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Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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tsarkar
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 01 Jun 2017 19:13

sum wrote:^^ Wasnt there some news about the Seeker being indigenised by local cos like Data Patterns etc? Or was that abandoned due to techincal issues?

Prasad wrote:Data patterns is building an rf seeker. Another company is too. Alpha. The person Manning their stall at AI '17 said they're 'bidding' for an ind seeker project/replacement. So tifwiw.


Lots of information here https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/20 ... pr2016.pdf

You talked about the steep dive BRAHMOS which can be operated through different guidance software. How much of it is Indian?

Lots of software, all ground systems, support systems, guidance software are ours. But mission software is theirs. We are completely embedded into their software

The seeker technology indigenisation, please tell us more about it. Did you approach the Indian companies or they did it suo moto?

We adopted two approaches. First, we gave a contract to ECIL and Data Patterns for the new kind of RF SCAN seekers and they are working along with DRDO to do the design, development and testing. Under the second approach, Data Patterns and Alpha Design, both said that they can undertake development of RF Mono Pulse seeker in 'No Cost, No Commitment' model and if they develop a seeker, then I should replace the existing seeker with their seeker. These are the two models. Right now, we are using a RF Mono Pulse seeker and hence if they come up with it, we can replace the seeker today itself. But the RF SCAN seeker is futuristic

When you are targeting, you are using the seeker in the last 50 or 100 seconds of your flight.

We took up a project to indigenise and indigenously develop canister for BRAHMOS missile, and this was meant only for the BRAHMOS. But a variant of this canister has been used in the Agni-I's canisterisation as well.

This is news to me. I never knew Agni 1 was canisterized
Last edited by tsarkar on 01 Jun 2017 19:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Zynda » 01 Jun 2017 19:14

I think Meteor is already part of weapons package for Rafale. Not sure about Tejas. Tejas having Israeli radar, integration of Meteor will be quite expensive.

Per Aero India Astra posters, it is suitable for MiG-29, M2K, Tejas & Su-30MKI.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Philip » 01 Jun 2017 19:41

V.informative article on Ry hyper missile tech.The Ind. Exp. today had a back page feature on the Zircon hypersonic missile and this titbit is from the article.

.Race for Hypersonic Superiority: Russia Over Half-a-Decade Ahead of the US
The Zircon hypersonic missile, artist's rendering
https://sputniknews.com/military/201705 ... onic-race/
The Indo-Russian BrahMos II hypersonic cruise missile (pictured here at Defexpo 2014) is the export variant of the Russian 3M22 Zircon missile

The 3M22 Zircon was developed in the Moscow-region city of Reutov at the NPO Mashinostroyeniya rocket design bureau. Testing began in 2015, with five successful launches achieved so far.

The Indo-Russian BrahMos II hypersonic cruise missile (pictured here at Defexpo 2014) is the export variant of the Russian 3M22 Zircon missile

Tuchkov recalled that "in the last of them, a speed of Mach 6 was recorded (it should be noted that information reported in April about speeds of Mach 8 have been refuted by developers). But given the possibility of maneuvered flight, a speed of Mach 6 is more than enough of a guarantee to overcome any anti-missile system. This includes not only systems that exist today, but those expected to appear over the next two decades. Different sources place the Zircon's range between 500 and 1,000 km."

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Gagan » 01 Jun 2017 23:43

Did the Nirbhay test happen today?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 01 Jun 2017 23:46

Postponed, no idea to when.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 02 Jun 2017 12:09

Indian army successfully test fires surface–to–surface nuclear capable ballistic missile Prithvi-II off Odisha coast.

https://twitter.com/prasarbharati/statu ... 4270035968

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby sudhan » 02 Jun 2017 13:20

These prithvi tests are usually a smokescreen for BMD/ strategic missile tests..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby DrRatnadip » 02 Jun 2017 14:04

http://m.timesofindia.com/india/russia- ... 958137.cms

ST PETERSBRUG: Russia today said it was preparing to supply S-400 Triumf anti-aircraft missile systems to India and both governments were "simply discussing" the terms.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Muns » 03 Jun 2017 01:01

Indian army: Test-fires nuclear capable Ballistic Missile Prithvi II: Successful!

Defence sources said that it was mounted on a Mobile Tatra transporter-erector Launcher (MTL). The indigenously built ballistic missile Prithvi-II was fired from the launching complex – III (LC-III) of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea at about 9.50 am.


http://www.india-aware.com/indian-army-test-fires-nuclear-capable-ballistic-missile-prithvi-ii-successful/

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Bheeshma » 03 Jun 2017 02:06

Or could be K-4/5 being tested from Arihant close by.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby jamwal » 03 Jun 2017 12:38

Did you read the full article ? This was meant to be twin test, 2nd one didn't happen. Most likely a training exercise.

But can't be sure about how much of it is true when they say this

>It uses an inertial guidance system with good accuracy while the warhead uses a radar correlation terminal guidance system. It can hit mobile targets, including unmanned aerial vehicles.
:lol:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Muns » 04 Jun 2017 13:23

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Thank you Jamwal for pointing that out, I guess even my journalists can catch DDMitis in a while, I usually review their articles, but that one sentence skipped me by completely. I will edit it out later....
Also If you ever need to report anything on Jammu or the Valley, India Aware is always available to express your views....

Muns....

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby jamwal » 04 Jun 2017 13:35

That's your website ?

Thanks for offer. I don't live there anymore but maybe some time in future.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 04 Jun 2017 14:32

Odisha: Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QR-SAM) test fired for first time from launch pad-3 of Chandipur, at 12.39 pm today.

https://twitter.com/ANI_news/status/871278896921980928

A Deshmukh
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby A Deshmukh » 04 Jun 2017 15:08

ashishvikas wrote:Odisha: Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QR-SAM) test fired for first time from launch pad-3 of Chandipur, at 12.39 pm today.
https://twitter.com/ANI_news/status/871278896921980928

which missile is this?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2017 16:09

Awesome!

Indranil - do a bhangra.

Image

Image

Image

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2017 16:12

See that circular thingmajig on top of the radar vehicle?

Image

So-
- Astra based missile
- Track on the move AESA radars
- SEOS for passive tracking
- Fire & forget desi missile with active homing & also ground based guidance

IA & IAF AD will take a huge leap forward.

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2017 16:14

The AESA radars above are directly derived from the MMSR which served as a TD program.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby jamwal » 04 Jun 2017 16:46

Is there any guess how long will it take this missile to finish testing and be inducted ?
To be honest, it's the first time I noticed any Indian QRSAM. Did armed forces really ask for it or is it an "independent" project from DRDO fated to be another Nag ?

@livefist
A @DRDO_India source tells us today's QRSAM test was a 'very initial subsystem level test'.

@livefist
The DRDO-BEL QRSAM tested today is understood to be based on the Astra system. Official specifications:
Image

Isn't range very similar to Akash ?

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2017 16:57

Jamwal, QRSAM is designed for an IA requirement for a mobile, lightweight system whose fire control can track on the move, has 360 degree quick surveillance capability (as versus most of today's systems which have rotating arrays) and fire & forget missiles.

The program was funded openly as of 2016 or thereabouts & is in advanced stage of development, benefiting from prior work done on Astra & the MMSR.

The plan was to test the missile this year - glad to know its occurred. I would state 3-4 years before we can see a production ready unit, depending on how far ahead the prototyping is.

The radar in particular, because MMSR was subsumed into QRSAM radar last year.

We have time because Akash is (sensibly) replacing the SA-6 holdings right now & if the IA does have some Spyders on order, there is a quick boost to immediate holdings (not all SA-6s will be retired either).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2017 17:00

Range is similar to Akash because for all practical purposes QRSAM is an IA specific replacement of Akash especially with a focus on mobility. Cons are more expensive missiles, and less resistance to EW (ground based HPRs are not as easy to blank out with noise jamming). In contrast, QRSAM is likely to be F&F, though there may be a mode to guide the missile all the way, the Rajendra is a beast of a radar with a much larger aperture.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby shiv » 04 Jun 2017 17:00

Karan M wrote:The AESA radars above are directly derived from the MMSR which served as a TD program.

wat ij MMSR?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby jamwal » 04 Jun 2017 17:09

Thanks

Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Jun 2017 17:10

Shiv-ji,
Multi Mission Surveillance Radar. I believe it was a LRDE program to develop a radar which could both do 3D Surveillance & also step in for fire control. There is one challenge though. Suppose you have a target from x, but need to keep looking at y,z then the target refresh for x will drop. Hence DRDO moved to the new 4 - side AESA approach and 2 radars, which are very similar in design. One as surveillance, 4 as battery fire control radars but with secondary surveillance function. So while 1-2-3 panels (say) guide the missile (i would presume there are separate data links to do the actual guidance but at least missiles can be fired simultaneously in multiple directions), the 4th panel can keep doing surveillance onlee. With timesharing, the other 3 panels can do both fire control & surveillance. Meanwhile at the command post, one radar is doing purely surveillance. Its a nifty idea.

The con is that if you see the above rotating MMSR pic, it has a much bigger sized radar array. Tht means advantages in power, resolution etc but these things are always trade offs and the 30 mtr resolution, can resolve targets located 30 mtrs from each other & guide in a missile with around 10 mtrs accuracy . That's good enough for an ARH class system. The warhead will do the rest & its onboard seeker.

In fact I presume tricksy things will be done. The Battery command post radar provides initial cueing, missile firing & angular/azimuth info from the SEOS optical sensors, range finding too (~16 km if the above report is accurately phrased, in contrast overall detection ranges can be 40 km https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/20 ... eb2016.pdf and the radar only beeps once from the fire control for height finding. The targeted aircraft's jammer is of limited help.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby jamwal » 04 Jun 2017 18:33

DRDO test fires Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QR-SAM) from Odisha coast
The missile is equipped for quick reaction and the system is all weather enabled, a network-centric one, which is also capable of search-on-the-move, track-on-the-move and fire on short halts. The missile are mounted on a Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV) with 360 degree rotatable, electronic-mechanically operated, turret-based launch unit capable of carrying 6 missiles.

The missile system can engage multiple targets within a range from 3 km to 30 km in azimuth and 30 m to 6 km in altitude. The missile can engage aircrafts at 500m/s at 20 km and 300m/s at 30 km, along with helicopters and UAVs. The missile also has terminal guidance using an RF seeker.
The system has AESA radar with X-band Quad Transmit Reciever Modules (QTMs), Two Way Data Link (TWDL) and IFF. the Battery Surveillance Radar (BSR) has a range upto 120 km and the Multi-Function Fire Control Radar (BMFR) has a tracking range of upto 80 km.

Each regiment has 1x Regiment Command Post Vehicle (RCPV) and control upto 3x Batteries. Each Battery will have 1x Battery Command Post Vehicle, 1x Battery Surveillance Radar (BSR) and 4x Combat Groups. Each CG will have 1x BMFR and 1x MLV.
Image
https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/phot ... 95/?type=3

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Singha » 04 Jun 2017 18:44

Afaik the similar looking patriot pac1 of ods fame had to stop completely for any search track fire. Sometimes telar trucks got slowed by sand. They deployed overlapping batteries so that one would be live while others moving.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby brar_w » 04 Jun 2017 18:46

Patriot is an inherently different system from QRSAM. The US currently does not have a Short-Medium Ranged on the move system (besides the SHORAAD ANG) but is developing something to that end but it will reflect very different requirements.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Gyan » 04 Jun 2017 22:32

The refresh rate of rotating AESA can be very fast with less than 1/4 second between reacquiring target after blind spot. But I think 4 AESA panels were adopted to make the system future proof in which Steathly PGMs may be acquired at very last moment when they are very close as target and it may also have a role against tactical SS rockets.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 05 Jun 2017 08:18

The missile will not be bought by the army. As the maximum operating temp is only 45 degrees odd. Did DRDO not understand the needs of the Indian army that they need a missile that can work in thar in May and June during 10 am and 3 PM.

Only imported missiles will do.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby rohiths » 05 Jun 2017 09:34

Very TFTA looking. Great achievement. This should be inducted in large numbers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby nirav » 05 Jun 2017 09:39

Pratyush wrote:The missile will not be bought by the army. As the maximum operating temp is only 45 degrees odd. Did DRDO not understand the needs of the Indian army that they need a missile that can work in thar in May and June during 10 am and 3 PM.

Only imported missiles will do.
Yes indeed.
Just like the army imported Akash SAMs. :roll:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby srai » 05 Jun 2017 10:01

Karan M wrote:...
We have time because Akash is (sensibly) replacing the SA-6 holdings right now & if the IA does have some Spyders on order, there is a quick boost to immediate holdings (not all SA-6s will be retired either).


Wondering how long missiles could be kept serviceable. The SA-6s were bought around 1977. That's some 40-years ago. Shukla had an article a long while ago regarding IAF's SA-3 where it was mentioned 15-years (or so) was max that OEM did but DRDO extended it to 21-years. So the question is how many of these very old SA-6s still viable (not just as counts on paper)?

First Akash missile system to fill gap in air defence
Tuesday, 23 November 2010
...
Without the anti-aircraft resources needed to protect these VAs/VPs, the outdated Pechora missiles, which began service in 1974 with a designated life of nine years, have been granted repeated extensions. The Russian manufacturers extended the life to 15 years; when they refused any further extensions, the DRDO extended it unilaterally to 21 years. By 2004, only 30 Pechora units of the 60 originally imported were still in service.

On January 15, 2003, the IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal S Krishnaswamy, wrote to the MoD saying that 60 per cent of India’s VAs/VPs could no longer be provided anti-aircraft protection. The IAF’s top officer wrote: “By 2004… terminal defence of VA/VPs would be only notional… We need to import minimal number of systems to meet our national defence needs.”
...

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Aditya G » 05 Jun 2017 14:55

Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) conferred with Raksha Mantri’s Institutional Award for Excellence in Performance for 2014-15 by

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 05 Jun 2017 16:37

Amogha looks just like a local Milan.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby rohitvats » 05 Jun 2017 19:53

Karan M wrote:Amogha looks just like a local Milan.


MILAN-2T from BDL's stable which finally meets the range requirement? Earlier one was inducted even when it fell short of the target range.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Kanson » 05 Jun 2017 20:10

It is infact desi Milan-3.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby srai » 05 Jun 2017 20:13

Bigger image of DRDO's Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QR-SAM) - Missile Launch Vehicle (MLV)
Image



Anyone can find a picture of the missile and BMFR? Maybe DRDO will display it at Defense Expo 2018 and/or parade it at Republic Day.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Kanson » 05 Jun 2017 20:34

jamwal wrote:Is there any guess how long will it take this missile to finish testing and be inducted ?
To be honest, it's the first time I noticed any Indian QRSAM. Did armed forces really ask for it or is it an "independent" project from DRDO fated to be another Nag ?
It is indeed a specific req from Indian Army. Based on fund allocation drdo was working on this QRSAM proj for the past 5 yrs.

jamwal wrote:@livefist
A @DRDO_India source tells us today's QRSAM test was a 'very initial subsystem level test'.

@livefist
The DRDO-BEL QRSAM tested today is understood to be based on the Astra system. Official specifications:
Image

Isn't range very similar to Akash ?
QRSAM spec requirement can be equated as SRSAM spec + mobility.
SRSAM req is met by Akash SAM. So it is natural to see the range similarities. Infact if i'm not wrong QRSAM exceeded the spec requirement set by IA.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Kanson » 05 Jun 2017 20:36

Amogha & its variants are locally developed equivalents of Milan-3 & Milan-ER.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Aditya G » 05 Jun 2017 20:48

Image

Image

As per BDL site, Milan-2T is man portable. Let's ensure LoC is well stocked with it for bunker busting role!


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