Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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ambati
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ambati » 29 Aug 2017 15:11

hnair wrote:
sas wrote:Image
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Intricate plumbing points to liquid motor. Looks like a prithvi.


Looks like a PII target. The two engines are similar, including the regenerative cooling (or turbopump exhaust?) manifold ring around the nozzle
Image

Although if skin is aluminium, the pitting could be caused by sea-water corrosion, because there is not much depth to the pits. Those pits are not going to fold up or cut a real bad missile!


But way nicer approach than "ridiculously well-informed civilian enthusiast hiding behind a convenient bush with a camera at right time" :lol:




Hi I am new here.I dont think it is aluminum it should be steel and the amount corrosion on the engine and the edges of the cracks shows it is old more then a month . because this corrosion will take more time but the engine shows lot more corrosion then it should have. But i may be wrong

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Marten » 29 Aug 2017 15:20

Prasad wrote:Tangentially related to this thread -
https://tribunecontentagency.com/articl ... t-request/
What’s in Japan’s Record 2018 Defense Budget Request?

Details of the request are yet to be fully finalized, but officials indicated that Japan will request money for: the introduction of the Aegis Ashore land-based missile defense system (amount unspecified because needs to be negotiated with the United States); SM-3 Block 2A intercept missiles (47.2 billion yen); PAC-3 MSE missiles (20.5 billion yen); the enhancement of the automatic warning and control system’s detection capacity (10.7 billion yen); the development of a next-generation radar capable of tracing stealth aircraft (19.6 billion yen); two destroyers that can remove sea mines (96.4 billion yen); six F-35A stealth fighters (88.1 billion yen); four Osprey tilt-rotor transport aircraft (45.7 billion yen) the maintenance of facilities for Self-Defense Forces units stationed on the southwestern islands of Okinawa (55.2 billion yen); the development of a high-speed glide bomb for use in contingencies on such islands (10 billion yen) or Rs 590Cr; the development of a system to monitor space activity (4.4 billion yen).

We've been testing our Garuda & Garuthma for a couple of years now. If we get it into LSP state, we could find a way to export it to the Japanese.

Six F-35A for approximate $880mn. Guessing that this will not include any capital costs related to training or additional spares or bases or BRD type expenses. vs. US estimates of 165mn overall per jet
The estimate for the overall average per-jet program acquisition cost in current dollars -- the most complete measure of a weapon’s cost -- increased to $164.6 million per jet from $154.3 million, according to the release.

Mods, sorry for the OT, but this was really interesting.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 29 Aug 2017 15:37

ambati wrote:
hnair wrote:
Looks like a PII target. The two engines are similar, including the regenerative cooling (or turbopump exhaust?) manifold ring around the nozzle
http://www.b14643.de/Spacerockets/Speci ... ne_big.jpg

Although if skin is aluminium, the pitting could be caused by sea-water corrosion, because there is not much depth to the pits. Those pits are not going to fold up or cut a real bad missile!


But way nicer approach than "ridiculously well-informed civilian enthusiast hiding behind a convenient bush with a camera at right time" :lol:




Hi I am new here.I dont think it is aluminum it should be steel and the amount corrosion on the engine and the edges of the cracks shows it is old more then a month . because this corrosion will take more time but the engine shows lot more corrosion then it should have. But i may be wrong


India's strategic force command conducts multiple tests of Prithvi missile every year, this can be from any of those tests. I dont think its from ABM test as the target missiles normally have white-red colour scheme and not the green brown scheme of the operational missile

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 15:50

Kakarat wrote:India's strategic force command conducts multiple tests of Prithvi missile every year, this can be from any of those tests. I dont think its from ABM test as the target missiles normally have white-red colour scheme and not the green brown scheme of the operational missile


What would explain the multiple holes peppered and all of nearly equal size and all entering and exiting from the same direction?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 16:09

Karan M wrote:Thats aluminium alloy I think.. not composite.


Look at the pattern of "tearing" of outer skin in the image below. Metals bend before tearing and stay bent leaving bent edges. Does not look like a metal tear to me
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DITTJV9V4AI7eXF.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 16:14

ambati wrote:. the amount corrosion on the engine

Could it be heat damage on the engine?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 29 Aug 2017 16:19

sometimes engines and pipes may be sprayed with some insulating material before use ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 29 Aug 2017 16:28

shiv wrote:
Kakarat wrote:India's strategic force command conducts multiple tests of Prithvi missile every year, this can be from any of those tests. I dont think its from ABM test as the target missiles normally have white-red colour scheme and not the green brown scheme of the operational missile


What would explain the multiple holes peppered and all of nearly equal size and all entering and exiting from the same direction?


Sir, honestly all the holes I see are fastening holes only and the round white thing allover the body seems to be sea corrosion or invasive organic growth

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 16:42

Kakarat wrote:
shiv wrote:What would explain the multiple holes peppered and all of nearly equal size and all entering and exiting from the same direction?


Sir, honestly all the holes I see are fastening holes only and the round white thing allover the body seems to be sea corrosion or invasive organic growth

See this image - look at the plate the guy is holding at bottom left - you can see his thumb and fingers. The fastening holes are seen separately from multiple "exit holes" randomly distributed near the guys thumb. There are at least a dozen of those holes. Enlarge the image if need be.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DITTNMkUMAEcHTR.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby andy B » 29 Aug 2017 17:02

shiv wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Sir, honestly all the holes I see are fastening holes only and the round white thing allover the body seems to be sea corrosion or invasive organic growth

See this image - look at the plate the guy is holding at bottom left - you can see his thumb and fingers. The fastening holes are seen separately from multiple "exit holes" randomly distributed near the guys thumb. There are at least a dozen of those holes. Enlarge the image if need be.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DITTNMkUMAEcHTR.jpg


Doc sahib hazarding a guess here....could it be the impact result of one of them gimballed directional warhead from a PAD / PDV hit? AAD IIRC uses kinetic warhead so dont reckon its that just my 2 cents.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 29 Aug 2017 17:45

shiv wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Sir, honestly all the holes I see are fastening holes only and the round white thing allover the body seems to be sea corrosion or invasive organic growth

See this image - look at the plate the guy is holding at bottom left - you can see his thumb and fingers. The fastening holes are seen separately from multiple "exit holes" randomly distributed near the guys thumb. There are at least a dozen of those holes. Enlarge the image if need be.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DITTNMkUMAEcHTR.jpg


Sir, From the colour i presume that it is the outer side of the panel and if it has been hit and penetrated by a warhead it should be a depression and not a projection. Actually that is want i called as 'white thing' in my previous reply, I still feel it is come kind of salt growth or organic growth. And one more thing if it was hit by a warhead some 15KM above (in case of AAD) and still fall into the sea with so many components intact?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby geeth » 29 Aug 2017 18:06

What would explain the multiple holes peppered and all of nearly equal size and all entering and exiting from the same direction?


IMO Those zig zag holes are for rivets..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 20:02

Kakarat wrote:Sir, From the colour i presume that it is the outer side of the panel and if it has been hit and penetrated by a warhead it should be a depression and not a projection.

True. So either the explosion was from inside the missile or these are bearings that have simply gone through skin on one side and come out from the other side and what we see is the exiting side. After all most of the body is fuel tank - so it's not as if there was some solid material for the shrapnel to be stopped. But those randomly placed holes are certainly not rivet holes because they are not clean like rivet holes. They look like the reverse side of plastic or metal when you punch a hole with a nail. Those are "exit wounds" to use medical jargon

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby hanumadu » 29 Aug 2017 20:06

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 2h2 hours ago
Behold, an image of @DRDO_India's Nag ATGM being launched from NAMICA during recent tests. A new indigenous MWIR seeker is being used.


Image
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 29 Aug 2017 20:35

shiv wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Sir, From the colour i presume that it is the outer side of the panel and if it has been hit and penetrated by a warhead it should be a depression and not a projection.

True. So either the explosion was from inside the missile or these are bearings that have simply gone through skin on one side and come out from the other side and what we see is the exiting side. After all most of the body is fuel tank - so it's not as if there was some solid material for the shrapnel to be stopped. But those randomly placed holes are certainly not rivet holes because they are not clean like rivet holes. They look like the reverse side of plastic or metal when you punch a hole with a nail. Those are "exit wounds" to use medical jargon


My point is there is no explosion/penetration either from outside or inside, the missile has hit the water surface broken on impact and sunk. If it was hit at altitude it will be torn apart into pieces by the wind due to its velocity and spread across a large area and also the fuel in the tank could also create a secondary explosion. If it was the missiles warhead exploding on impact of surface would also disintegrate the missile but while testing I don't think they would use a live warhead. the projections you see could be settlements or growth due to lying under the sea for a long time similar to the white patches on all surface of missile body

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Aug 2017 20:50

Fair enough. But those holes are genuine and cannot be explained. They are basically "shrapnel holes"

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JTull » 29 Aug 2017 20:54

MWIR, what's that? A dual-mode seeker?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 29 Aug 2017 20:57

Mid-wave Infrared Seeker.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 29 Aug 2017 21:03

hanumadu wrote:
Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 2h2 hours ago
Behold, an image of @DRDO_India's Nag ATGM being launched from NAMICA during recent tests. A new indigenous MWIR seeker is being used.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIZcQcoVwAAc0ik.jpg:large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIZdJMyUIAAn6vo.jpg:large


So from these latest photos of Nag it seems it uses the same old motor configuration and not the New configuration as in Helina as per my earlier discussion with Indranil

Indranil wrote:
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 29 Aug 2017 21:49

Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618

Meanwhile, ARDE Pune's 500 kg general purpose bomb has undergone successful carriage & separation tests from a Su-30MKI.

Image

Anyone have any info on this? How different are they from High Speed Low Drag Aircraft Bombs?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby VinodTK » 29 Aug 2017 21:50

INDIAN NAVY RECEIVES FIRST MISSILE JOINTLY DEVELOPED WITH ISRAEL
The first long-range surface to air missile (LRSAM) jointly developed by Israel and India was handed over to the Indian Navy on Tuesday at a ceremony in the city of Hyderabad.

The LRSAM, or Barak-8 naval air defense system, is jointly developed by India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) in close collaboration with Israel's Israel Aircraft Industry (IAI).

The LRSAM is an advanced air and missile defense system, a unique joint development by IAI and India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) in collaboration with IAI subsidiary ELTA, RAFAEL and various Indian companies.

he system comprises of advanced phased-array radar, command and control systems, as well as launchers and missiles with advanced RF seekers. With state-of-the-art technology, the system provides missile defense against a variety of aerial, naval and air-borne threats.

The system is operational with the IDF, Indian Air Force, Indian Navy and according to a statement released by IAI, will be operational in the near future with the Indian Army as well.

India’s Minister of Defense Arun Jaitley called the delivery of the system “a historical day for India” in which the Indian Navy has become “the proud owners of one the most sophisticated systems in the world.”

Jaitley praised the collaborative effort of developing the LRSAM and said that the delivery of the first missile “coming out from indigenous production line is an example of the Indian economy and industry capabilities. We must continue developing the local infrastructure and manufacturing as part of our defense capabilities.”

“India needs to be prepared for any scenario therefore we should equip our operational forces with the best of advanced technology,” he added.

IAI has been working with the Indian defense industries and armed forces, such as the Coast Guard, Navy, Air Force and Army for the past 25 years. The partnership is part of a strategic collaboration to transfer technology to benefit Indians as part of New Dehli’s ‘Made in India’ policy.

Boaz Levi, Executive Vice President and General Manager of Systems, Missiles & Space Group stated that "the delivery of the first missile manufactured in India to India's defense arms is a technological dream come true. It is another exciting step in the many-years collaboration between IAI, India's government, India's DRDO and other partners and one that reflects a technological and engineering effort of the highest level."

India has become one of Israel’s largest buyers of military hardware. While visiting Israel in May, Indian Rear-Admiral R.B. Pandit said that India has “benefited from defense technologies, and a number of significant defense acquisitions have been made from Israel.”

He made specific reference to the Barak-8 missile system, which he said “provides the Indian Navy new and greater air-defense capabilities.”

Over the past few years, IAI has awarded several contracts for air and missile defense systems to India, including a string of deals worth $2.5 billion in recent months. In April IAI announced that it had been awarded the largest defense contract in Israel’s defense industry history after signing a $1.6 billion mega-contract with the Indian Army for the medium-range surface-to-air missile (MRSAM) advanced air and missile defense systems as well as additional LRSAM air and missile defense systems for Indian aircraft carriers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 29 Aug 2017 22:18

Is MWIR seeker better than IIR seekers? Or like older OR seekers or a variant of IIR restricted to

I hope the Army does not ask for a dual band MWIR/LWIR seeker

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 29 Aug 2017 23:11

Kakarat wrote:Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618

Meanwhile, ARDE Pune's 500 kg general purpose bomb has undergone successful carriage & separation tests from a Su-30MKI.

Image

Anyone have any info on this? How different are they from High Speed Low Drag Aircraft Bombs?


Looks HSLD config to me from the shape. But what does it have inside..? Improved explosives..?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 29 Aug 2017 23:24

JayS wrote:
Kakarat wrote:Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIZdy8bVYAARVF4.jpg

Anyone have any info on this? How different are they from High Speed Low Drag Aircraft Bombs?


Looks HSLD config to me from the shape. But what does it have inside..? Improved explosives..?


Then whats new about it? carriage & separation tests are done only for new design to check compatibility

Look at the one on the wing it looks different, looks more like a Mark 82 General Purpose Bomb

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 29 Aug 2017 23:43

Kakarat wrote:
JayS wrote:
Looks HSLD config to me from the shape. But what does it have inside..? Improved explosives..?


Then whats new about it? carriage & separation tests are done only for new design to check compatibility

Look at the one on the wing it looks different, looks more like a Mark 82 General Purpose Bomb


Well, its general purpose bomb like MK82. But I meant it looks like HSLD shape from the aspect ratio Never mind. I don't know it its HSLD or not.

If its a new design in any way it will have to be flight tested from the usual text matrix anyway - to make sure its CG and CP locations are as intended and it separates cleanly.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 30 Aug 2017 00:08

JayS wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Then whats new about it? carriage & separation tests are done only for new design to check compatibility

Look at the one on the wing it looks different, looks more like a Mark 82 General Purpose Bomb


Well, its general purpose bomb like MK82. But I meant it looks like HSLD shape from the aspect ratio Never mind. I don't know it its HSLD or not.

If its a new design in any way it will have to be flight tested from the usual text matrix anyway - to make sure its CG and CP locations are as intended and it separates cleanly.


What i meant was DRDO developed HSLD to replace the old GP bombs then why are they developing a new GP bomb?

But I found the answer in a 2015 tender from ARDE

It seems HSLD was not compatible with PGM kits available in the market so they decided to develop a new GP which is compatible with Griffin LGB kit as requested by the user

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nachiket » 30 Aug 2017 00:14

brar_w wrote:Mid-wave Infrared Seeker.

Isn't this a step backwards from the Imaging IR (I'm assuming LWIR) seeker that it originally had?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2017 01:16

Aditya_V wrote:Is MWIR seeker better than IIR seekers? Or like older OR seekers or a variant of IIR restricted to

I hope the Army does not ask for a dual band MWIR/LWIR seeker



Infrared waves is in Short Wave, Mid Wave and Long Wave IR.

I think this is a new seeker. It is still an imaging IR seeker but looks optimized for MW.

The long wave IR has the ability to penetrate atmosphere and is characteristic of rocket plumes and missile launches are detected from space.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2017 01:32

shiv wrote:
hnair wrote:Although if skin is aluminium, the pitting could be caused by sea-water corrosion, because there is not much depth to the pits. Those pits are not going to fold up or cut a real bad missile!

Check the pepper pot holes that go through and through the (composite?) sheet in the image below (man holding the peppered sheet on bottom left)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DITTNMkUMAEcHTR.jpg



Its metal.
The rivet holes are in a line.

The pepper pot depressions are a fragmented warhead like a shot shell.

Could be one of those directed warhead effect.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2017 01:40

Kakkarat, You are right. There were Griffin kits for HSLD and penetration analyses tenders for concrete barriers.

Looks like the user asked for an exact match for the Griffin kit and they developed this 500 kg GP bomb.

The old 1000 lb MC (Medium Capacity) bomb was cast steel casing and had decent concrete penetration capacity.
Then the 450 and 250 kg HSLD bombs were developed as the 1000MC was not aerodynamic.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/in ... -bombs.jsp

The old Sudarshan kit was for the 1000MC and had that rolling motion that added to the inaccuracy.
Then Griffin kits were adopted and HSLD was tried out.

Now we have this new 500 kg GP bomb.

So will it have the 1000MC capability of concrete penetration or is it thin skinned for blast damage?

Is it a casting or a forging?

I-2000 US make is made from a forging for bunker busting.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 30 Aug 2017 02:27

ramana wrote:
shiv wrote:Check the pepper pot holes that go through and through the (composite?) sheet in the image below (man holding the peppered sheet on bottom left)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DITTNMkUMAEcHTR.jpg



Its metal.
The rivet holes are in a line.

The pepper pot depressions are a fragmented warhead like a shot shell.

Could be one of those directed warhead effect.


Sir, do you think it was hit by a warhead some 15KM to 80km above and still fall into the sea with so many components intact?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 30 Aug 2017 02:41

Superb Nag pics. The new launcher looks great

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 30 Aug 2017 02:43

The system is much lighter than a tank and can provide great support for own troops against tanks in high alt areas.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2017 03:31

hanumadu wrote:
Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618 2h2 hours ago
Behold, an image of @DRDO_India's Nag ATGM being launched from NAMICA during recent tests. A new indigenous MWIR seeker is being used.


.......





Indranil, About two years ago you posted a RCI tender for sole source justification of Thales to set up a FPGA fabrication facility for an MWIR.

I think this NAG test with MWIR is from that effort!!!!


viewtopic.php?p=1925940#p1925940

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 30 Aug 2017 05:52

Buy the Akash. It is ours.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.ca/2017/08/b ... -ours.html

Not only would this help the defence industry, but also message that the govt is serious about indigenisation.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 30 Aug 2017 08:59

Kakarat wrote:Saurav Jha‏ @SJha1618

Meanwhile, ARDE Pune's 500 kg general purpose bomb has undergone successful carriage & separation tests from a Su-30MKI.

Image

Anyone have any info on this? How different are they from High Speed Low Drag Aircraft Bombs?


If I remember correctly, these new gp bombs have better concrete penetrating properties (0.75 meters of rcc, if I am recalling it correctly) and better aerodynamics for use with pgm kits.

Edit: It's actually upto 3 meters of RCC.

https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/tenders/viewTender.jsp?paramMicro=12902

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby PratikDas » 30 Aug 2017 09:49

shiv wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Sir, honestly all the holes I see are fastening holes only and the round white thing allover the body seems to be sea corrosion or invasive organic growth

See this image - look at the plate the guy is holding at bottom left - you can see his thumb and fingers. The fastening holes are seen separately from multiple "exit holes" randomly distributed near the guys thumb. There are at least a dozen of those holes. Enlarge the image if need be.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DITTNMkUMAEcHTR.jpg

I'm late to the party but the top piece does have "P II" stamped on it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 30 Aug 2017 10:53

liquid engines boys - we have no other missile except P with liquid engines.

that was all the proof needed.

the controllable nature of liquid engine enables P to mimic more flight profiles powered and coasting albeit its top speed is not very great

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 30 Aug 2017 15:25

Kakarat wrote:
JayS wrote:
Looks HSLD config to me from the shape. But what does it have inside..? Improved explosives..?


Then whats new about it? carriage & separation tests are done only for new design to check compatibility

Look at the one on the wing it looks different, looks more like a Mark 82 General Purpose Bomb

Saars this 500kg GP bomb model was there at AI at the ARDE stall right next to the HSLDs. Looked similar to the 450kg hsld. Its 3m long. slightly longer than the hsld.
Explosives - Main filling 192kg Torpex -4B
Booster charge 240g RDX/Wax(95/5)
Targets- bridges, railway tracks, runways, docks, bunkers.

Kakarat
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Posts: 1416
Joined: 26 Jan 2005 13:59

Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 30 Aug 2017 15:37

Prasad wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Then whats new about it? carriage & separation tests are done only for new design to check compatibility

Look at the one on the wing it looks different, looks more like a Mark 82 General Purpose Bomb

Saars this 500kg GP bomb model was there at AI at the ARDE stall right next to the HSLDs. Looked similar to the 450kg hsld.
Explosives - Main filling 192kg Torpex -4B
Booster charge 240g RDX/Wax(95/5)
Targets- bridges, railway tracks, runways, docks, bunkers.


Any pictures available?
To be frank the coverage and pictures from AI17 was way less than the earlier ones


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