Indian Naval Aviation

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63631
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 05 Dec 2018 08:37

The mig29k will get stationed as ground based units and on vikrant vikky whichever is deployed at a given time

IN will go for JSf after a few years of to and fro
The f18 has reached its limit and will get replaced by jsf unit by unit which in usn huge holdings case is a long time but others will cut over much faster

Why would we want rafale f18 for a carrier that will enter service in 2035 :mrgreen:

No jsf vstol but the more capable ctol version

Also if china imports pakfa we might see jsf as high end to supplement the amca

brar_w
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6803
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 05 Dec 2018 08:44

The F-35C is not replacing the Super Hornet in the US Navy. It is replacing the Classic Hornet. The Super Hornet and the Growler will be replaced by a Next Gen. Fighter in the 2030s. The USN is still buying the Super Hornet and will be taking deliveries of the Block III till at least the early-mid 2020s so those will be in service into the 2040s. Growler production re-start is also quite likely so the line could go on for longer. Once the carrier design is mature, the IN can evaluate various aircraft but it makes a lot of sense to standardize on one foreign type based on whichever aircraft the IN chooses per its upcoming RFP (if it happens at all). I think it will most probably be the Rafale with a combined IAF-IN order allowing economies of scale to perhaps bring an assembly line to India.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22038
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 05 Dec 2018 11:22

All Issues Pertaining to Serviceability of MiG-29K Sorted Out - Indian Navy

MiG-29K, being the choice of aircraft for both the aircraft carriers, viz. INS Vikramaditya and an under-construction domestically-produced aircraft carrier, as well as two naval air stations on the East and West coast, is the mainstay of the Indian Navy’s air defence fleet.

Indian Navy Chief Admiral Sunil Lanba on Monday announced that the issues related to maintenance and availability of spare parts for the MiG-29K fleet have been sorted out. Admiral Lanba also stated that the defence ministry is working on how to resolve payment issues due to the US sanctions.

The announcement holds significance as these issues were believed to have been posing major impediments to improving the serviceability of the aircraft.

"There is no issue on supplies of spare parts from Russia at the moment… The MiG-29K fleet has been performing well now," Admiral Sunil Lanba said on Monday while addressing the press on the eve of Navy Day.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2841
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 05 Dec 2018 15:33

^^^ In the end, we have to make do with the 29K for the Vikky and Vikrant for all the talks about Rafales and F-18s. The 57 RFI will drag on until IAC-2 is ready. They’ll be for the CATOBAR.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5999
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 05 Dec 2018 21:22

brar_w wrote:I think it will most probably be the Rafale with a combined IAF-IN order allowing economies of scale to perhaps bring an assembly line to India.

Aap Ke Muh Mein Ghee Shakar! :)

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63631
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2018 10:57

in the runup to WW1 a advisor to czar nicholas wrote a memo that highlights the need to beef up surrounding aspects of a overall posture before entering a war. entering anything is easy, staying and winning the fight is the key.

http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/history- ... emorandum/

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9882
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Dec 2018 12:10

chola wrote:^^^ In the end, we have to make do with the 29K for the Vikky and Vikrant for all the talks about Rafales and F-18s. The 57 RFI will drag on until IAC-2 is ready. They’ll be for the CATOBAR.


I hope there are Naval LCA's also on these.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22038
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 06 Dec 2018 13:28

Look like major Naval Aviation ex in Goa , could see many Mig-29K and other types in the air.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19640
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 06 Dec 2018 22:34

Good to hear from the chief's mouth that 29K issues have been sorted out.If this continues favourably, I anticipate further upgraded 29Ks to 35 std. being added to the fleet in the future, a more cost-effectiv solution than buying another new type.

Bala Vignesh
BRFite
Posts: 1940
Joined: 30 Apr 2009 02:02
Location: Standing at the edge of the cliff
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 06 Dec 2018 22:53

It depends on how it was resolved. If it was by rectifying the design flaw then great, if it was rectified by making more spares available with no inordinate delays in its deliveries, then forget it.

Personally I’d be very happy if what you say does come through since that would mean a simplified logistic chain and more space for the NLCA/NAMCA budget but I very highly doubt it would happen considering the recent trend.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2841
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 07 Dec 2018 06:41

Aditya_V wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ In the end, we have to make do with the 29K for the Vikky and Vikrant for all the talks about Rafales and F-18s. The 57 RFI will drag on until IAC-2 is ready. They’ll be for the CATOBAR.


I hope there are Naval LCA's also on these.


Yes, without doubt that is my hope too. But as a light ac it would always be a supplement to the bigger twin engines the Navy say they wanted. (The Sea Gripen makes absolutely no sense.)

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9882
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Dec 2018 12:02

The LCA Navy can provide CAP and Air cover to the CBG with Uttam or EL 2052 radar. It probably will have a much better turnaround time and more can fit on the Aircraft carrier, while Mig 29K can be used for Strike missions.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22038
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Austin » 07 Dec 2018 13:03

If the IAF marshal says Tejas Mk2 can carry 6.5 Ton of payload and will have longer legs why cant the navy adopt Mk2 variant ... May be Naval Tejas would turn out to be heavier due to heavier landing gear and other things but still it should be able to carry 5 plus tons in Naval Mk2 variant.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2841
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 07 Dec 2018 14:33

Austin wrote:If the IAF marshal says Tejas Mk2 can carry 6.5 Ton of payload and will have longer legs why cant the navy adopt Mk2 variant ... May be Naval Tejas would turn out to be heavier due to heavier landing gear and other things but still it should be able to carry 5 plus tons in Naval Mk2 variant.


Going to 6.5 tons from 4 tons today is a 62% increase. But how?

I was completely thrown for a loop when ADA said Mk2 will be a medium weight fighter. Going from the 85kn of the F404 to the 95kn of the F414 would give a nice leap of improvement for the Tejas in the same airframe. But going to a medium fighter with a max takeoff weight of 4 more tons (30% increase) on a 11% increase in thrust would really make it a three-legged cheetah.

IMO, this can’t be handled by the F414 upgrade unless we are going twin-engine. Maybe it is just DDM reporting.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5999
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 11 Dec 2018 09:46

Some nice pics of MiG-29Ks aboard INS Vikramaditya.

https://twitter.com/Commandounknown/sta ... 0181965824 ---> Happy Indian Navy Day, INS Vikramaditya.

Image

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5999
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 11 Dec 2018 10:02

https://twitter.com/__username__007/sta ... 1060722688 ---> Indian Navy's only fighter jet, the MiG-29K. Folding wings feature makes it east to be stored and operated on aircraft carrier.

Image

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5999
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 11 Dec 2018 10:03

If this is true, then it is an amazing turn around for the MiG-29K.

https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 0159159296 ----> 70% serviceability for MIG-29K fighters achieved in 2016 coupled with the announcement of a MIG-29 squadron to serve with the Eastern Naval Command of the Indian Navy says a lot about how well the IN has adapted to this jet.

Above tweet was in response to this. From 37.63% to around 70% in one year!

https://twitter.com/China_SCS_info/stat ... 1968332800 ---> According to a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India, in 2016, serviceability of the MiG-29K was unsatisfactory (37.63%) until 2015. However, recent efforts made by the two countries have improved serviceability to around 70%.

John
BRFite
Posts: 1855
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby John » 11 Dec 2018 17:50

^ Most of issues I suspect is reliability of engines ( which I suspect was improved), training and maintenance. For example Rafale faced their share of issues operating from CDG for couple of years.

nam
BRFite
Posts: 1589
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nam » 11 Dec 2018 17:55

So the RFP was just a ploy to get the Russians fix the issues? We are not getting any F18/Rafale then.

ArjunPandit
BRFite
Posts: 1470
Joined: 29 Mar 2017 06:37

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby ArjunPandit » 11 Dec 2018 20:59

nam wrote:So the RFP was just a ploy to get the Russians fix the issues? We are not getting any F18/Rafale then.
but what about the next carrier? will we be ordering Mig29k for it too?

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6983
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Prasad » 11 Dec 2018 22:29

If its a catobar, nla should do just fine :)

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5999
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 12 Dec 2018 00:09

Rakesh wrote:If this is true, then it is an amazing turn around for the MiG-29K.

https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 0159159296 ----> 70% serviceability for MIG-29K fighters achieved in 2016 coupled with the announcement of a MIG-29 squadron to serve with the Eastern Naval Command of the Indian Navy says a lot about how well the IN has adapted to this jet.

Above tweet was in response to this. From 37.63% to around 70% in one year!

https://twitter.com/China_SCS_info/stat ... 1968332800 ---> According to a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General of India, in 2016, serviceability of the MiG-29K was unsatisfactory (37.63%) until 2015. However, recent efforts made by the two countries have improved serviceability to around 70%.


Karan Saar's words turned out to be prophetic! Good job Boss!

Karan M wrote:Let me say this. There may nothing fundamentally wrong with the MiG-29K apart from the fact it has not been tested and debugged before the sale to India. Its simply not ruggedized enough, its structure, its avionics, its engines - all need extensive testing and debugging for high-G, high-impact carrier ops. And the Russkies didnt have the money, so they fibbed and sold us a half tested product. Given enough TLC, the MiG-29K could be very potent and it may still deliver in IAF service.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5999
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 12 Dec 2018 00:11

ArjunPandit wrote:
nam wrote:So the RFP was just a ploy to get the Russians fix the issues? We are not getting any F18/Rafale then.
but what about the next carrier? will we be ordering Mig29k for it too?

Actually I would like to see the CAG report for the MiG-29K for 2017 and (fairly soon) 2018 as well. It will be good to get a year-over-year comparison to see if the serviceability needle is moving in a positive direction.

What is already really optimistic is Admiral Lanba's statement (on Navy Day - 04 Dec 2018) that all serviceability issues for the MiG-29K have been resolved.

ManuJ
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 271
Joined: 20 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby ManuJ » 12 Dec 2018 00:42

The new Mig29 squadron for ENC is being created with existing frames, or additional purchases?

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3985
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Kartik » 12 Dec 2018 01:04

No additional purchase. it will be one of the 2 INAS squadrons that will be relocated.

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 63631
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Singha » 12 Dec 2018 01:12

what ASM does the 29K carry at present (if so)?

its the ideal candidate for a single centerline brahmos-M & NGARM on wings when that arrives.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5999
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 12 Dec 2018 01:29

KH-35 (NATO: AS-20 Kayak). See video below (from 6:30 onwards). You can see the AS-20 on the innermost hard-point, with the fins folded.

On the BrahMos, I doubt it. With all the issues the air frame faced, putting a BrahMos in the centreline would be hard.


krishna_krishna
BRFite
Posts: 657
Joined: 23 Oct 2006 04:14

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby krishna_krishna » 12 Dec 2018 01:31

Singha wrote:what ASM does the 29K carry at present (if so)?

its the ideal candidate for a single centerline brahmos-M & NGARM on wings when that arrives.


Kh-31A

Kh-35U

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5999
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 12 Dec 2018 01:58

ManuJ wrote:The new Mig29 squadron for ENC is being created with existing frames, or additional purchases?

Kartik wrote:No additional purchase. it will be one of the 2 INAS squadrons that will be relocated.

Like Kartik said above, it will likely be No 303 Black Panthers that move to Vizag. If memory serves me right, I thought they were already there. No 300 White Tigers call Dabolim home. It was their home during the Sea Harriers and the Sea Hawk as well.

When a carrier is in port, aircraft are usually flown off the vessel and are stationed at their home base (Dabolim or Vizag). The opposite happens when the carrier leaves port. The squadron is required to maintain a constant state of readiness and also give rookie pilots the opportunities to train as well. Remember that MiG-29KUB crash in January of this year? It was a rookie pilot that veered off the runway from Dabolim. I am not sure if the Board of Inquiry ever revealed what happened.

John
BRFite
Posts: 1855
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby John » 12 Dec 2018 03:33

Karan Saar's words turned out to be prophetic! Good job Boss!


I been saying that for a while that lot of issues are not going to get ironed till it's operational and in service. Rafale-M had its share of issues operating from CDG. I highly doubt Rafale operating from ski jumpwill receive certification and be operational even in couple years ( guess who will be testing that out and fixing the issue?).

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3985
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Navy News & Discussion - 03 July 2018

Postby Kartik » 12 Dec 2018 03:58

Was this posted earlier?

Alpha Design offers to upgrade Navy's Ka-28 ASW helis partnering with Adani Defence

With the Navy embarking on an upgrade programme of a fleet of anti-submarine helicopters, Bengaluru-based defence equipment manufacturer Alpha Design Technologies Pvt Ltd has offered "its expertise" in partnership with Adani Defence.

ADTL wrote to the Navy last month proposing its involvement in the MLU (mid-life upgrade) programme of KA-28 anti-submarine helicopters.

The Defence Ministry had cleared an upgrade programme for its 10 Navy Kamov Ka-28 anti-submarine warfare helicopters to give the choppers extended service life and enhance capabilities in terms of sensors and avionics.

The contract for retrofitting of the ten Ka-28 helicopters was tied between Russia and India in 2016.

ADTL said that they have "strong partnership" with Adani Defence and Aerospace Limited (ADAS) on important programmes where ADAS is the strategic partner.

ADTL, "with full support from ADAS", pledged to offer the Navy "its expertise in the helicopter upgrade programme" and proposed its involvement in the Navy's KA-28 MLU programme.

IANS sent queries to Adani Defence about the contents of the letter, the level of ADTL participation in terms of finances and shareholding, but there was no response...

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 5999
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 12 Dec 2018 04:24

INAS 333 'Eagles' Squadron, Indian Navy celebrated 38 years on 11 Dec 2018.

https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... 9477178368 ----> 'Steely and sharp, sting we will with surprise, we are the coaxial gang of eagles'. Happy Anniversary EAGLES!

Image

sankum
BRFite
Posts: 554
Joined: 20 Dec 2004 21:45

Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby sankum » 12 Dec 2018 18:12

Both carriers when operational in 2020 will have 20 fighters each as standard complement for a total of 40 fighters active at sea. IN requires minimum 60 naval fighters from 2020 to 2030 till IAC 2 becomes operational. A minimum 20 Mig 29K order to take the total to 65 nos will be sufficient if NLCA mk2 is not ordered . Then NAMCA can takeover post 2030.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 33 guests