Indian Naval Aviation

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kit
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby kit » 18 Nov 2019 07:41

Manish_P wrote:
Philip wrote:Russian Blackjack strategic bombers just visited S.Africa.They carry an equal statement of any carrier showing the flag. ...


A very strong message no doubt but not equal to a carrier task force, Philip sir.

One- a carrier task force does not need a host country to base it. It can loiter in international waters as close as possible to the target area. Second, it is more difficult to hit than an airbase, especially by non-state actors. And third it has that deadly hidden second-strike element - the sub (typically nuclear powered).

You have seen how both the US and Soviet/Russian forces have used both elements


There is indeed a case for both. The immense indian landmass projecting itself into the Indian Ocean and the andaman and lakshadweep islands are literally unsinkable aircraft carriers from where very significant force projection can be done , Sea denial is thus india s strong ability and a powerful sub arm will keep the IOR off limits to any adversary.The navy's admission of the anti shipping ability of Brahmos equipped sukhois being able to sanitise the entire IOR and littoral regions is a case in point. The brahmos missile itself excels in the anti shipping role and a few of them can bring down any ship.
Having said that all this power does not equate to force projection the way a aircraft carrier fleet can do. It's just the mightiest force projection on earth , the weapons and capability second to none.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cain Marko » 18 Nov 2019 12:02

So when does the true embrace come - Refurbed Kitty hawk with 70 odd Shornets and complete support package- all FMS. There is India's 3 carrier force. Until the homegrown Vishaal comes along, a Kitty Hawk (rechristened "VIRAAT") will do!

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 18 Nov 2019 12:41

We have to finish up the Vikrant and then begin on the Vishal. (Or negotiate for an Amreeki mothballed super carrier if such a dream can be realistically entertained.)

The second chini carrier crossed the Taiwan Strait yesterday and received its air wing.

We have just lost the dominant position in Asian naval aviation that we had held for over half a century.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Aditya_V » 18 Nov 2019 12:46

Cain Marko wrote:So when does the true embrace come - Refurbed Kitty hawk with 70 odd Shornets and complete support package- all FMS. There is India's 3 carrier force. Until the homegrown Vishaal comes along, a Kitty Hawk (rechristened "VIRAAT") will do!


We cant afford it and we still be in a mess, we have tried these type of shortcuts and it has always ended in disaster down the line. IAC-1 being our first effort will always be slower than others, better to persue sink funds and start building more.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 18 Nov 2019 17:02

^^^

1 carrier per decade is what India can probably afford. Each would cost around $15-20 billion (carrier plus air wing w/ infrastructure, weapons and lifecycle support).

2010-2020 - Vikramaditya
2020-2030 - Vikrant
2030-2040 - Vishal
.
.
.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby kit » 18 Nov 2019 17:12

srai wrote:^^^

1 carrier per decade is what India can probably afford. Each would cost around $15-20 billion (carrier plus air wing w/ infrastructure, weapons and lifecycle support).

2010-2020 - Vikramaditya
2020-2030 - Vikrant
2030-2040 - Vishal
.
.
.


The deal is most certainly an indigenous aircraft carrier with some foreign elements like the EMALS. The aircraft would be a mix of Indian and western aircraft for the first.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby kit » 18 Nov 2019 17:15

chola wrote:We have to finish up the Vikrant and then begin on the Vishal. (Or negotiate for an Amreeki mothballed super carrier if such a dream can be realistically entertained.)

The second chini carrier crossed the Taiwan Strait yesterday and received its air wing.

We have just lost the dominant position in Asian naval aviation that we had held for over half a century.


China has already the largest naval fleet in the world and we build and fight with what we need and not get into a measuring contest.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 20 Nov 2019 13:32

The Chinese have the US and its allies like Japan and SoKo in the Pacific to deal with.Taiwan's integration into the mainland is going to be far tougher peacefully watching the manner in whivh Hong Kong's spark of democracy is being murdered. Hence the military buildup and options.which require more CVs to counter the number of US CVs deployed against it. I would imagine that at least 5 to 6 carriers would be deployed by the USN
apart from contributions by atllies .

As I mentioned in another mil. td., if the new planned twin-engined naval fighter is designed to fit onto the lifts of our current two flat- tops, Being more potent than the 29Ks, they could serve for decades along with the carriers too.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 23 Nov 2019 22:04

https://twitter.com/ShobhaBJP/status/11 ... 6568674305 ---> Sub Lieutenant Shivangi of Muzaffarpur, breaks glass ceiling by getting into naval cockpit. She will be first woman pilot of Indian Navy, to fly indigenously built fixed-wing Dornier surveillance plane. Congratulations Shivangi, you are an inspiration.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 23 Nov 2019 22:05

Sub Lieutenant Shivangi is the first-ever woman pilot for Navy
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 053940.ece

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 24 Nov 2019 21:21

http://www.spsnavalforces.com/news/?id=438&h=Indian-Navy-drops-HAL-Reliance-from-its-shortlist-in-the-$3-B-chopper-programme

Public Sector giant Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and its joint venture with Russian Helicopters, India-Russia Helicopters Limited (IRHL) have been dropped from the final shortlist of Indian Strategic Partnership hopefuls.


:(( :?:

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby tsarkar » 25 Nov 2019 12:16

Cybaru wrote:http://www.spsnavalforces.com/news/?id=438&h=Indian-Navy-drops-HAL-Reliance-from-its-shortlist-in-the-$3-B-chopper-programme

Public Sector giant Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and its joint venture with Russian Helicopters, India-Russia Helicopters Limited (IRHL) have been dropped from the final shortlist of Indian Strategic Partnership hopefuls.


:(( :?:


The trials of the shortlisted helicopters will take place in the "green configuration" as per existing features. The finally selected helicopter will require changes as per the requirement of the Indian Navy. For instance, of the four helicopters in the fray, only the Airbus AS565MBe has an existing military variant.


Only AS565 has a naval variant in service with Pakistan and China. Rest all need expensive Navalization. None of the four have automatic rotor folding the lack of which led to rejection of the Dhruv.

Green configuration will obviously have better performance than a full systems integration configuration. Not fair on Dhruv and I hope Defence Secretary and Raksha Mantri take notice during DAC meeting.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby JayS » 25 Nov 2019 15:58

^^ Evaluation in green form is definite recipe for disaster. If we are to spend time and take risks of navalisation, why not just do it with ALH...?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby chola » 25 Nov 2019 16:20

^^^ Maybe it is just a stacked deck for the Panther that the IN already wants?

A bit fishy if you ask me.

Strange to consider "green" config and then navalizing the selection. Yes, if that is the case then why shouldn't the IN consider navalizing the Dhruv as a priority.

But me thinks the IN has already decided on the AS565.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Indranil » 25 Nov 2019 21:55

Our acquisitions seem so ad hoc.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 26 Nov 2019 00:28

Something is wrong in this selection.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby srai » 26 Nov 2019 03:04

The IN seems to be heading backwards when it comes to indigenizing its aviation fleet.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Indranil » 26 Nov 2019 06:55

Assuming this report is correct. It seems like a case where IN doesn't want HAL to participate. So,
1. "Green helicopters" are allowed, but not one from HAL.
2. Ka-226T is allowed. But not through a collaboration between HAL and Russian Helicopters, but through a collaboration between Adani and Russian helicopters.

Point 1. is still okay. HAL has no experience with folding rotors. Navy has given up. yada, yada, yada.... But, point 2. really stinks!!!! I don't remember a case where a product is allowed, but not through established players, but complete novices!!!! Wait, I remember, it was in Rafale's case. But at least there Dassault did not want to collaborate with HAL. In this case, Russian Helicopters prefers HAL as their Indian partner. Why wouldn't it?!!! Upfront costs are much less. Hence this forced "gentleman's handshake".

It seems clear to me. Ka-226T don't have a chance. It is between the other two.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 26 Nov 2019 07:06

The trials of the shortlisted helicopters will take place in the "green configuration" as per existing features. The finally selected helicopter will require changes as per the requirement of the Indian Navy. For instance, of the four helicopters in the fray, only the Airbus AS565MBe has an existing military variant.

I'm sorry but this stinks to high heaven and reminds one of the original Army LUH deal where the Eurocopter Fennec was chosen and then disqualified once irregularities were discovered.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 26 Nov 2019 11:59

Babudom of the MOD at its worst. Kamov is supposed to have a naval version of the KA-226.It would make cost-effective sense to seriously consider it as the IA has already chosen it to be built at home. It's only a light utility helo requirement with limited mil. capability like the Chetak/All helos. The other contenders are also decent ones.Thr choice should be strictly on merit and cost.Finding a partner to build them at home is the OEM's choice as it impinges on the cost.How on earth can the MOD decide who the right partner should be when it can't even make a paper plane? When it came to the Rafale, did HAL get the nod as partner even though Dassault almost clinched an agreement with it? No.
Looks like skullduggery at work.

The serious ASW biz will be done by the 110+ Sea King replacements and Sikorsky helos to be acquired from the US. This is the vital acquisition.Let''s hope this deal will not be plagued by MOD monkey biz.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Indranil » 26 Nov 2019 12:23

Where has the MoD babu come into the picture?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 26 Nov 2019 13:06

Modi should order the 24 order of MH 60R so that there are no funds for this rubbish. HAL needs to be given this order for 111 NUH. END OF STORY!

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby mahadevbhu » 26 Nov 2019 13:21

chola wrote:We have to finish up the Vikrant and then begin on the Vishal. (Or negotiate for an Amreeki mothballed super carrier if such a dream can be realistically entertained.)

The second chini carrier crossed the Taiwan Strait yesterday and received its air wing.

We have just lost the dominant position in Asian naval aviation that we had held for over half a century.


There is still hope. The Indian navy has vastly better experience in actually operating and fighting with the weapons that it has, as compared to the Chinese Navy.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 27 Nov 2019 03:40


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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vivek K » 27 Nov 2019 21:43

mahadevbhu wrote:
chola wrote:.......

We have just lost the dominant position in Asian naval aviation that we had held for over half a century.


There is still hope. The Indian navy has vastly better experience in actually operating and fighting with the weapons that it has, as compared to the Chinese Navy.

How long can one hide behind that belief? Till one is tested or shit hits the roof? The problem with that statement is all the best experience will not help if one carrier is facing off against three. In one vs one, the statement above holds good but in 1 vs 2 ......

So I would recommend that we stop making such statements and actually support rapid capability enhancement with a re-structuring of shipyards as necessary.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Nikhil T » 28 Nov 2019 00:27

+1 to Vivek's comments. We risk falling into the Paki trap of criminally underestimating the adversary's capabilities. E.g. a Pak soldier == 10 rice eating Endian soldiers. When China churns out DDG/FFG ships, we claim that they don't have the trained crews to man them. Well, how hard is it for a Navy that is literally pouring billions into ships to build a training academy? Surely, PLAN is not stupid to build these complex, expensive ships and then realize that they don't have trained crews to run them! For some reason, we still claim INS Ezhimala as "Asia's largest naval academy". That can't possibly be true any more.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby fanne » 28 Nov 2019 01:21

plus they have shown before (as in Olympics), they can create the best in world class athletes with no history of previously excelling in these areas. They didn't reach here by being stupid.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vips » 28 Nov 2019 04:19

Indian Navy is commissioning on Nov 29th its Sixth Dornier aircraft Squadron at Porbandar to patrol the Northern Arabian Sea area (INS 314 Squadron with nickname Raptors).

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 28 Nov 2019 05:44

Can HAL at breakneck speed come out with a naval version of its new LUH, auto- folding rotors et al? It should've planned for a naval variant from the beginning
given the large requirement.Dhruv is too large and its rotor folding gear cumbersome.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 28 Nov 2019 06:10

LUH will be rejected for having a single engine.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Cybaru » 28 Nov 2019 06:36

Dhruv has the same new folding mechanism everyone has. What's cumbersome about it?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 28 Nov 2019 06:46

The Dhruv with folding rotors, non-auto supposedly ( correct me if wrong), is still a work in progress.On smaller ships , frigates and corvettes, it is more hazardous recovering on deck and transferring the helo to hangar. On larger warships like carriers and major surface combatants designed to carry SK class multi-role helos, no problem.The LUH requirement is for an All-3/ Chetak sized bird .The Dhruv is larger requiring larger hangars, etc.It will also be more expensive. A naval variant of the LUH should've been planned for.It could've been flying now along with the IAF/ IA version.

PS:Dhruv is in the same class as the Westland 149 Lynx ( retd.)/ Super Lynx/ Wildcat multi-role helo.MTO for the latter is 6000kg, Dhruv slightly less.Dimensions around the same size.Used by the RN and British forces extensively, aboard their smaller- sized frigates and destroyers. We have preferred larger more capable Sea Kings for our FFG/ DDGs given our greater operational requirements in the IOR.The RN uses its SKs, now EH-101 Merlins, superior to SKs aboard its carriers and larger warships. Where heli-decks and hangars are larger, Dhruv could fit the bill, but for the LUH requirement it appears to be too large. The IN however is using the Dhruv in limited number.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Kartik » 14 Dec 2019 08:27

So a case is being progressed for a MLU for IN's MiG-29K fighters. Would be interesting to find out what this MLU would entail. Most likely to be given to MiG to upgrade with avionics developed for the MiG-35. Although, I actually hope that the upgrade program instead goes to DRDO, using the Uttam AESA radar and the SPJ derived from the MiG-29UPG upgrade program. Structural upgrades and avionics ruggedizing will also hopefully form a part of the MLU to better handle the stresses of landing on an aircraft carrier.

Vayu- interview with Admiral Karambir Singh

ayu :Congratulations on your taking over as the 24thCNS, and the fourth Naval Aviator to do so. With your flying background and vast operational experience, would you kindly enumerate on priorities for the Navy’s expansion and modernisation over the next few years, including its air arm.

CNS : Thank you. The Indian Navy’sAir Arm is poised for a quantum growth over the next few years.

There is a comprehensive plan to augment the number and enhance the capability of ship-borne helicopters through midlife upgrades and role enhancement on the existing fleet of Kamov 28 and Sea King 42B. Procurement of eightChetak and sixteen ALH helicopters to enhance Coastal Security has commenced. Further, we also have plans to procure additional multirole helicopters to meet ship-borne helicopter requirements.

To meet Deck Based Fighter requirements, a RFI for MRCBF (Multi Role Carrier Borne Fighter) has been hosted on the MoD website. The case is being progressed in accordance with DPP-16. Further,a case for MiG-29K midlife upgrade is being progressed.Delivery of four additional P-8Is will commence from April 2020 onwards. The Government has also accorded AON for 6 additional P-8Is.

We have added four new Dornier 228 aircraft ex HAL, four are scheduled to be inducted by end of this year. We have also commissioned new Dornier Air Squadrons at Meenambakkam(Chennai) and Porbandar(Gujarat). At the same time, we are progressively upgrading our air infrastructure at Naval air bases across the country, as well as on the island territories.

In addition to Dornier aircraft, we are extensively utilisingRPAs for coastal surveillance. Three RPA Squadrons have been commissioned at Kochi, Porbandar and Ramnad. Procurement of HALE RPAS as a joint tri-Service case is also on the cards.

...

Vayu :Recently confirmed is an order for 24 MH-60R multi-mission helicopters but the requirement is for multiple times this number. Are there any plans for this or any other Type to be licence-built in India?

CNS :Acceptance of Necessity (AoN) for 24 Multirole Helicopters was accorded by DAC and Letter of Acceptance (LoA) is likely to be signed in the near future. In addition, Indian Navy also plans to procure Naval Utility Helicopters (NUH) through the Strategic Partnership Model to boost Make in India. The NUH are likely to be inducted in a phased manner commencing 2025. The most significant aspect of the Strategic Partnership is that it will facilitate absorption of niche technologies by private industries in helicopter manufacturing segment.


Vayu :The Japanese ShinMaywaUS2i amphibian aircraft has been offered to the Indian Navy for some years and the Japanese Government is reportedly keen to progress this case. What is the status of this programme and do such amphibian aircraft play a role in the Indian Navy’s blue water projections?

CNS :The induction of amphibious aircraft would significantly enhance Indian Navy’s capabilities in terms of Operational Logistics (provision of technical assistance and supply of spares to the fleet at sea), long range Search and Rescue (SAR), Casualty Evacuation (CASEVAC), and HADR missions. The proposal for the procurement of six amphibious aircraft from Government of Japan is under deliberation.



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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 14 Dec 2019 12:11

We can't simply dump the 29Ks as there is no other fighter of similar size twin-engined that can operate from our two carriers , VikA and Vikrant-2. They were also bought very cheap jusy $29M each.An upgrade shoildn't cost too much .As in the above post, adding some new MIG-35 features esp. an AESA radar and a new
BVR AAM.An upgrade should not cost more than $ 15M a pop as legacy 29s were upgráded at a cost of only $12 to $13 prr aircraft.

The IN however should keep a close weather eye of the LCA Mk-2, as it should not be outrageously dxpensive more than firang birds...
we hope!
.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Vips » 14 Dec 2019 21:19

^^ Nice for the Russians. They first sell us a lemon and now get extra money to provide services on how to squeeze the lemon to make lime juice. Just like we were the guinea pig - first to buy a Navalized Mig29, the MIG35 avionics or other equipment is also unproven.The Russians have not had much success in selling the Mig35 to other countries (Bangladesh, Malaysia, Egypt) even on very attractive terms.
Enjoy the lemonade.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby brar_w » 14 Dec 2019 21:35

Philip wrote:.As in the above post, adding some new MIG-35 features esp. an AESA radar and a new
BVR AAM.An upgrade should not cost more than $ 15M a pop as legacy 29s were upgráded at a cost of only $12 to $13 prr aircraft.


Out of curiosity, how many MiG-29/35 are currently flying with AESA radars? Just wanted to see how many (radars) have been built, are operational to see how much run time and cumulative use they've gone through..I remember Indranil opining that the structural shortcomings of the MiG-29K would take about a decade to engineer away..that should be part of any MLU. As far as avionics and mission systems, those should most definitely be indigenous including the radar.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jan 2020 00:57

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/122 ... 90117?s=20 ---> So, Boeing's Def Expo 2020 art features a pair of Super Hornets with 'नौसेना' (Indian Navy) on the tail. The F/A-18 goes up against the Dassault Rafale M for a prospective 57 carrier-borne fighter deal; vendor discussions began 2 years ago ---> https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/01 ... sault.html

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby nachiket » 30 Jan 2020 01:14

Kartik wrote:So a case is being progressed for a MLU for IN's MiG-29K fighters. Would be interesting to find out what this MLU would entail. Most likely to be given to MiG to upgrade with avionics developed for the MiG-35. Although, I actually hope that the upgrade program instead goes to DRDO, using the Uttam AESA radar and the SPJ derived from the MiG-29UPG upgrade program. Structural upgrades and avionics ruggedizing will also hopefully form a part of the MLU to better handle the stresses of landing on an aircraft carrier.

That last part, if possible, is far more important than any avionics upgrades in my opinion. Better to spend most of the budget on that and the remaining for any avionics upgrades. The new D-29 SPJ is a must. Also Astra integration with the radar. A new radar itself may be less important at this point.

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Philip » 30 Jan 2020 03:13

Any idea how much an NLCA would cost?

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Re: Indian Naval Aviation

Postby Kartik » 30 Jan 2020 04:16

Forgot to put the IN roundel on the F/A-18E single seater peeling away. :roll:

Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1222505218803290117?s=20 ---> So, Boeing's Def Expo 2020 art features a pair of Super Hornets with 'नौसेना' (Indian Navy) on the tail. The F/A-18 goes up against the Dassault Rafale M for a prospective 57 carrier-borne fighter deal; vendor discussions began 2 years ago ---> https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/01 ... sault.html

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