Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 20 Nov 2017 19:35

abhik wrote:
JayS wrote:Turns out the news might be fake/wrong after all. The Israelis are in denial of cancellation. Urgh... Or may be Israelis didn't get the memo still..
Well according to Russian sources the FGFA contract is on the verge of being signed (for the past few years).

To many lies and deceits. And lack of transparency on GOI's part means no clear indication what's really happening. I temper every post of mine now with "if" "might" "perhaps" and so on in anticipation that what we are discussing turn out to be fake after all. In the age of information this lack of credible information is telling.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Nov 2017 20:05

A Deshmukh wrote:
JayS wrote: He means VSHORAD perhaps.
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 556697.ece
Two of the three OEMs in fray have failed in trials. I think this RFI also gone for a toss now.
vshorad 3/3 had failed earlier. now it is 2/3.
Resultant single vendor is not the same single vendor situation. Contracting can still go ahead.
I think the problem is the remaining vendor is using outdated technology. (any technology will get outdated, by the time the contract is awarded ).

Wonder if this is a reflection of the vendors or the GSQR framing of the IA

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 20 Nov 2017 20:20

sum wrote:
A Deshmukh wrote: vshorad 3/3 had failed earlier. now it is 2/3.
Resultant single vendor is not the same single vendor situation. Contracting can still go ahead.
I think the problem is the remaining vendor is using outdated technology. (any technology will get outdated, by the time the contract is awarded ).
Wonder if this is a reflection of the vendors or the GSQR framing of the IA

Even the BPJ or Rifle GSQRs were unmatched by any OEM in the whole damn world in past.

Will · Post by **Will** » 20 Nov 2017 20:24

shiv wrote:Is chorgupta being discussed? He's like dog poop thinking that people are worshipping it because they walk around it carefully. Do people even take this nincompoop seriously? He represents all that is wrong with Indian defence reporting

Lol photocopying brochures, articles and books and then pasting ones own watermark on them doesn't make one a reporter.

Will · Post by **Will** » 20 Nov 2017 20:26

Kashi wrote:If the news about Spike deal is correct, then GoI must be completely and undoubtedly confident that we WILL have a suitable man portable product very soon.

With the Nag still not in production I have my doubts on DRDO being able to achieve it without help.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 20 Nov 2017 20:30

JayS wrote:
abhik wrote:@JayS an equally important is who asks the question about desi equivalent. Is it expected of the clueless politico/babu or the import pasand jernails?
MP was no clueless politico by any standard. This happened under his watch, by his order, if (which is a big if) we take the article at face value. And thus I am wondering.

By clueless I mean having some (for the lack of better word) domain knowledge or institutional learning. This setting up committee for every little thing is a page straight out of 'How to sabotage a project' (posted by rammana in another thread). What is obvious to even most BRF noobs switches on like a tube light after 3 years delay.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 20 Nov 2017 20:52

abhik wrote:
JayS wrote:
MP was no clueless politico by any standard. This happened under his watch, by his order, if (which is a big if) we take the article at face value. And thus I am wondering.
By clueless I mean having some (for the lack of better word) domain knowledge or institutional learning. This setting up committee for every little thing is a page straight out of 'How to sabotage a project' (posted by rammana in another thread). What is obvious to even most BRF noobs switches on like a tube light after 3 years delay.

I am Sorry, but I am looking for an informed answer, not guesswork.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2017 22:06

Eric Leiderman wrote:http://idrw.org/ministry-of-defence-scr ... ore-154292

India scraps SPIKE deal gives development of a manportable ant tank missile to RDO, With an approx. timespan for development 3-4 years.

Accuracy of above to be determined.

This is good news for Indian mfg industry.

In the beginning IA wanted a 3rd Gen ATGM.
Javelin, Spike and DRDO missile were the contenders.
Javelin walked out as they didn't want o transfer technology. Only have assy.
Spike won the contract on TOT.
Looks like they backed out or reluctant. Wouldn't be surprised if there were govt to govt talks on this TOT business.
Hence DRDO comes back.
Also buried in the article is IA agreed to withdraw the RFI.

I hope IA gets fully involved from the project definition stage to complete trials in 3 years.
And none of this treating DRDO as a supplier but use them to develop the weapon system that meets IA requirements.

This is a big order. There is a short fall of 68,000 ATGMS.
Enough to take on NATO and Warsaw pact together!!!!

Would be a cash cow if it gets realized.

Kalyani Group can still setup the factory.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Nov 2017 22:07

I think MP got wary and setup the evaluation committee.

Zynda · Post by **Zynda** » 20 Nov 2017 22:36

Look at how NDTV runs the article with the headline:

Advantage Pak, Worries Army, As $500 Million Israeli Missile Deal Ends
No mention of withdrawal of RFI by Army in the above article. Article states that Chinese HJ-8 missiles have twice the range of missiles currently operated by IA (4 Km vs 2 Km).

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Nov 2017 22:48

Zynda wrote:Look at how NDTV runs the article with the headline:

Advantage Pak, Worries Army, As $500 Million Israeli Missile Deal Ends
No mention of withdrawal of RFI by Army in the above article. Article states that Chinese HJ-8 missiles have twice the range of missiles currently operated by IA (4 Km vs 2 Km).

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/932619758045872128

Funnily enough Indian army was not worried yesterday. The news appeared today and then Indian Army called @ndtv and said "Hello. This is Indian Army. We are worried because blah blah blah.."

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 20 Nov 2017 23:45

Between 2008 to 2016 Orders of Rs. 7500 crores were placed for ATGMs on BDL ie around 58,000 ATGMs. Info is easily available. 4000 and 4000 Milan. 15,000 and 10,000 Konkar. 25000 Vikhr.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Nov 2017 00:25

Whats Vikhr?

And where is the CLGM and SAMOS?

Should we count the Invar too?

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 21 Nov 2017 05:45

Will wrote:With the Nag still not in production I have my doubts on DRDO being able to achieve it without help.

That's why a decision such as this would need to be taken in the light of some very good reasons. Either GoI and MoD are fully convinced that what we have at the moment or what we will have very soon, is good enough that it makes the Spike acquisition superfluous, or they have detected some irregularities in the deal.

Since, there have been no hints whatsoever of the latter, from any source, even the convoluted ones, I would assume it's the former. DRDO must have done enough to convince GoI to cancel this deal.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 21 Nov 2017 07:12

I am happy to see GoI showing faith in desi products. MPATGM has been in the make for multiple years now.

In 2016, I had seen an image of it in a DRDO tender. I don't know if it is MPATGM. I had posted it here then. What else could it be?

Just before AI-17, Indra Network published the first schematic from DRDO.

Sengupta brought us the first brochure image

VEM came up with their own version called Jasmine.

VEM got the technology transfer from DRDO for the infrared seeker. VEM claims that they made the seeker 1/5th (the size/weight) that DRDO transferred to them (around 8:00 min mark).

1. VEM has its own RF seeker now.
2. They have almost realized a man portable ATGM. It is smaller than Javelin. They are going in for trials of the warhead and the propulsion (most likely from DRDO). The propulsion and warhead was never the problem of Nag/Helina.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Nov 2017 07:40

Great job. Now expect idrw a to publish with warning!!!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Nov 2017 07:42

India is pretty much "up there" when it comes to rockets. It has always been the seeker that "sought development" so to speak. If the seeker is done no collaboration is required.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 21 Nov 2017 09:16

Zynda wrote:Look at how NDTV runs the article with the headline:

Advantage Pak, Worries Army, As $500 Million Israeli Missile Deal Ends
No mention of withdrawal of RFI by Army in the above article. Article states that Chinese HJ-8 missiles have twice the range of missiles currently operated by IA (4 Km vs 2 Km).

I thought it was a withdrawal of the RFP not RFI? This is not a big deal, but just the RFP was withdrawn for a number of reasons. Now if the Defence Ministry would cancel the Rafale and withdraw from the Russian FGFA would be a big positive development!

srai · Post by **srai** » 21 Nov 2017 09:19

Indranil wrote:...
VEM came up with their own version called Jasmine....

VEM got the technology transfer from DRDO for the infrared seeker. VEM claims that they made the seeker 1/5th (the size/weight) that DRDO transferred to them (around 8:00 min mark).

1. VEM has its own RF seeker now.
2. They have almost realized a man portable ATGM. It is smaller than Javelin. They are going in for trials of the warhead and the propulsion (most likely from DRDO). The propulsion and warhead was never the problem of Nag/Helina.

VEM -> started bottom-up approach instead of top-down

They are going to be a big player in the Indian MIC. Strong in core engineering competency. Unlike the current big private Indian players who are waiting for MII ToT w/ GoI handout, VEM has done it the "old fashioned" way growing organically over the last 30-years.

On that note, future of Indian aerospace are with the ones selected on merit for LCA Tier-1 production partners. They are the ones to watch for.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Nov 2017 12:55

Kersi wrote:But I have a query. When do we see a large numbers of Nags (or Anamika or whatever-you-call-it) in Indian Army, Indian Air Force and why not the Indian Navy

At 4-7 km range, the OTO 76/62 or AK-100 guns can pump out shells with warheads equivalent to Nag.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 22 Nov 2017 01:52

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Nov 2017 04:24

Yes, Gagan created that graphic and will ask him to update.. Don't post in multiple threads...

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Nov 2017 12:05

kurup said that air-launched BrahMos test is between 21 & 23 Nov. Today is 22. Waiting impatiently for another success story.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Nov 2017 12:11

https://www.thequint.com/news/india/def ... e-in-india

Govt Cancels Spike Missile Deal With Israel, Set to Make in India
THE QUINT2 DAYS AGOINDIA2 min read
3.2k ENGAGEMENT
0
The Ministry of Defence has reportedly asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to "indigenously develop and produce" Man-Portable Anti-Tank Guided Missile (MPATGM) for the Indian Army, after deciding to cancel the $500 million deal with Israel for the production of Spike ATGM.

The decision to cancel the deal was after considering that a foreign ATGM import would have a negative impact on DRDO's programme for indigenous development, reported Indian Express.

The deal was expected to be signed after price negotiations with Rafael Advanced Defence Systems of Israel were completed in 2016, the report added. Rafael had reportedly even entered into a joint venture with Kalyani group for the production of this missile in India.
Also Read: India Successfully Test Fires Quick Reaction Missile
DRDO has successfully produced the Nag and Anamika ATGMs. It is confident about providing the Army with an MPATGM of third generation missile technology, at par with Spike, within three to four years. It won’t also need any transfer of technology.
Source to The Indian Express
India's decision to retract Request for Proposal (RFP), however, is expected to be a "setback to the modernisation" programme of the Army.
According to the report, the Army wrote to the Ministry of Defence, stating the “operational urgency of the equipment”. The letters also reportedly highlighted that the missile will boost the troops deployed on the Line of Control.
Also Read: Israel Inks $2 Bn Missile Deal for Indian-Made Aircraft Carrier
The Army has a shortage of around 68,000 missiles, the report stated. It added that as against the government stipulation, no missiles were held as reserve for 10 days of intense fighting.

http://www.timesnownews.com/india/artic ... ala/129040

Govt cancels massive anti-tank guided missile deal with Israel, asks DRDO to 'Make in India'
Updated: Nov 20, 2017 | 10:32 IST | Times Now Digital
Nag missile system
File image of Nag missile system | Image courtesy: DRDL
New Delhi: The Union government is reported to have cancelled a planned massive USD 500 million deal with Israel for Spike Anti-Tank Guided Missile (ATGM).
Armed forces favour foreign fighter jets, tanks over advanced versions of indigenous Tejas, Arjun
The Indian Express newspaper reported on Monday that the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has instead asked the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to indigenously develop a Man-Portable ATGM for the Army.

The report said the Spike MR missile is a 3rd generation, fire and forget, top attack, ATGM. It has an operational range of 2.5 kilometres and is capable of being used both during the day and night.
The missile deal had come to be seen as an important milestone in growing Indo-Israel defence ties – it was at the stage of Request for Proposal (RFP) and on the verge of being inked following completion of price negotiations with Rafael Advanced Defence Systems of Israel last year.
The report said Rafael had set up a missile sub-systems manufacturing unit near Hyderabad last year in partnership with Kalyani group ahead of the finalisation of the deal.
India test-fires 'Nirbhay' missile
Government sources said the MoD decided to cancel the planned deal in a bid to push indigenous development of weapon systems by DRDO.
It may be recalled that India had earlier said no to an offer by US-based Raytheon-Lockheed Martin for Javelin ATGM and decided to go ahead with the Israeli weapon system.
The DRDO, which has in the past developed the successful Nag and Anamika ATGMs, plans to hand over to the Army a 3rd generation MPATGM within the next three to four years.
To develop an MPATGM, the organisation would also not require any transfer of technology, sources said.
The move, however, is seen as a setback to the Army's modernisation programme. The Army had supported the Spike deal, saying the weapon system would provide it with major capabilities along the Line of Control with Pakistan.

So is there going to be a temp/interim buy until the desi DRDO ATGM arrives?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 22 Nov 2017 13:36

No Lungi dance on BRF for Brahmos test..? I expected a lot of celebration already. Jugal Purohit tweets that the launch of Brahmos was successful and the missile delivered the payload successfully. AoA..!!!

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 22 Nov 2017 13:56

Livefist‏Verified account @livefist
More
BREAKING: BrahMos-A testfired for the first time from a Su-30 MKI over the Bay of Bengal.
3 replies 19 retweets 32 likes
Reply 3 Retweet 19 Like 32 Direct message

Livefist‏Verified account @livefist
8m8 minutes ago
More
BrahMos-A fired at ship target at 280 km range. Details awaited.

nash · Post by **nash** » 22 Nov 2017 14:05

Karthik S wrote:
Livefist‏Verified account @livefist
More
BREAKING: BrahMos-A testfired for the first time from a Su-30 MKI over the Bay of Bengal.
3 replies 19 retweets 32 likes
Reply 3 Retweet 19 Like 32 Direct message

Livefist‏Verified account @livefist
8m8 minutes ago
More
BrahMos-A fired at ship target at 280 km range. Details awaited.

Hain je kab hua, nacho B#@$%C@#%@%

Great news ... 280 km not bad , hope they will test for 350-400 km in next flight.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 22 Nov 2017 14:06

Noting on news till now. Google chacha is also silent.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 22 Nov 2017 14:09

Official MoD statement from LF handle.

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 22 Nov 2017 14:17

Yay!!!

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 22 Nov 2017 14:29

Great news. Now, no enemy surface ship is safe near the homeland and IOR.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Nov 2017 14:46

Fabulous.

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 22 Nov 2017 14:48

Order another 50 bhramos enabled mki!

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Nov 2017 15:02

ramana wrote:Whats Vikhr?

And where is the CLGM and SAMOS?

Should we count the Invar too?

Vikhr is a SACLOS beam rider, but high speed ATGM for anti-tank/blast purposes used by choppers (though it is available for ground mounting as well). Not sure whether we have it.

CLGM/SAMHO are in-development, not fielded yet, and there is no official GSQR for SAMHO.

INVAR is a tank fired weapon & not available to infantry, so IA would not classify it in same group as Konkurs and Milan-2.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 22 Nov 2017 15:48

NEWS: A Brahmos-A supersonic air launched cruise missile (ALCM) was successfully tested from an @IAF_MCC Su-30 MKI earlier today.

Target ship supposed to be totally destroyed

sudhan · Post by **sudhan** » 22 Nov 2017 16:17

Time to deploy Lungis!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2017 16:49

sudhan wrote:Time to deploy Lungis!

Don't know about lungis but..
https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/933258088508833792

Current plans include sending C-130 300 km ahead of Brahmos carrying Sukhoi to drop diapers for those who will be browning their pants.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 22 Nov 2017 16:58

Order 40 more B'Mos capable MKIs (along with few blackjacks), Indo pacific will indeed mean Indo pacific.

srin · Post by **srin** » 22 Nov 2017 17:10

Let me be the first to say something that isn't much said in these forums: kudos to HAL. You persisted in modifying the Sukhois even when the OEM didn't and you made this happen.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 22 Nov 2017 17:13

Karthik S wrote:Order 40 more B'Mos capable MKIs (along with few blackjacks), Indo pacific will indeed mean Indo pacific.

With 40 more SU 30 MKIs and say 20 TU 160s, all with Brahmos, the Arabian Sea can be renamed Indian Ocean - Extension