Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Aditya_V »

We are slowly now making various parts of the Missile which will make much more cheaper and cost efficient to field in Numbers.

https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... ile-system
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by jaysimha »

Ministry of Defence
Successful Test Firing of Brahmos with Indigenous Seeker
Posted On: 22 MAR 2018 6:11PM by PIB Delhi
BrahMos, the formidable supersonic cruise missile with indigenous seeker was successfully flight tested at 0842 hrs today at the Pokhran test range in Rajasthan. The supersonic cruise missile and the seeker have been developed jointly by DRDO and BrahMos Aerospace.

The precision strike weapon with indigenous seeker flew in its designated trajectory and hit the pre-set target. The flight test was conducted by the scientists of DRDO and BrahMos along with the Indian Army. A high level team led by Chairman DRDO & Secretary DDR&D Dr S Christopher was present during the flight trial, which included DG (Missiles & Strategic Systems) & SA to RM Dr G Satheesh Reddy and Director General BrahMos Dr Sudhir Mishra.

Programme Director Dr Dashrath Ram and Project Director Mrs V Prameelawho had led the effort for development of the indigenous seeker were also part of the team. Senior IAF officials also witnessed the successful launch of the tactical weapon.



SRR/NAo/DK/Rajib





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JayS
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by JayS »

Awesome. Seeker details available..?

In AI-2017, Alpha Tech showcased their RF seeker, they said its meant for Brahmos. They had a smaller version for AAM as well.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by srin »

Digging up an old interview with Dr Satheesh Reddy ... https://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saur ... 48587.html
SauravJha: Dr Reddy, the recently unveiled missile autonomy mission will see the development of tactical missiles that would clearly need seekers for the end game. In that context would you tell us more about the radio frequency (RF) seeker technology being developed here in RCI?

Satheesh Reddy: On the RF seeker front, we have quite a few developments taking place. We have developed a millimeter wave (MMW) seeker that is being produced by private industry. This MMW seeker is capable of both lock-on-after-launch(LOAL) and lock-on-before-launch(LOBL) configurations.

SauravJha: What is the MMW seeker meant for?

Satheesh Reddy: It is meant for PGMs and for the next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM).

SauravJha: PGMs of the kind?

Satheesh Reddy:Like the lightweight PGM under development here in RCI at the moment. This PGM has already been test-fired from an unmanned aerial vehicle and a sizeable number can also be carried by a missile like the Prithvi or by an aircraft like the Su-30 MKI. The Prithvi configuration can be used for attacking runways for example.

Continuing on the RF seeker front, RCI is also developing a Ku-band seeker for anti-aircraft applications. This is a scaled down version of an existing active radar seeker developed by us and is a requirement for the Astra. System qualification is expected to commenceearly next year.
An X-band seeker for anti-ship applications is also being pursued very seriously and trials will be held in the first quarter of 2015.
So, we've been developing MMW seeker for PGM, Ka-band seeker for Astra, X-band seeker for anti-shipping. So, two take aways for me:
- we don't know which seeker the Brahmos has
- it isn't obvious that Brahmos seeker can be used for other missiles.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by JayS »

srin wrote:Digging up an old interview with Dr Satheesh Reddy ... https://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saur ... 48587.html
SauravJha: Dr Reddy, the recently unveiled missile autonomy mission will see the development of tactical missiles that would clearly need seekers for the end game. In that context would you tell us more about the radio frequency (RF) seeker technology being developed here in RCI?

Satheesh Reddy: On the RF seeker front, we have quite a few developments taking place. We have developed a millimeter wave (MMW) seeker that is being produced by private industry. This MMW seeker is capable of both lock-on-after-launch(LOAL) and lock-on-before-launch(LOBL) configurations.

SauravJha: What is the MMW seeker meant for?

Satheesh Reddy: It is meant for PGMs and for the next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM).

SauravJha: PGMs of the kind?

Satheesh Reddy:Like the lightweight PGM under development here in RCI at the moment. This PGM has already been test-fired from an unmanned aerial vehicle and a sizeable number can also be carried by a missile like the Prithvi or by an aircraft like the Su-30 MKI. The Prithvi configuration can be used for attacking runways for example.

Continuing on the RF seeker front, RCI is also developing a Ku-band seeker for anti-aircraft applications. This is a scaled down version of an existing active radar seeker developed by us and is a requirement for the Astra. System qualification is expected to commenceearly next year.
An X-band seeker for anti-ship applications is also being pursued very seriously and trials will be held in the first quarter of 2015.
So, we've been developing MMW seeker for PGM, Ka-band seeker for Astra, X-band seeker for anti-shipping. So, two take aways for me:
- we don't know which seeker the Brahmos has
- it isn't obvious that Brahmos seeker can be used for other missiles.
The red part - that refers to the trial from Lakshya..??
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by ramana »

srin, Good memory.
Most likely the X-band seeker is for the Brahmos.
The MMW is for the SFW weapon for tanks etc.
Ku Band one is for Astra as it says in the report.

What i want to know is the datalink on the Astra. Can it take inputs from any radar on the plane?
Eg. its qualified for Su-30MKI.
Can it take the Tejas radar inputs?
If so its is only a flight trails needed.

Jaitley had inaugurated the LSP for Astra .
We haven't heard anymore news on that.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by shiv »

JayS wrote:Awesome. Seeker details available..?

In AI-2017, Alpha Tech showcased their RF seeker, they said its meant for Brahmos. They had a smaller version for AAM as well.
Yes - I recall that and at that time someone at the stall had ruefully said that their indigenous seeker had not been selected and that the seeker was still being imported. I cussed and moved on...
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by sudeepj »

Philip wrote:50 paltry missile with the IAF! BMos is a great trick to possess but v.expensive too.we ha e to field a cocktail of missiles which are less expensive than BMos but can be fielded in large numbers.It would be worthwhile to compare costs of all of our tactical missiles , glide bombs, et al and work out cost-effective options of possessing both numbers,variety and delivery platforms like aircraft types,etc.

BMos has been a great success story.As a JV it has given us a basic v.capable missile,which we've fine tuned with our OEM partner into a genuine tri-service missile with variants to suit each service.Bmos-M (the smaller one)and Hyper-BMos are eagerly awaited!
I know the purchase amounts for buying it from rus, but why should a Brahmos like missile be more expensive than a turbojet propelled missile? A turbojet should be far more expensive than a ramjet to manufacture.. The rest of the stuff that goes into the missile is similar: Machine aluminum or composites, a seeker/electronics, a booster..

If manufactured at scale, what is it in a Brahmos like ramjet powered missile that makes it more expensive than a turbojet fired missile such as Nirbhay? I 'feel', a made in India Brahmos will be about the same price as a made in India Nirbhay..
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

Man, every time I feel really down about India- accidents, murders, crimes, suicides, terrorism, China's shenanigans, less-than-wished for economic growth et al, along comes great news like this, about a Brahmos with an indigenous seeker, and being test fired successfully at that. And finally, the news of the GSLV launch next week. Yesterday was awful, too many depressing things- including Major Arya's letter, the loss of 5 security personnel in J&K, another suicide of a student reported, a girl being raped by several men for a prolonged period of time, yet another bus mishap..and more- all occurring on the same day! Too much.
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by ramana »

Did you see the pictures from Live fist and Pubby of the latest test?
Will cheer you up!!!


https://twitter.com/livefist/status/976 ... 44130?s=19

Cheers.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Karan M »

srin wrote:Digging up an old interview with Dr Satheesh Reddy ... https://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saur ... 48587.html
SauravJha: Dr Reddy, the recently unveiled missile autonomy mission will see the development of tactical missiles that would clearly need seekers for the end game. In that context would you tell us more about the radio frequency (RF) seeker technology being developed here in RCI?

Satheesh Reddy: On the RF seeker front, we have quite a few developments taking place. We have developed a millimeter wave (MMW) seeker that is being produced by private industry. This MMW seeker is capable of both lock-on-after-launch(LOAL) and lock-on-before-launch(LOBL) configurations.

SauravJha: What is the MMW seeker meant for?

Satheesh Reddy: It is meant for PGMs and for the next generation anti-radiation missile (NGARM).

SauravJha: PGMs of the kind?

Satheesh Reddy:Like the lightweight PGM under development here in RCI at the moment. This PGM has already been test-fired from an unmanned aerial vehicle and a sizeable number can also be carried by a missile like the Prithvi or by an aircraft like the Su-30 MKI. The Prithvi configuration can be used for attacking runways for example.

Continuing on the RF seeker front, RCI is also developing a Ku-band seeker for anti-aircraft applications. This is a scaled down version of an existing active radar seeker developed by us and is a requirement for the Astra. System qualification is expected to commenceearly next year.
An X-band seeker for anti-ship applications is also being pursued very seriously and trials will be held in the first quarter of 2015.
So, we've been developing MMW seeker for PGM, Ka-band seeker for Astra, X-band seeker for anti-shipping. So, two take aways for me:
- we don't know which seeker the Brahmos has
- it isn't obvious that Brahmos seeker can be used for other missiles.
Two seekers. One is an advanced version and one a replacement for the current seeker itself.

http://www.brahmand.com/news/India-deve ... /1/10.html
The seeker technology indigenisation, please tell us more about it. Did you approach the Indian companies or they did it suo moto?

We adopted two approaches. First, we gave a contract to ECIL and Data Patterns for the new kind of RF SCAN seekers and they are working along with DRDO to do the design, development and testing. Under the second approach, Data Patterns and Alpha Design, both said that they can undertake development of RF Mono Pulse seeker in 'No Cost, No Commitment' model and if they develop a seeker, then I should replace the existing seeker with their seeker. These are the two models. Right now, we are using a RF Mono Pulse seeker and hence if they come up with it, we can replace the seeker today itself. But the RF SCAN seeker is futuristic.

With the seeker technology, BrahMos and DRDO are helping the Indian entities. Can this be used in other missiles also or is it specific to cruise missiles?

The seekers are used in the terminal, homing stage of the flight. So, it can be used in any kind of missiles. When you are targeting, you are using the seeker in the last 50 or 100 seconds of your flight. Whether it is BRAHMOS or any missile. So, the seeker can be used in any missile.
So today's seeker was either a Data Patterns or Alpha one.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Karan M »

DRDO was collaborating with both Alpha and Data for the seekers, so both were on an equal footing.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Indranil »

JayS wrote:
srin wrote:Digging up an old interview with Dr Satheesh Reddy ... https://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saur ... 48587.html


Satheesh Reddy:Like the lightweight PGM under development here in RCI at the moment. This PGM has already been test-fired from an unmanned aerial vehicle
The red part - that refers to the trial from Lakshya..??
No. It is SANT from a Mirach 100/5.
Image

So the seeker for SANT is MMW.
Satheesh Reddy: On the RF seeker front, we have quite a few developments taking place. We have developed a millimeter wave (MMW) seeker that is being produced by private industry. This MMW seeker is capable of both lock-on-after-launch(LOAL) and lock-on-before-launch(LOBL) configurations.
Thank you srin for remembering this report.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by John »

Philip wrote:50 paltry missile with the IAF! BMos is a great trick to possess but v.expensive too.we ha e to field a cocktail of missiles which are less expensive than BMos but can be fielded in large numbers.It would be worthwhile to compare costs of all of our tactical missiles , glide bombs, et al and work out cost-effective options of possessing both numbers,variety and delivery platforms like aircraft types,etc.

BMos has been a great success story.As a JV it has given us a basic v.capable missile,which we've fine tuned with our OEM partner into a genuine tri-service missile with variants to suit each service.Bmos-M (the smaller one)and Hyper-BMos are eagerly awaited!
It's nothing to do with cost Brahmos costs around 20 crores with domestic seeker the price should dip. The reason IAF is purchasing small amounts is because only 40 Su-30 mki are being modified to carry it.

Brahmos-M is where the heavy orders are likely to be since it can be fielded by all Flanders ( upto 3) and possibly Mig-29s.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Karan M »

John, IAF is purchasing 200+ Brahmos for its 40 Su-30 MKI fleet. The ones being referred to above are for the IAF squadrons. Note, the report says each squadron has some 50 missiles. These Brahmos squadrons (some 2 of them) likely replace the existing Prithvi squadrons.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Cosmo_R »

Question on the SU30MKI /Brahmos

What are the use cases?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by ArjunPandit »

Cosmo_R wrote:Question on the SU30MKI /Brahmos

What are the use cases?
1. PAF/PLA ships in Indian/Arabian ocean
2. C&C centers, and other HVTs e.g., fortified ammo dumps in initial softening
3. Precision strike on railway bridges in Tibet
With the cost and numbers associated, it is for initial softening.
WIth an 800 Km B'mos, the Su-30 plane can take off from bangalore, an air refuelling over Arabian and fire to strike deep inside napakistan and they will not know what hit them
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Cosmo_R »

Use cases Karan M? ^^^
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Prithwiraj »

Cosmo_R wrote:Question on the SU30MKI /Brahmos

What are the use cases?
Biggest one for me is deterrence.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by John »

Karan M wrote:John, IAF is purchasing 200+ Brahmos for its 40 Su-30 MKI fleet. The ones being referred to above are for the IAF squadrons. Note, the report says each squadron has some 50 missiles. These Brahmos squadrons (some 2 of them) likely replace the existing Prithvi squadrons.
Source for the 200? I thought the number of Brahmos-A intended to be procured was pretty small amount.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by srai »

John wrote:
Karan M wrote:John, IAF is purchasing 200+ Brahmos for its 40 Su-30 MKI fleet. The ones being referred to above are for the IAF squadrons. Note, the report says each squadron has some 50 missiles. These Brahmos squadrons (some 2 of them) likely replace the existing Prithvi squadrons.
Source for the 200? I thought the number of Brahmos-A intended to be procured was pretty small amount.
200 number has been mentioned for a while now.

IAF first in world to fire BrahMos missile from air
...
The proposal for fitting the Su-30MKIs was approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security in October 2012, with the decision that the IAF will get over 200 air-launched versions of the BrahMos missiles.
The plan is to have at least 40 Su-30s fitted with BraMos missiles.
...
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by shiv »

Cosmo_R wrote:Question on the SU30MKI /Brahmos

What are the use cases?
IMO most deadly would be maritime. From Malacca to the Persian gulf ships will be in trouble
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by John »

srai wrote:
John wrote: Source for the 200? I thought the number of Brahmos-A intended to be procured was pretty small amount.
200 number has been mentioned for a while now.

IAF first in world to fire BrahMos missile from air
...
The proposal for fitting the Su-30MKIs was approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security in October 2012, with the decision that the IAF will get over 200 air-launched versions of the BrahMos missiles.
The plan is to have at least 40 Su-30s fitted with BraMos missiles.
...
Yes till we get firm orders I am hesitant to take those numbers seriously remember all the early figures of huge no of Brahmos that will procured by Navy and the Russians. We have not come anywhere close that.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Singha »

another case is the large SAM radars of S300/400 family (which are protected by MRSAM+SRSAM eg pantsyr/tunguska/tor)
see vivek ahujas 1st book on massed strikes on such assets near "qaratagh la" pass

either you need a very fast missile in numbers or a ELO missile in numbers or preferably both going in.

these S/L/X/VHF SAM/anti-stealth radars and ABM radars will be protected very well and be well behind the frontal area.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by uddu »

There was one more report of arming Rustom-1 with Helina by Saurav Jha
https://www.news18.com/blogs/india/saur ... 95842.html
Image
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by jaysimha »

Image

Supersonic Cruise Missile BrahMos successfully flight tested
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Singha »

given the nature of our conflicts - either full on war or low intensity COIN(no airpower permitted), what is the use case for armed drones?
we know they are not survivable against helicopters or manpads or ZSU type guns ...

neither we have vast tracts of unpoliced free fire zones like afpak, sahel and middle east.

it will politically be impossible for govt to authorize use of armed drones in naxal areas unless a covert black ops program which will inevitably leak and damage the govt badly. and in the thick forests, its impossible to make out woodcutters/foragers vs poachers vs full-caliber naxals vs trekking club. these are our own people , not some "ragheads/ayrabs" in a far off land which none in domestic public give a hoot about.

probably we should focus on the HALE/MALE optical/thermal surveillance role and perhaps a HALE ELINT/GMTI of the Ghawkski mould.

from a purely export standpoint perhaps there is some market in mideast and sahel as cheen is exploring with wing loong....
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Neela »

John
Brahmos airframes & fuel tanks are also being targeted for local production with DMRL help
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Aditya_V »

Even in LOC it is impossible to get AAA guns everywhere, they are not easily movable, armed drones can definitely ingress and Exfil many times at night and they can always do a precision suicide mission. If thier structures are not all metal, then they will have a low Radar and IR signature and night may not be easily spotted.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote:given the nature of our conflicts - either full on war or low intensity COIN(no airpower permitted), what is the use case for armed drones?
we know they are not survivable against helicopters or manpads or ZSU type guns ...
They have to be located first.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Cosmo_R »

shiv wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote:Question on the SU30MKI /Brahmos

What are the use cases?
IMO most deadly would be maritime. From Malacca to the Persian gulf ships will be in trouble
Agreed. Dense concentration of HVT. But what role do the SU30MK/Brahmos play in this? Andamans—yes but west of that?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Cosmo_R »

Singha wrote:....

it will politically be impossible for govt to authorize use of armed drones in naxal areas unless a covert black ops program which will inevitably leak and damage the govt badly. and in the thick forests, its impossible to make out woodcutters/foragers vs poachers vs full-caliber naxals vs trekking club. these are our own people......
It's politically impossible even to have unarmed drones for surveillance against naxals.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by nam »

Singha wrote:given the nature of our conflicts - either full on war or low intensity COIN(no airpower permitted), what is the use case for armed drones?
We would need stealth UAV with laser designator, flying high and crossing LoC regularly to paint Paki artillery, motor positions & terrorist houses.

Then artillery/rocket PGM make a kabbab of the targets.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Aditya_V »

nam wrote:
Singha wrote:given the nature of our conflicts - either full on war or low intensity COIN(no airpower permitted), what is the use case for armed drones?
We would need stealth UAV with laser designator, flying high and crossing LoC regularly to paint Paki artillery, motor positions & terrorist houses.

Then artillery/rocket PGM make a kabbab of the targets.
Or one which can transmitt the GPS cordinates for those targets, which can be used by our artillery. Even conventional shells can used.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Aditya_V »

Cosmo_R wrote:
Singha wrote:....

it will politically be impossible for govt to authorize use of armed drones in naxal areas unless a covert black ops program which will inevitably leak and damage the govt badly. and in the thick forests, its impossible to make out woodcutters/foragers vs poachers vs full-caliber naxals vs trekking club. these are our own people......
It's politically impossible even to have unarmed drones for surveillance against naxals.
Well as logn it is not announced to Media, nobody will notice.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by SiddharthS »

Is the Spike deal still on the table? I thought it was spiked.

Indian missile trial jeopardizes Rafael's $500m Spike deal
Since Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu visited India in January together with Rafael CEO Yoav Har Even and announced that the deal would go ahead, talks have been renewed between the Indian army and Rafael with the hopes of concluding a final agreement.
A defense ministry source told "Globes" that "The dialogue with the Indians is continuing all the time and lately it seems that institutions in the country are falling in line behind doing the deal with Rafael because it will be a long time before the Indian missile is operational. Clearly the Indians want to develop and manufacture everything they need and the idea that until they will have full capabilities on this subject, they will buy Israeli missiles.
This concept of having 'full capabilities" and then only acquiring the equipment is flawed. It leaves huge gap in the force structure which then get filled with imports. There is no equipment with "full capabilities" because the capabilities are increasing and changing, that's why the iterative developmental model is the best way to keep the equipment up to date. when you import the weapon with the so called " full capabilities" you take the iterative developmental funds away from the domestic project and, as a consequence, domestic project never takes off. so when the imported weapon becomes obsolete, you don't have the domestic alternative because you took away the funds, which then leads to another import and the cycle continues.
We managed to hold the Akash firmly and not let the import drown out its order, which gave funds for the iterative development of Akash 1s and Akash NG.
the source added, "We weren't particularly impressed by the latest trial in India because there is a long way to go and the Indians need to work until they will have an operational missile to keep on the shelf."

In order to move ahead with the Spike deal, Rafael has formed a joint venture with Kalyani to manufacture the missiles in India using knowhow brought over from Israel. A new plant for the Spike missiles was inaugurated near Hyderabad last summer
It's interesting to see how these countries ruthlessly support and promote their weapons. Despite the DRDO having the technology to build ATGM, these countries are still managing to sell their weapons by hook or crook. And we managed to bungle up the Philippines frigate deal.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Will »

Looks like the country is making progress with seekers. Great news that the Brahmos was tested with an indigenous seeker. Time now to indigenize the engine. India really needs to ramp up its R&D in hypersonic missiles , if not we will be left behind specially with the new hypersonic regime being proposed between US,Russia and China.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Jayram »

A very good master thesis assuming a non military audience on Active RF homing for missiles from a Swedish student (getting help from SAAB) for those interested in deeper dive into this area of tech..
http://photon.isy.liu.se:81/student/exj ... s/3309.pdf
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by Cain Marko »

MKI + Brahmos is India's version of Backfire. I'm wating for the Super 30 upgrade. If they can give the MKI longer legs and a more powerful engine, would make it very interesting.
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neeraj
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Post by neeraj »

So we made the seeker for Brahmos - if I recall right Brahmos top brass said that because it is a joint venture certain components like seeker and the engine can only be Russian only. What gives?
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