiG-29K only.

there is no way that the IN will transfer useable assets if the aircraft is still left with some useful life.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by hnair »

Rakesh, from the looks Vikrant3 onwards will have a wider lift. Otherwise we have to do the Bajaj scooter kickstart move - tilt it to one side and bring ‘em up. Even a mid life refit might not help, since the lifts + blast proof shutters needs major rework in addition to structural spars and (maybe) keel lengthening.

All because back in 2008 or so, someone Docu-signed “aviation complex” without translation when it came by email from Roossie

Hopefully the ammo elevators are not made for bringing up five vodka bottles and a bowl of borscht at a time
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by ramana »

Rakesh, MiG-29 is a pig with a coat of anti-corrosion paint. By end of its life, it will just fall apart due to marine corrosion. So there won't be any useful airframe life.

As for RafaleM, IN will keep them as they can be deployed on island bases like Jaguar IM.

Once TEDBF is complete IAF will get ORCA.

BTW note how 27 RafaleM were ordered. They will be the nucleus of three squadrons. They won't be put in one squadron.
It will be three with 9 aircraft each and rotated.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

chetak wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Saar, both variants use the same engine. See this post ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7266&start=4360#p2571779
sirji,

This is all with reference to the MiG-29K only.

there is no way that the IN will transfer useable assets if the aircraft is still left with some useful life.
as is being seen with the CDS imbroglio, inter service issues are murky and 1+1 never equals 2.

Unfortunate though it may be, its the reality on the ground, one that has been encouraged over the years by congi politicos and soldout babooze acting on behalf of offshore interests very keen no ensure that no optimization of forces takes place, thus delaying and ultimately hoping to prevent the maximization of military efficiencies and the consequent multiplication of force levels that will result from the focussed intensification of asset utilization and deployment that can be brought to bear at any given time and at any given location.

Otherwise why would the frigging pakis have such a vocal opinion of aspects of cold start and the cheeni become perturbed on theaterisation
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by BenG »

SidSoma wrote:
Rakesh wrote: HTT-40 BTA ---> HJT-36 IJT ---> Hawk Mk132 AJT ---> Simulator Training (cockpit familiarization + aircraft carrier simulation) and Rafale B (real world aircraft) = graduation into a fully qualified Rafale Marine pilot*
And somewhere in there ... between the dashes and the arrows....lies the case for Naval Tejas. I don't think one could ask for a better naval trainer.4

Can we @ BRF recruit Mao Sir to push the case for this??
I believe there is a case for developing TEDBF exclusively as a two seater aircraft. In a matter of time, there will not be enough two-seaters in Indian navy after Mig-29 KUB crashes and low availability becomes worse in the years ahead. An exclusive 2-seater design makes sure the aircraft is optimized for the role. The second operator can be a far more effective drone operator than a single pilot. We could have a Electronic warfare unit like the Growler as well.

AMCA is a single-seater and so is the mk2. For conversion training to combat aircraft, there is even a case for IAF to buy TEDBF. However I doubt IAF will look at a Navy designed product favorably given that it is their turf.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

chetak wrote:This is all with reference to the MiG-29K only.

there is no way that the IN will transfer useable assets if the aircraft is still left with some useful life.
Chetak, pointless to beat a dead horse. Lets agree to disagree. Thanks.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

ramana wrote:Rakesh, MiG-29 is a pig with a coat of anti-corrosion paint. By end of its life, it will just fall apart due to marine corrosion. So there won't be any useful airframe life.
No disagreement there Ramana-ji. I was just highlighting the fact that the Navy's MiG-29Ks were deployed to Ladakh during the stand off. There were even photos of MiG-29Ks parked in a hangar at an IAF airbase in the region. The same situation could apply to the Rafale M in the future.
ramana wrote:As for RafaleM, IN will keep them as they can be deployed on island bases like Jaguar IM.
Absolutely. The Navy's Rafale M can operate from shore bases like Dabolim or even from Jamnagar, where the Jaguar IM is based.
ramana wrote:Once TEDBF is complete IAF will get ORCA.

BTW note how 27 RafaleM were ordered. They will be the nucleus of three squadrons. They won't be put in one squadron.
It will be three with 9 aircraft each and rotated.
Only 18 out of the 26 Rafale Ms being acquired are carrier compatible. The remaining 8 airframes are all twin seaters and are not carrier compatible. There are rumours of Dassault doing a customized twin seater Rafale M, but nothing has been confirmed. So those 18 airframes will all come under one squadron - either No 300 or No 303 - and will serve onboard INS Vikrant.

Now if they switch the order book around and acquire all 26 single seater Rafale Ms, then perhaps yes.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by Rakesh »

hnair wrote:Rakesh, from the looks Vikrant3 onwards will have a wider lift. Otherwise we have to do the Bajaj scooter kickstart move - tilt it to one side and bring ‘em up. Even a mid life refit might not help, since the lifts + blast proof shutters needs major rework in addition to structural spars and (maybe) keel lengthening.

All because back in 2008 or so, someone Docu-signed “aviation complex” without translation when it came by email from Roossie

Hopefully the ammo elevators are not made for bringing up five vodka bottles and a bowl of borscht at a time
I agree. With IAC-2 in the works (as announced by Raksha Mantri and whatever he meant by that term!), fully expect wider lifts on the follow on aircraft carrier.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Post by chetak »

Rakesh wrote:
chetak wrote:This is all with reference to the MiG-29K only.

there is no way that the IN will transfer useable assets if the aircraft is still left with some useful life.
Chetak, pointless to beat a dead horse. Lets agree to disagree. Thanks.
let's wait until such a discussion actually starts in some cobweb adorned power corridor or the other and sooner or later, this thought is bound to enter some head.
Last edited by chetak on 14 Dec 2022 00:00, edited 1 time in total.
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