Indian Naval Aviation

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63610
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 02 Feb 2018 21:08

well the russians themselves have been unable to fix the Mig29K for carrier ops so far. their kuznetsov trip to syria was not successful.
they are putting all money into rebuilding the submarine fleet, not even the Leader class new DDGs are funded, it will be low priority for them given they are not into expeditionary sea based attacks.

Akshay Kapoor
Forum Moderator
Posts: 1627
Joined: 03 May 2011 11:15

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Akshay Kapoor » 02 Feb 2018 21:17

Cybaru wrote:Is it not possible to accommodate 3 dhruvs instead of the 2 large choppers at the moment on the ships? Till then maybe they add more resources to get same level of service? This might be a stupid question, but just asking.


Guys this makes little sense (using Dhruv for ASW roles, 3 dhruvs instead of 2 Sea Kings). You are serious naval watchers. Surely you thought about how much minimum payload is needed (a dunking sonar and sonobuoys and torpedo ) and how much minimum time to target and time on station is needed for ASW ops. I want to see some numbers on these parameters - and well thought of. Think of yourselves in this tactical role - - hunting subs.

Sorry I am asking you think seriously on a Friday evening :-)

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby NRao » 08 Feb 2018 19:15

Boeing in talks with Indian Navy to sell F/A-18 fighter jets

Feb 5, 2018.

Boeing Co. is in talks with the Indian Navy to sell its F/A-18 Hornet fighter jets in a bid to gain a bigger share of the defence market in the South Asian country, the world’s biggest arms importer.

A lot of technical evaluation has yet to take place, Gene Cunningham, Boeing’s vice president for defence, space and security, told reporters at the Singapore Airshow. The company is also seeing opportunities for its KC-46 multirole tanker in India and other countries, Cunningham said.

India’s navy last year invited proposals for 57 jets for its aircraft carriers, while its air force is seeking at least 100 planes.

........................

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 10 Feb 2018 01:24

X-Post from SEF Thread.... :lol:

Indian Navy, Air Force fighter jet contests to heat up in 2019: Executives
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 854470.cms

Boeing Co and Saab AB, which are among those vying for a contract to supply 57 fighter jets for the Indian Navy, expect it may take until 2019 for the tender process to enter the next phase, according to company executives. The naval contract, as well as a less-advanced plan to buy 100 fighter jets for the Indian Air Force, represent multi-billion dollar opportunities for manufacturers and for Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's "Make in India" drive to build a domestic production base. But with the country due to hold a general election by next May, the expectation is both processes could take time. Boeing is proposing its F/A-18 Super Hornet and Saab has touted its Gripen M concept in
responses to a request for information (RFI) on the naval contract but they are waiting for a more formal request for proposal (RFP) to be issued.

Boeing Vice President Global Sales Defence, Space & Security Gene Cunningham said the Indian Navy and Ministry of Defence were evaluating the answers to the RFI to see if there were any changes to requirements or expectations before releasing the RFP. "We see that evolving over the next year or so, then driving to a competition," he told Reuters at the Singapore Airshow. An Indian Navy spokesman said work was in progress and he expected an RFP would be issued in the months ahead detailing specific requirements. Dassault Aviation SA has expressed interest in the navy tender with its twin-engine Rafale M fighter and Russian Aircraft Corporation has reportedly proposed the Indian Navy buy more MiG-29Ks. The firms did not respond immediately to a request for comment.

AIR FORCE FIGHTERS

The separate air force contract, expected to be for 100 single-engine fighters, has attracted Saab's Gripen E and Lockheed Martin Corp
with its F-16, but the contest has yet to reach the RFI stage. "Hopefully we get an RFI this year," Saab Head of Asia Pacific Dean Rosenfield said. "More than likely, 2019. But it really is dependent on the customer and what they do with the election there as well." Saab has partnered with Adani to build Gripens in India if it wins either or both of the fighter jet contests, while Lockheed has selected Tata Advanced Systems as its local production partner for the F-16. Lockheed Martin International Executive Vice President Rick Edwards said his company was hopeful an RFI on the air force contract would be released "soon" but it remained up to the government. An Indian Air Force spokesman declined to comment on when the RFI would be issued.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16052
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby NRao » 10 Feb 2018 05:43

Feb 9, 2018 :: Indian Navy to purchase more P-8i Advanced Submarine Hunter aircraft from the US

In a big move, the Indian Navy will purchase more P-8i Advanced Submarine Hunter aircraft from the US by 2020. The information was revealed by Steve Tripp, Senior Manager, P-8 A international Global Marketing and sales of the Boeing company during the Singapore Air Show.

..

By 2020, the US will deliver four more P-8i to the Indian Navy which will increase the fleet to 12 aircraft.

..

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19640
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2018 05:46

It's not that simple.The success of Kalibir launched from small corvettes has resulted in major brainstorming in the RuN and a change in tack to their naval shipbuildingg
The need for huge behemoths of WW2 and the Cold War no longer are necessary along with their great cost when very long range PGMs like Kalibir can do the job of a carrier based strike aircraft.Adm.K is right about the sub programme, more stealthy, and sev.CW era N-subs are being divested of huge missiles and replaced by Kalibir.Which is why building a v.expensive Lider class has been found overkill costwise when smaller vessels can do the biz.

They do plan larger carriers for the future, but prudently shelved/postponed these .The success of their land-based long range bombers , veteran SsBNsalso armed with LR stand- off cruise missiles with v.accurate CEPs gives them the LR strike capability in any ocean assisted by their SSGNs.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6792
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 10 Feb 2018 06:08

Philip wrote:The need for huge behemoths of WW2 and the Cold War no longer are necessary along with their great cost when very long range PGMs like Kalibir can do the job of a carrier based strike aircraft.


Think about the part in bold long and hard. Do you seriously believe this to be true?

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19640
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 10 Feb 2018 09:30

For our needs not that of the US which wants to indulge in expeditionary warfare anywhere on the globe.We will have 2 med CVs by 2020 and with our 3rd unsinkable INS India and 4th INS Andamans and Nicobar we are quite comfortable.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3247
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Feb 2018 09:35

A third carrier is not a bad idea but I think another vikrant class should be good enough. Load it up with jsf and osprey based aew.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 01 Aug 2018 02:52

A must read article on the HAL Dhruv in service with the Indian Naval Air Arm. Also has videos of the HAL Dhruv in action!

Advanced Light Helicopter gives teeth to Navy's airborne ops
https://english.manoramaonline.com/news ... e-ops.html

Khalsa
BRFite
Posts: 1350
Joined: 12 Nov 2000 12:31
Location: NZL

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Khalsa » 01 Aug 2018 15:19

NRao wrote:Feb 9, 2018 :: Indian Navy to purchase more P-8i Advanced Submarine Hunter aircraft from the US

In a big move, the Indian Navy will purchase more P-8i Advanced Submarine Hunter aircraft from the US by 2020. The information was revealed by Steve Tripp, Senior Manager, P-8 A international Global Marketing and sales of the Boeing company during the Singapore Air Show.

..

By 2020, the US will deliver four more P-8i to the Indian Navy which will increase the fleet to 12 aircraft.

..



Time to think Big and further out.
Take the strength to 16.

Bye bye Il-38s anyway in another 8 years or so.
Those things will be coming to end of life , if not we should flog them mercilessly.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50757
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby ramana » 14 Nov 2018 07:06

JayS, TSarkar
1) How was the number 57 arrived At? How many Carriers is that?
2) Is EMALS necessary ? What alternates?
Thanks, Ramana
P.S. any one jump in.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 14 Nov 2018 07:25

57 aircraft should be around three squadrons with reserves. The 45 MiG-29Ks presently in service are with two squadrons - No 300 White Tigers and No 303 Black Panthers.

57 in relation to the number of Indian carriers is a bit tricky to answer. The only two real contenders for the 57 contest are the F-18 Super Hornet and the Rafale M. Only Boeing has made the claim that the F-18 can operate from a ski jump on the Vikramaditya and the new Vikrant with a significant payload. Also Boeing claims that the F-18 can manage within the lifts of both vessels. The Rafale M has yet to prove itself on either account.

EMALS is what the Navy would need, if they want either aircraft to take off with a sizeable payload. Sizeable is not equal to significant. I know that might sound oxymoronic, but there is a difference. What EMALS does is fewer aircraft need to be launched versus off a ski jump type vessel, as the aircraft can be launched with a much bigger payload. EMALS (and its predecessor - the steam catapult) literally catapults the aircraft into the air. Fewer aircraft results in less wear & tear over the entire fleet. I am sure I will get roasted over the coals for the statement. However can the Navy adopt a similar configuration like the Queen Elizabeth Class and still have effective carrier ops? That is something only the Navy can answer, despite many opinions being tossed around on BRF and elsewhere.

The alternate to EMALS is the tried and proven steam catapult, which also comes only from America. China is the only other nation creating an EMALS system. The follow on to the French Charles De Gaulle carrier is designed to have EMALS and the French Govt is in discussions with the US Govt and the American company - General Atomics, I believe - for the EMALS. The system requires a ridiculous amount of power, which a nuclear reactor can comfortably provide. However General Atomics has said EMALS can work on a conventionally powered carrier as well.

For the Indian Navy context - a vessel the size and capability of the Queen Elizabeth Class - is more than sufficient. Ski jump, 65,000 tons. But that is my opinion, which has zero bearing on Indian naval planners :)

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6792
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 14 Nov 2018 07:53

Trying to get either the F/A-18E or the Rafale to work from the Vik will be quite expensive from both the envelope expansion, modification and carrier integration. The latter is a time and capital consuming process because not only do you have to be able to take off and land on a carrier you have to integrate with its systems, radars, and you have to be able to operate it as part of an air-wing with a reasonably high ops tempo during surge demand. I just don't see it happening but that's just me. The MiG-29Ks will serve their role there.

Going forward, any new carrier can be designed from the ground up to support multiple types but that is obviously a major undertaking. Carrier aviation is headed towards EMALS with the US already committed to it and well on its way of certifying all carrier aircraft to use on the Ford, France negotiating buying the capability, and China trying to race to develop the capability. That is obviously something that works for these user requirements and it may or may not apply to all use cases but it is a pretty strong indication that this is where the leaders in carrier aviation see technology leading them for the projects that will serve in the next 5-8 decades. As a system, General Atomics has received approval to export EMALS to India and France iirc and the conventional EMALS study was funded by the Royal navy and carried out so that is something that can also be looked at to see what sort of performance and capability compromises, if any, came with that use case.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 14 Nov 2018 07:57

In addition to what brar (forum software auto corrects your name to brad...so weird!) said above, if EMALS does come for the Indian Navy....expect the F-18 Super Hornet to come right along with it. The US Govt will not allow EMALS and then have another aircraft operate from it. The French Navy is different, as there is already is something called the Rafale M. The Indian Navy has no equivalent. But that having being said, for the Indian Navy...the F-18 is a fine aircraft. That APG-79 AESA radar is awesome!

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6792
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 14 Nov 2018 08:01

I don't think the F/A-18E/F will be in production to support a carrier aircraft requirement in the 2030s and I don't think the F/A-18 would be picked over the Rafale for IAF's use given the investment in the Rafale already made. EMALS or Steam, a new carrier program will take at least 10+ years from green light before they can begin launching even early operational flights so I don't think the SHornet would be around then, or if around, make much sense. A Naval AMCA can probably be worked upon in parallel to a potential new carrier, and the IN can look at future variants of the F-35, the Next generation french naval fighter, or the Next Generation US Navy fighter as potential alternatives along with UCAV/UAVs and ISR and AEW aircraft like the E-2D and its successor.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 14 Nov 2018 08:06

It is better for the Indian Navy to adopt a stretched Vikrant (call her the Viraat). Conventionally powered, 65,000 tons, ski jump and wider lifts (than on the Vikrant) to accommodate F-18, Rafale M, F-35B/C or whatever else is out there. The Vikrant's biggest drawback is the lack of wider lifts. Brand new vessel and has lifts that can only accommodate the MiG-29K or the Naval Tejas. Quite frustrating.

If they lay down the keel of a stretched Vikrant in 2019, she will be ready for carrier ops by 2030. A stretched Vikrant (conventionally powered) will be an easier sell in the MoD (who shot down the proposal for a nuclear powered vessel in 2017). Now if the country's aspirations require a nuclear powered aircraft carrier, then R&D has to be invested into a nuclear reactor. Neither BARC or the Indian Navy wants to fund that as of now. So till both get their act together, it is best to go for the conventional route for now.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 14 Nov 2018 08:08

brar_w wrote:I don't think the F/A-18E/F will be in production to support a carrier aircraft requirement in the 2030s and I don't think the F/A-18 would be picked over the Rafale for IAF's use given the investment in the Rafale already made. EMALS or Steam, a new carrier program will take at least 10+ years from green light before they can begin launching even early operational flights so I don't think the SHornet would be around then, or if around, make much sense. A Naval AMCA can probably be worked upon in parallel to a potential new carrier, and the IN can look at future variants of the F-35, the Next generation french naval fighter, or the Next Generation US Navy fighter as potential alternatives along with UCAV/UAVs and ISR and AEW aircraft like the E-2D and its successor.

Agree, but I cannot see how the Rafale M is expecting to operate from either the Vikramaditya or the Vikrant. The last I read, is that Dassault was proposing detachable wings. In an war tempo setting, how viable is that really?

The other option is the F-35, as you have mentioned.

Naval AMCA is also a viable option, as you have mentioned. But that is quite a ways off.

My hope lies in a Mk2 variant of the Naval Tejas. That is a low hanging fruit compared to the Naval AMCA. And can operate from the Vikramaditya, Vikrant and the new carrier - Vishaal, Viraat or whatever she will be called.

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6792
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 14 Nov 2018 08:28

It takes a while to put a new large carrier design into "actual service". The first operational patrol with a carrier air wing on the QE2 for example would be around 9 years after it was launched (2014) which itself happened around 5-6 years after it was ordered. The first Ford (CVN-78) only beats that by around 10 or so months so that seems to be a good benchmark for modern carriers.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17710
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 14 Nov 2018 09:08

X quoted from the rafale thread
Rakesh wrote:
ramana wrote:Rakesh
What about
57 +114 F18s?
Or 57 Rafales vs 57 F 18s?
Where would EMALS fit?

Is this question for this thread or for the Indian Naval Aviation thread?


If the EMALS comes in

What happens to the 29Ks??

and the thus far mytical Naval LCA??

I seriously doubt if either of them is suited for EMALS without major modifications.

Won't there will be interoperability issues with EMALS/non EMALS platforms??

Are we being gently herded/stampeded towards a "all eggs in one basket" type of scenario with major weapons systems from IA/IN/IAF coming from a notoriously unreliable source, one whose policies are prone to change from administration to administration??

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6792
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 14 Nov 2018 10:05

That IF is obviously a big IF, but even under that hypothetical scenario the current MiG-29Ks would continue to serve their roles on the two carriers. It is not like the IN has 100+ MiG-29's. A larger and perhaps more diverse air-wing would need to be procured to support additional carrier or carriers. That will likely need to be made in the mid 2020s so that integration can begin in the early 2030s.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2830
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 14 Nov 2018 10:13

chetak wrote:If the EMALS comes in

What happens to the 29Ks??

and the thus far mytical Naval LCA??

I seriously doubt if either of them is suited for EMALS without major modifications.

Won't there will be interoperability issues with EMALS/non EMALS platforms??

Are we being gently herded/stampeded towards a "all eggs in one basket" type of scenario with major weapons systems from IA/IN/IAF coming from a notoriously unreliable source, one whose policies are prone to change from administration to administration??


1. With EMALS or any catapult, the MiG-29K will no longer be an option. There is no development for CAT capable Fulcrum on the horizon that I can see,

2. The NLCA is not mythical by any stretch of the imagination,

3. Both 29K and NLCA will serve on our two STOBAR carriers while the cat-capable system (F-18, F-35C or Rafale M) will be on the CATOBAR.

There will be no interoperability once we get the CATOBAR. We might develop a cat-capable NLCA variant in the future like what the chinis are doing with their J-15. Very unlikely Russia will bother developing a catapult aircraft just for India.

The CATOBAR carrier will be a massive change in capability with AEW and ASW fixed wings. Interoperability in that case will no longer be a concern IMHO.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22037
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 14 Nov 2018 10:26

EMALS is like the work in progress , one will have to live long enought like 20-25 years to see that happen and if it does happen , Navy has many oher dire priorities to start with somethin as basic as minesweeper has been in limbo since past 8 years and we are left with very few I am old just 2 operational minesweeper.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 17710
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chetak » 14 Nov 2018 10:31

Let us hope that the EMALS comes as somebody's dowry. :)

That would imply the need of a docile ghar jamai, no??

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22037
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 14 Nov 2018 10:38

chetak wrote:Let us hope that the EMALS comes as somebody's dowry. :)

That would imply the need of a docile ghar jamai, no??


These things like EMALS may be maintenance heavy and unproven , not until USN runs for many years and they are throw in umteen billion to solve a problem and maintain it , IN will go bankrupt with such white elephant.

Most of these admirals on twitter seem to smoke some kind of weed that makes them potent , they pipe dream about all fancy technology and then crib about not having some basic stuff , While MOD gets to get the last word and laugh on this.

IN navy needs to get a 30 % of budget from MOD to get any where closer to their dreams. The IN drastically managed to expand in the 80's because they got ever thing free or on barter with SU , Now they have to pay forex for every thing and begin to feel the pinch

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2254
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby abhik » 16 Nov 2018 19:32

57 Rafale will cost something like 2-3x of what we have spent on development of LCA and Kaveri combined - it's ridiculous.

EMALS is not some unobtonium tech - instead of window shopping for foreign maal, spend 100m to L&T etc for a PoC and see how far it goes.

5-10 years ago we were knocking on the doors of Slovakia, Singapore, Timbuktu for importing artillery. With a little faith and investment we now have one of the most powerful guns in the world.

JTull
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2346
Joined: 18 Jul 2001 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JTull » 16 Nov 2018 20:42

Why don't they bloody start working on it themselves?

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22037
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 16 Nov 2018 20:52

IN won’t accept a small single engine fighter on its deck , it can at best get 2 aircraft carrier and 3 at best by end of next decade , all aircraft occupy the same premium space , a twin engine fighter can better weapon load , range and bring back capability instead of dumping at sea , twin engine offers more thrust and 3x survivibility over single engine fighter

Tejas even in mk2 avatar won’t meet these capabilities so navy will fund it but we won’t see it in actual service may be half dozen but not more

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 50757
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby ramana » 16 Nov 2018 21:11


Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22037
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 17 Nov 2018 16:29

If the IN had any interest in Naval Tejas it would have bought the existing varient of N Tejas Mk1 and would have inducted in small numbers to carry out day to day flying from AC , learn about its logistics , training , maintenance etc check out its strength and short coming and invent tactics , pilot training based on it , Plus a Sea based tejas would have its own challanges when operating for months and years in such environment.

The Chief is pointing to some future where another varaint may be looked into , Mk2 wont make Tejas into a bigger and better fighter with longer legs , a little more thrust and little more range wont change it compared to what it is today.

If IN gets its 57 Fighter that it is desiring then it will simply drop the ball on Naval Tejas or any future variant of it , The only way to force the IN to induct tejas is to cancel the 57 AC RFI and forces it to go for Tejas.

But I dont disagree with the Limitation part of Tejas , If all you can operate is 2 AC and may be 3 by end of next decade and assuming just 2 remain operational and more than 50 % of its Airfleet will be with ASW choppers and Casevac and SAR roles by Choppers ( in reality it makes for 60 % of air fleet ) and 50 % is for fighters then you want a bigger fighter with larger persistance , twin engine for added safety and larger payload with higher bring back capability. Tejas wont have any of those not now or in future. Its a design limitation that cannot be changed with any cosmetic changes and any major change would be going back to drawing board and designing a new fighter

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1459
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Nov 2018 21:35

Has the NAMCA bus passed completely? If I am not mistaken we Are doing the same mistake of designing planes for IAF first and then IN

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2830
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 27 Nov 2018 13:44

https://www.financialexpress.com/defence/indian-navy-chief-to-seek-urgent-help-from-russia-for-mig-29ks-the-only-fighter-jets-on-ins-vikramaditya/1394037/lite/

Indian Navy chief to seek urgent help from Russia for MiG-29Ks, the only fighter jets on INS Vikramaditya
Increasing the serviceability of the 45 MiG-29K aircraft as well as other pending projects of the Indian Navy are topping the agenda of the Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sunil Lanba four day visit to Russia starting today.

By: Huma Siddiqui November 26, 2018 1:23 PM
...
the Indian Navy is urgently trying to acquire 57 multi-role fighters for its aircraft carrier to replace the existing fleet for the MiG-29K. “Since the procurement process is long, we need to ensure that the existing fleet of MiG-29K is in operational readiness,” a naval officer explained.


Navy admitting that the 57-plane RFI is to replace that 29K?

Remember, the 57 plane saga started with the Navy saying the NLCA was not up to par. The plane was and is still in just testing!!!

So many of us here thought even then that it was the 29K that’s the issue. You don’t tender for new carrier aircraft when the 29K was brand new unless something was wrong!

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22037
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 27 Nov 2018 14:37

That 57 Aircraft thing is a non-starter unless the navy can wait for like 1 and half decade , the cost involved in such pruchase will be too high for navy to afford it even cheaper program like mine sweeper have been in cold water for close to decade.

Better option for navy is to purchase 18-20 odd Rafale for existing carrier in the next 5-7 years and make it operational. even that would be a tall ask knowing the cost and also the fact that we have ski jump carrier.

Vips
BRFite
Posts: 1229
Joined: 14 Apr 2017 18:23

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vips » 27 Nov 2018 18:55

The MIG29 k in the Navy has many issues. Navy wanting to junk them is not a surprise.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22037
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 27 Nov 2018 21:25

IN managed with a far less capable SHAR that had greater issue with uptimes and had to struggle to keep it up in air after POK sanction and finally gave it up even then it managed to pull a good 30 years in service , The Navy will be much better with 29K even with all its claimed flaws.

The admirals can meanwhile smoke their pipe to get 57 AC while they struggle to get minesweeper and ASW chopper badly needed 5 years back

John
BRFite
Posts: 1854
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby John » 27 Nov 2018 23:17

Austin wrote:That 57 Aircraft thing is a non-starter unless the navy can wait for like 1 and half decade , the cost involved in such pruchase will be too high for navy to afford it even cheaper program like mine sweeper have been in cold water for close to decade.

Better option for navy is to purchase 18-20 odd Rafale for existing carrier in the next 5-7 years and make it operational. even that would be a tall ask knowing the cost and also the fact that we have ski jump carrier.

Rafale has not been certified for operation from skijump and navy will have to pay for it from its pocket for that development. All said and done just 20 Rafale will run into 7 billion+ range and won't see daylight till 2030 due to testing and certification required.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3977
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Kartik » 28 Nov 2018 00:24

Austin wrote:IN managed with a far less capable SHAR that had greater issue with uptimes and had to struggle to keep it up in air after POK sanction and finally gave it up even then it managed to pull a good 30 years in service , The Navy will be much better with 29K even with all its claimed flaws.

The admirals can meanwhile smoke their pipe to get 57 AC while they struggle to get minesweeper and ASW chopper badly needed 5 years back


So the N-LCA Mk1 itself has superior capabilities in almost all respects to what the SHar had, except for VTOL capability. Does that mean that the N-LCA Mk1 meets the IN's needs now? No, it doesn't. In the same way, the MiG-29K clearly has issues that are not being fully divulged publicly, else there would be no urgent need to replace jets that entered service less than a decade ago.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 28 Nov 2018 01:08

John wrote:
Austin wrote:That 57 Aircraft thing is a non-starter unless the navy can wait for like 1 and half decade , the cost involved in such pruchase will be too high for navy to afford it even cheaper program like mine sweeper have been in cold water for close to decade.

Better option for navy is to purchase 18-20 odd Rafale for existing carrier in the next 5-7 years and make it operational. even that would be a tall ask knowing the cost and also the fact that we have ski jump carrier.

Rafale has not been certified for operation from skijump and navy will have to pay for it from its pocket for that development. All said and done just 20 Rafale will run into 7 billion+ range and won't see daylight till 2030 due to testing and certification required.

Rafale M cannot operate from Vikramaditya or the Vikrant. The aircraft does not fit in the lifts of either vessel. The IN will have to cut open the deck and install newer lifts. Not going to happen.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1576
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nam » 28 Nov 2018 01:15

What about F35? We are better off getting F35 if it is going to cost same as Rafale.. and it will surely set up fire in the neighborhood.

F35 for the time being, augmented by AMCA-N.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5973
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 28 Nov 2018 01:39

IIRC, the wings of the F-35B can barely fit and neither can the F-35C with the wings folded. The lifts were measured for width and if memory serves me correct...it is only around 10.5 to 11 meters (in width) maximum. Those lifts on the Vikrant (and Vikramaditya) are designed only for N-LCA and MiG-29K. But most importantly, Unkil must be willing to sell :)

Wingspan Dimensions: Specs below are courtesy of wiki-chacha....

* MiG-29K ---> 11.99 m (39 ft 5 in)* Total wingspan, but number reduced when wings are folded.

* N-LCA ---> 8.20 m (26 ft 11 in)* Tejas Mk1 variant for IAF, but I doubt the N-LCA Mk1 variant will be any different.

* F-18E/F ---> 13.62 m (44 ft 8.5 in)* Total wingspan, but number reduced when wings are folded. Boeing claims that the bird can fly from both Vikrant and Vikramaditya. Something about the aircraft hanging over the side (but secured to the lift) during the lift process and with the wings folded.

* Rafale M ---> 10.80 m (35 ft 4 in)* Bare squeeze and last I read is that Dassault is proposing detachable wings.

* F-35B ---> 10.7 m (35 ft)* Bare squeeze and not on offer.

* F-35C ---> 13.1 m (43 ft)* Total wingspan, but number reduced when wings are folded. Not on offer.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Parikshit, ravikr and 40 guests