Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

kit · Post by **kit** » 05 Apr 2018 21:47

sudeepj wrote:Its amazing that when F16 purchases are pushed by the OEM, Rus rakshaks jump up and down claiming Pak has the same weapon. Rus Rakshaks also want to purchase an off the shelf Rus SAM that is also operated by our primary strategic enemy, Cheen, that Rus appears to be politically, economically and strategically allied with!

What does Rus buy from India? Its a one way trade with them selling us super high priced cold war vintage weapons.

Russia can buy from India almost everything they get from China , except maybe a few electronics and engineering stuff.

John · Post by **John** » 05 Apr 2018 21:49

sudeepj wrote:Its amazing that when F16 purchases are pushed by the OEM, Rus rakshaks jump up and down claiming Pak has the same weapon. Rus Rakshaks also want to purchase an off the shelf Rus SAM that is also operated by our primary strategic enemy, Cheen, that Rus appears to be politically, economically and strategically allied with!

What does Rus buy from India? Its a one way trade with them selling us super high priced cold war vintage weapons.

If you follow leak information China has more or less given tens of billion under the table to Russia essentially keeping russian arms industry afloat (how do you think russians funded Sochi). In return Russians have given access to lot of arms tech, i would be more scare of what Russians have given to China in terms of S-400 tech than Western sale of arms to Pakistan (latter is purely just the equipment, in case of China russians have given basically the blue print).

I think another non US F-16 was shot down, and a couple of dozen UAVs. More aircraft were damaged and quite a few helicopters were downed or damaged as well. But as I said, it was an overwhelmingly one-sided air-campaign given how SAM's and AAA have done in past conflicts if one goes back a few decades.

Yes i concur not sure why it is being brought up as successful demonstration of SAM and AAA.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 06 Apr 2018 00:49

Its successful if you define success the 'Pakistan/Hezbollah/Monty Python - dark night' way. So what if the hated invader destroyed all my tanks, made me concede territory and achieved all his war goals.

I am still here with my thumb up my a**hole, therefore I am the winner.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Apr 2018 01:03

Ok enough Kosovo war stuff.

John · Post by **John** » 06 Apr 2018 02:32

Back on topic on S-400; not sure why it's needed current solution of Barak-8 (+ ER) and AAD can address that gap at a cheaper price.

S-400 cost is staggering 5 system for 40,000 crores which equates to 40 launchers and around 240 missiles. Price figure likely to go up if more longer ranged missiles are procured.

Barak-8 recent order was 40 launchers and 200+ missiles for 17,000 crores.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Apr 2018 10:12

John wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Its amazing that when F16 purchases are pushed by the OEM, Rus rakshaks jump up and down claiming Pak has the same weapon. Rus Rakshaks also want to purchase an off the shelf Rus SAM that is also operated by our primary strategic enemy, Cheen, that Rus appears to be politically, economically and strategically allied with!

What does Rus buy from India? Its a one way trade with them selling us super high priced cold war vintage weapons.
If you follow leak information China has more or less given tens of billion under the table to Russia essentially keeping russian arms industry afloat (how do you think russians funded Sochi). In return Russians have given access to lot of arms tech, i would be more scare of what Russians have given to China in terms of S-400 tech than Western sale of arms to Pakistan (latter is purely just the equipment, in case of China russians have given basically the blue print).

I think another non US F-16 was shot down, and a couple of dozen UAVs. More aircraft were damaged and quite a few helicopters were downed or damaged as well. But as I said, it was an overwhelmingly one-sided air-campaign given how SAM's and AAA have done in past conflicts if one goes back a few decades.
Yes i concur not sure why it is being brought up as successful demonstration of SAM and AAA.

OT here

Quite frankly I have seeing this type of news since 1997 on how Russians are angry that the Chinese haave reverse Engineered and making thier SU-27 a.k.a J-11. The CCP also likes to flaunt it but somehow the Russians always keep selling to China which is unable to export the J-10 (Lavi derived) and J-11to J-16 prices. Given they way the world imports Chinese manufactured goods, if the Chinese had really reverse engineered these, the world will be flooded with J-10 to J-16 fighters with the Russians and USA having a very poor market share. I am sure for USD 15 Billion Pakistan paid for initial 150 JF-17 they would taken 75 J-10's if China had the ability to sell them. I think the Israeli's still have some hold on the J-10's produced.

10 years back BRF was awash that Tibet was filled with Reverse engineered S-300 systems - something 150-200 systems that the moment IAF aircraft is 100km from the Chinese border swarms of S-300 system missiles will be flying towards the IAF aircraft. In Doklam the Chinese were showing their SA-9 Missiles to deter the IAF.

Somehow I don't think the Russians are as weak and dumb and Chinese so smart and Tech savvy as the World's media has been projecting them to be. Why would the IAF say its Su-30 can detect their top secret J-20. How would IAF know? I think the Chinese seem to have a huge psy-ops game.

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Apr 2018 13:44

Because the J20 is stealthy only when head on .. and the world will call their bluff once it appears in an air show

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 06 Apr 2018 15:03

John wrote:Back on topic on S-400; not sure why it's needed current solution of Barak-8 (+ ER) and AAD can address that gap at a cheaper price.

As a strategic system, there is zero evidence of any Ballistic Missile intercept having been attempted by the Barak-8 or 8ER and even if the capability exists there is nothing out there that specifies the type of missiles it can be used against. The Israelis are currently using and planning to use the Stunner for the shorter ranged ( sub 500 km TBM)s and the Arrow for the longer ranged weapons. The S-400 on the other hand can fulfill the role of a mobile Lower Tier ABM system. Secondly, if I understand things correctly, the 8-ER plans to add a Booster to the Barak-8 in order to extend its range? If so, how will this work when it will perform ABM mission in highly populated areas such as large metros or guarding large population centers where you cannot cordon off a large area for the booster to fall off safely?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 06 Apr 2018 15:23

ABM duties in India should go to PAD and AAD, 5 Billion Investment in these will get you more systems than the S-400, but the AAD and PAD are not very useful in intercepting aircraft at long range where the S-400 is better

John · Post by **John** » 06 Apr 2018 20:25

brar_w wrote:
John wrote:Back on topic on S-400; not sure why it's needed current solution of Barak-8 (+ ER) and AAD can address that gap at a cheaper price.
As a strategic system, there is zero evidence of any Ballistic Missile intercept having been attempted by the Barak-8 or 8ER and even if the capability exists there is nothing out there that specifies the type of missiles it can be used against. The Israelis are currently using and planning to use the Stunner for the shorter ranged ( sub 500 km TBM)s and the Arrow for the longer ranged weapons. The S-400 on the other hand can fulfill the role of a mobile Lower Tier ABM system. Secondly, if I understand things correctly, the 8-ER plans to add a Booster to the Barak-8 in order to extend its range? If so, how will this work when it will perform ABM mission in highly populated areas such as large metros or guarding large population centers where you cannot cordon off a large area for the booster to fall off safely?

As mentioned by Aditya all sign indicates that S-400 is not being procured for ABM purpose and primarily for defend against aircraft and cruise missiles' (so primarily 9M96 and 9M96E with maybe a few 40N6). 9M96 is quite similar to Barak-8 in terms of speed (Barak-8 might have faster terminal velocity if reports of mach 4 engagement speed is confirmed) and capability. If in future ABM is tacked on for S-400 that role can be filled by domestic missiles as mentioned above.

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 06 Apr 2018 23:43

Do people not see the emerging Russia-China strategic alliance? At the height of the cold war, would you have bought a crucial system from NATO?

https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/russia- ... -to-china/

Russia has begun delivery of an unknown number of S-400 Triumf advanced interceptor-based Air Defense Systems (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler) to China under a 2014 government-to-government contract, an unnamed source in the Russian military-industrial complex told TASS news agency on January 18.

“The implementation of the contract has begun, the first shipment has been sent to China,” the source said. Russia’s Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation confirmed the beginning of the shipments in January noting that part of the S-400 equipment had been damaged during transport and returned to Russia.

China and Russia concluded a deal for the procurement of four to six S-400 units in November 2014, making Beijing the S-400s first international customer. The contract value is estimated at around $3 billion. The contract specifically precludes technology transfers and licensed production of Russia’s most advanced long-range surface-to-air missile defense system.

If India buys this system, it would be a great betrayal of security.

People need to stop doing Rus Raksha and get a dose of reality. Russia is a $1T economy, it is engaged in an open war with Western powers. China is its natural strategic ally and Russian behavior displays that reality in odles.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Apr 2018 06:17

Wait for THAAD?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Apr 2018 08:28

We have to buy it, else they will sell S-400 to Porkies. Ironically Porkies will get old gen HQ-9s the day we will get first shipments of S-400.

It’s a zero sum game for big boys, but a big loss for us.

Not sure how S-400 will ever integrate with our current BMD, or even national AD network.

Chinmay · Post by **Chinmay** » 07 Apr 2018 10:58

How will they sell it to the Pakis? Pakistan lacks the money to buy those systems, and Russia isnt about to donate S-400s just to spite a paying customer like India.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 07 Apr 2018 11:03

India ready to transfer crucial anti-tank missile technology to private industry

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 07 Apr 2018 11:12

ramana wrote:Wait for THAAD?

Why not collaborate with western countries for THAAD like local solutions? Alliances are the way these confrontations work. What options do we have? We have two irredentist nuclear powers as neighbors.. If we poke the lizard in the SCS, and they decide to up the ante in Arunachal, can we rely on a compromised S400?

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Apr 2018 12:52

sudeepj wrote:Do people not see the emerging Russia-China strategic alliance? At the height of the cold war, would you have bought a crucial system from NATO?

https://thediplomat.com/2018/01/russia- ... -to-china/

Russia has begun delivery of an unknown number of S-400 Triumf advanced interceptor-based Air Defense Systems (NATO reporting name: SA-21 Growler) to China under a 2014 government-to-government contract, an unnamed source in the Russian military-industrial complex told TASS news agency on January 18.

If India buys this system, it would be a great betrayal of security.

People need to stop doing Rus Raksha and get a dose of reality. Russia is a $1T economy, it is engaged in an open war with Western powers. China is its natural strategic ally and Russian behavior displays that reality in odles.

The original request for S 400 made by the IAF to MOD was nearly 2 years ago , much had happened in the regional geopolitical situation after that. Now pakistan has requested the Riussians for SAM systems . Lets see how this pans out . India has been a tested friend time and again for the Russians and single handedly bailed their arms industry out post cold war.

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Apr 2018 12:53

Granted the west have their own interests in continuing the confrontation with Russia , is it really in Russia s interests to go against India as well ?

kit · Post by **kit** » 07 Apr 2018 12:54

Chinmay wrote:How will they sell it to the Pakis? Pakistan lacks the money to buy those systems, and Russia isnt about to donate S-400s just to spite a paying customer like India.

China will reverse engineer and sell it as HQ x

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 07 Apr 2018 13:46

Sid wrote:We have to buy it, else they will sell S-400 to Porkies. Ironically Porkies will get old gen HQ-9s the day we will get first shipments of S-400.

It’s a zero sum game for big boys, but a big loss for us.

Not sure how S-400 will ever integrate with our current BMD, or even national AD network.

When the US denied the pukis a subsidy, they could not even afford F16's and now they have cash to S400?. I think not.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/wor ... 102304.cms

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 07 Apr 2018 15:38

Aditya_V wrote:India ready to transfer crucial anti-tank missile technology to private industry

Time for nagin dance ?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Apr 2018 16:06

Thakur_B wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:India ready to transfer crucial anti-tank missile technology to private industry
Time for nagin dance ?

Let all PIL against private participation in defence production be thrown out first. And all curruption aligataions be disproved first.

Then we can have nagin dance. Until then keep the finger's crossed and do reverse jinx.

John · Post by **John** » 07 Apr 2018 21:18

ramana wrote:Wait for THAAD?

S-400 is being procured to defend against ACs and Cruise missiles not for ABM so THAAD could still be in works even if S-400 are purchased.

ArjunPandit · Post by **ArjunPandit** » 08 Apr 2018 04:00

how do we plan to fund for both S400 and THAAD? and yet have ACs in addition to the 100 AC imports. Assuming we havent started printing Dollars

John · Post by **John** » 08 Apr 2018 06:19

ArjunPandit wrote:how do we plan to fund for both S400 and THAAD? and yet have ACs in addition to the 100 AC imports. Assuming we havent started printing Dollars

It is first worth questioning if there is even funds for S-400 and is it worth it? When role can be filled at a cheaper price by existing systems.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Apr 2018 07:54

there is no 'reverse engineering' of systems as complex as S400. its licensed TOT and manufacturing line setup under supervision of OEM, but the chinese prefer the fig leaf of 'cloning' to boost their domestic H&D levels. a few changes will progressively be made as localization and substitution takes its course so after 10 years it will be something different internally and new missiles of local make might be integrated.

its a waste to go with S400 or Thaad which will gladly kill our present efforts.

for AD - work on localizing the Barak-ER and move ahead on Akash mk2. nothing more is needed if we build significant Tejas nos in parallel.
for CM defence - we need a good local CIWS with a small missile and a gun. maybe a VL-astra at upper end a VL_SRSAM at low end. astra is already on verge of volume production....a small 1st stage dropoff booster might be needed for VL_astra to achieve the range and ceiling goals.

for ABM - develop the PAD, AAD and the promised AD1 & AD2(they do the Thaad thing)

John · Post by **John** » 08 Apr 2018 21:15

for CM defence - we need a good local CIWS with a small missile and a gun. maybe a VL-astra at upper end a VL_SRSAM at low end. astra is already on verge of volume production....a small 1st stage dropoff booster might be needed for VL_astra to achieve the range and ceiling goals.

IMO Sr SAM is more to serve point defense to offer protection of installations against LGB, rockets, drones and short range stand off weapons. Being able to fire on move should allow system to better operate with ground forces as well and replace our existing sa-8s. As you mentioned we still need AAA gun system to complete meant it.

Mr-SAM should be able to fill role of Cruise missile defense quite well because of its network capability it can engage targets beyond horizon from launch platform as long as another radar system tracks it. Interesting how basically it made Babur obsolete and without much fanfare. Akash NG should complement it and allow us cover more areas.

kit · Post by **kit** » 08 Apr 2018 21:33

John wrote:

for CM defence - we need a good local CIWS with a small missile and a gun. maybe a VL-astra at upper end a VL_SRSAM at low end. astra is already on verge of volume production....a small 1st stage dropoff booster might be needed for VL_astra to achieve the range and ceiling goals.

IMO Sr SAM is more to serve point defense to offer protection of installations against LGB, rockets, drones and short range stand off weapons. Being able to fire on move should allow system to better operate with ground forces as well and replace our existing sa-8s. As you mentioned we still need AAA gun system to complete meant it.

Mr-SAM should be able to fill role of Cruise missile defense quite well because of its network capability it can engage targets beyond horizon from launch platform as long as another radar system tracks it. Interesting how basically it made Babur obsolete and without much fanfare. Akash NG should complement it and allow us cover more areas.

CIWS cannot protect population centers against nuclear cruise missiles ., better early warning systems and only Iron dome / Davids sling are the operational systems that can do that with a high degree of efficiency

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 08 Apr 2018 21:36

BARAK-ER is a much better option. The S400 range of 400 kms appears to be the differentiator, but our major urban centers are far apart, not so close that a single S400 battery can provide protection to two or more, so we can realize the cost savings.

John · Post by **John** » 08 Apr 2018 21:42

kit wrote:
John wrote:
IMO Sr SAM is more to serve point defense to offer protection of installations against LGB, rockets, drones and short range stand off weapons. Being able to fire on move should allow system to better operate with ground forces as well and replace our existing sa-8s. As you mentioned we still need AAA gun system to complete meant it.

Mr-SAM should be able to fill role of Cruise missile defense quite well because of its network capability it can engage targets beyond horizon from launch platform as long as another radar system tracks it. Interesting how basically it made Babur obsolete and without much fanfare. Akash NG should complement it and allow us cover more areas.
CIWS cannot protect population centers against nuclear cruise missiles ., better early warning systems and only Iron dome / Davids sling are the operational systems that can do that with a high degree of efficiency

I think you meant to short range ballistic missiles? Barak-8, Akash are all quite capable of intercepting low flying cruise missiles in fact former was designed to counter yakhont ( irony) and I said before it can intercept low flying missiles at long ranges. Against PGM and MRL IMO you better off with AAA gun based system than iron dome because unlike IDF India needs a lot more systems ( more $$$) to protect against such munitions.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 09 Apr 2018 11:32

^^^ fully agree.
For medium or large Drones defense , smooth bore field gun based interceptor will be effective providing large bubble coverage and inexpensive.

Small drones would be addressed by few rounds of AAA gun that is close coupled with optical and/or radar sensor. One could also easily develop a mortar tube fired mini missile-rocket (mass same as mortar shell) made from commercial mechanical parts, electronics and sensors; all the above will kill economic cost benifit that drones enjoy against current countermeasures that are very expensive.

nash · Post by **nash** » 09 Apr 2018 13:34

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/983202636848656385

Saurav Jha
‏ @SJha1618

So, we have DRDO's QRSAM being tested today. Details later.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2018 15:00

>>For medium or large Drones defense , smooth bore field gun based interceptor

can the 76mm oto gun we license make around 8km range iirc be adapted to this role using a small n cheap radar cum thermal of the type found in Tor type self contained AD systems... ? one radar could provide target data to multiple guns.
these could also provide some wide area cruise missile defence if sited properly on overlooking features and not near congested areas where any miss shell that does not auto destruct would cause havoc.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 09 Apr 2018 15:06

I doubt S-400 will be standalone. Reports say India is procuring onlt 2 out of the 4 missiles making up the system. It will probably will have Indian missile component too.

John · Post by **John** » 09 Apr 2018 21:48

JTull wrote:I doubt S-400 will be standalone. Reports say India is procuring onlt 2 out of the 4 missiles making up the system. It will probably will have Indian missile component too.

Highly doubt that considering radars and launch mechanism utilized unlike with Mr-SAM. I don’t even think we can integrate other missile launcher to use S-400 tracking and engagement radar. I believe the reason for limited variety of missiles being procured is to keep costs low.

can the 76mm oto gun we license make around 8km range iirc be adapted to this role using a small n cheap radar cum thermal of the type found in Tor type self contained AD systems... ? one radar could provide target data to multiple guns.

Turrent of oto is heavy and mounting it to any platform will be a challenging , Oto Berada has developed one however. Also it is not cheap by any means, you are talking about that costs as much as a SPG (3-6 million). It is interesting concept but hasn’t got any interest from anyone. Russia is also working 57mm Wheeled anti aircraft gun system.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_ ... 07144.html

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 09 Apr 2018 22:01

John wrote:
Turrent of oto is heavy and mounting it to any platform will be a challenging , Oto Berada has developed one however. Also it is not cheap by any means, you are talking about that costs as much as a SPG (3-6 million). It is interesting concept but hasn’t got any interest from anyone. Russia is also working 57mm Wheeled anti aircraft gun system.

http://www.armyrecognition.com/weapons_ ... 07144.html

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7088&p=2264749#p2264749

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2018 22:30

Folks, V.P. Singh, the then PM asked ACM Mehra (R) what is the defense against nuke strike?

Mehra sahib replied we can try to reduce but can't ensure none gets through.
After that GOI has become very serious about deterrence.
This rogue nuke launch is US fantasy.
Even then they cant ensure nothing gets through.

All TSPA is rogue.

kit · Post by **kit** » 09 Apr 2018 23:05

ramana wrote:Folks, V.P. Singh, the then PM asked ACM Mehra (R) what is the defense against nuke strike?

Mehra sahib replied we can try to reduce but can't ensure none gets through.
After that GOI has become very serious about deterrence.
This rogue nuke launch is US fantasy.
Even then they cant ensure nothing gets through.

All TSPA is rogue.

All the same how does India show its strategic deterrence is not a "bluff" as stratfor has reportedly said ?

Increase in the number of warheads; MIRVs; Tactical warheads? ..or maintain status quo?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2018 23:10

mirv launches using bgrv to the edge of antarctica at night ..... flaming meteors streaking through the night sky in full view cameras sent to record

we have plenty of videos of indian IRBM/ICBM launches...till date I have not seen even one of the DF15 let alone the fabled DF21C carrier killa let alone the king loin the DF31 and DF41 . have you ? post a link if so.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Apr 2018 23:16

typical of the BS thats passed around

big talk of train telar but no real footage just CG. plenty of video of russians doing real shots.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2kjMctT8yU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B1u5O9s4zE - SLV + tochka type munna missile - no real video of the asli maal

nice bieber type song though - enjoy that as a consolation

#weak