Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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Thakur_B
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 13 May 2018 18:24

^^ If it wasn't for bribery scandal, MANTIS would be operational by now in service.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 13 May 2018 22:41

The cancelation of Skyshield joint venture with BEL was big blow it had great potential to not just provide fill in IAF req but also provide IA with a platform for a wheeled Air defense gun system and CIWS for the navy.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby wig » 15 May 2018 08:30

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2018-05-14

India becomes 5th country in world to have fully operational submarine-launched nuclear missile
excerpts
India has a fully operational submarine-launched missile that is capable of carrying a nuclear warhead. As and is the process of developing a similar missile that can be launched from land with a range of about 600 km. The land version will complete the Agni and Prithvi series of indigenously developed nuclear missiles.

The scientists who developed this series of missiles, named BO5, were felicitated at the annual award ceremony of the Defence Research Development Organisation in New Delhi today by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman.


the missile is deployed
The fact that they had been successfully tested from a submarine had, however, had not been publicised.

Top sources also confirmed to India Today that the BO5, the submarine version of the missile, has been successfully tested from a submarine. India has at least one operational nuclear-powered submarine that is capable of launching nuclear weapons. The submarine-launched version of BO5 is now believed to have been deployed as well.
Last edited by wig on 15 May 2018 14:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 15 May 2018 09:49

Lungi dance time

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sum » 15 May 2018 12:17

India has at least one operational nuclear-powered submarine that is capable of launching nuclear weapons.

At least one?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 15 May 2018 12:34

INS Arighat might also be in the water

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 15 May 2018 16:46

It must be the Arihant, not the Arighat which has yet to be formally commissioned.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 15 May 2018 23:08

Who knows?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Haridas » 17 May 2018 19:41

The only sub that can do it is Arihant.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby wig » 17 May 2018 19:55

submarine INS Arihant fully operational with N-tipped K-15 missiles

http://zeenews.india.com/india/indias-n ... 09061.html

excerpts
with Indian Navy's nuclear submarine INS Arihant getting the K-15 Sagarika (B05) nuclear-tipped missiles in its arsenal, the country has joined a select club.

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman made the formal announcement about the same during the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) award ceremony in New Delhi on Monday. Sitharaman felicitated the two scientists A Joseph and M Ugender Reddy, who headed the team that developed the Sagarika nuclear missile and its land-based versions. INS Arihant and its sister submarines will carry the K-15 Sagarika missiles to give India the option of launching a counterattack in the event of a nuclear strike.

The citation of the award presented to Joseph and Reddy read, "It is an indigenous missile with several innovative designs and a unique mechanism. Numerous critical technologies were proved in the successful trials, which paved the way for developing other long-range strategic missiles and has the potential to be launched from submarine, ship, and land."

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby jaysimha » 19 May 2018 11:29

Did DRDO secretly test b05 'Sagarika' slbm recently?

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2018/may/din-18may2018.pdf

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 19 May 2018 12:40

for those with amazon prime, there is a documentary named "submarine" which gives a good view into training mission of a Rubis SSN and look at under construction 1st barracuda class in its DCN yard and design tools like VR .... so much systems are packed in that VR is used to figure out if things are optimally placed, reachable for repair or to work out the fitting sequence during construction...its a real force multiplier and americans use it too.
the machine that bend the steel sheets for the hull works to 1mm precision. the O2 creation system from seawater has to discretely release the H back into the water, while mixing the harvested O2 into the air inside and feeding into a ventilation system that blows air through all chambers at correct mix of temp, humidity, richness. good look at the galley also which is small and how they store and prepare the food. per naval traditions the captains table has silver cutlery even on Rubis and elegant food....very small for a SSN and tightly packed but has impressive range of MFDs for everything. seems to lurk mostly in and around the Med sea. a complex hydraulic system stores the torpedoes/Exocet SM39 under the floor and on sides of the TT room and moves them around.

packing so many high tech and highly redundant systems onto such a packed small space is a huge challenge.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 19 May 2018 14:42

Barracuda is a great example in building medium side SSN for IN to follow that tonnage and other aspect are worth immulating for our SSN program , we need single hull , 5000 T class fast quite ssn with preferable liquid metal reactor for high power density and safety with TT and VLS , crew not exceeding 30 and highly automated system like French have it

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 19 May 2018 21:51

per the film barracuda has less manpower than rubis, which is half its size. however barracuda and astute class lacks the uvls that has become a feature in the big SSNs. sure they can fire tomahawks and naval scalp via torpedo tubes, but after one salvo of 4-6 the TT machinery will take 10 mins to reload (for rubis per the film).... far too long to linger around in hostile waters with roving LRMP and enemy SSNs and asw klubs.... ok for pounding syria and libya not ok against a strong adversary with surveillance capability that will detect the missiles in seconds and gain a rough bearing on the subs position.

hence these can be considered pure anti-sub/anti-ship platform, with only a colonial war capability to launch a token few SLCM and move along.

the virginia/yasen are the full featured bang n olufssen models, with both massive torpedo/ASM loads and UVLS to quickly unload lots of missiles in a melee combat mode and decamp. they can exercise more influence vs land based high value economic and military targets. comes with the baggage of a fairly obese size :D - makes operating in small shallow areas like baltic, barents, Med, SCS, black sea a bit challenging me thinks.

the oscar with kalibr/zircon & ohio conversions are a whole another mode - mayhem on a industrial scale

for us, we have to decide what we are investing for in n-subs. perhaps two use cases are top priority
- sea based deterrence - which the 8-12 tube Arighat types will be enough for .... quiet patrol speed, efficiency, endurance , reliability ...
- anti ship/sub - for this even the Arihant size with 4 x 3 brahmos-2/NG and perhaps 25 weapons in TT room is plenty enough, but maybe a newer reactor with longer lifetime and higher output and top speed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ashthor » 20 May 2018 15:47

Any new on Nirbhay...soon monsoon will arrive and the testing will be halted.


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 21 May 2018 12:51

https://twitter.com/DefenceMinIndia/sta ... 1543352321

Smt @nsitharaman congratulates Team Brahmos & @DRDO_India for successful flight test carried out at 1040 hrs on 21 May 2018 from ITR, Balasore to validate BRAHMOS missile life extension technologies developed for the first time in India.
The successful test will result in huge savings of replacement cost of missiles held in the inventory of Indian Armed Forces.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 21 May 2018 17:06

A 15 yr lifespan is a great achievement.The BMos does not come cheap as well! This will improve capability as less missiles will be retd. each yr. once the first missiles reach their lifespan.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kurup » 21 May 2018 19:20

Experimental flight trial from ITR .... approx range ~ 50 km

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/998559244747091968

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kurup » 21 May 2018 19:21

Missile test from Navy Ship .... approx range ~ 700 km

Interesting trajectory .

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/998554245237374978

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kurup » 21 May 2018 19:22

Todays B'mos test from ITR .... approx range ~ 300 km

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/998553717476548608

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2018 05:12

Ok this is leadership. Kudos to Dr Christopher. Also speaks volumes about our penny pinching babu giri and what scientific community has to face.

https://www.theweek.in/theweek/current/ ... -drdo.html

DRDO had earned bouquets for its missile achievements, but brickbats for other programmes. How did you change it, despite being a non-missile man?

I am from a non-missile background, but, missile is my breadwinner. Our missile programme is indigenous. But, even there, I found that we were going abroad for just one thing called the seeker... [and] falling into the trap of joint programmes.

What is a seeker? It is a radar. It just transmits, receives and identifies [the target]. Except for guidance, a radar does all that a seeker does. So this programme should have been given long ago to LRDE [Electronics and Radar Development Establishment].... Maybe, LRDE thought it was too small a programme for them, and why should they ride piggyback on the missile programme. The missile people might not have shown interest because their core areas are propulsion and navigation, and this was secondary.

I decided to push this little thing. The problem was in testing. It had to be tested on a missile. Who would spare a missile, which costs 030 crore or more, to test a seeker? Finally, I told the users [the armed forces], ‘When you go for a weapon test of a missile, please put my seeker in it.’ Thus, we did it. Now, we have companies that can produce these seekers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 22 May 2018 10:19

BEL has a great reputation making it to AWSTs list.
Would BEL been able to have given an input apart from LRDE?They make a huge list of eqpt. including larger radars.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 22 May 2018 10:52

Karan M wrote:Ok this is leadership. Kudos to Dr Christopher. Also speaks volumes about our penny pinching babu giri and what scientific community has to face.

https://www.theweek.in/theweek/current/ ... -drdo.html


from this news:
The missile programme had been been a success story with the Agnis and Prithvis. But, the tail-end programmes had been languishing.
Akash had been a success even earlier. We put the seeker in Akash, too. Nag is a recent success. It could have been done earlier, but there were problems.... In the development of Nag, we had a problem about differential temperature, which we did not encounter in Akash [which is a surface-to-air missile].
The akash [atmosphere] is cool, and the aircraft is of a higher temperature. So, the radar can pick up the target-aircraft easily. That is not the case with Nag [an anti-tank missile, fired from ground or helicopter]. When [the missile] looks down from the air, it finds the desert is hot, and the tank is also equally hot. So, how does it home in? So, we had to do more tests. I had to develop simulated tanks [for testing]. All this took time. On this, we had issues with the user [Army]. A tank would have different temperatures at different parts. So which to take? Anyway, all these have been resolved. Now they are happy; Nag has been accepted


I am bit confused about the bolded part. Isn't AKASH's guidance completely RF based, radar (obviously) and the new seeker both...? How does cold sky plays role in detection for AKASH...?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shaun » 22 May 2018 11:10

[i]The akash [atmosphere] is cool, and the aircraft is of a higher temperature. So, the radar can pick up the target-aircraft easily[/i

Doest it mean akash have IR seeker ?].

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 22 May 2018 11:45

Classic DDM, nothing more.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 22 May 2018 12:40

JayS wrote:I am bit confused about the bolded part. Isn't AKASH's guidance completely RF based, radar (obviously) and the new seeker both...? How does cold sky plays role in detection for AKASH...?

Akash has CLOS guidance for the initial IAF and IA orders.

For the next set of orders, where IA, also a Spyder user, was evaluating both.

DRDO promised and successfully tested an IR head on Akash to the Army's satisfaction and the repeat orders are given to this version of Akash. With profusion of battlefield EW, this feature is very useful. Its not known whether the seeker is IR or IIR or whether its standalone or works along with Rajendra CLOS guidance. But it was a very fast development to user testing cycle that was successfully completed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 22 May 2018 12:50

tsarkar wrote:
JayS wrote:I am bit confused about the bolded part. Isn't AKASH's guidance completely RF based, radar (obviously) and the new seeker both...? How does cold sky plays role in detection for AKASH...?

Akash has CLOS guidance for the initial IAF and IA orders.

For the next set of orders, where IA, also a Spyder user, was evaluating both.

DRDO promised and successfully tested an IR head on Akash to the Army's satisfaction and the repeat orders are given to this version of Akash. With profusion of battlefield EW, this feature is very useful. Its not known whether the seeker is IR or IIR or whether its standalone or works along with Rajendra CLOS guidance. But it was a very fast development to user testing cycle that was successfully completed.


Thanks for the info Saar. So Akash now has Infra Red seeker of some sort. That's very nice. With onboard IR seeker together with the ground based radar guidance, the Pk would be significantly increased and also the CCM capability.

I presumed the new seeker to be RF seeker for terminal guidance (which perhaps was integrated with ground based radar using two way data link for better Counter measures against jamming).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby mody » 22 May 2018 14:27

Todays Gujarati daily Gujarat Samachar is reporting on its front page, that the Brahmos tested yesterday is capable of 800 Km range. Don't know if it is DDM, that the Brahmos is potentially going to have its range enhanced to 800 Kms or that the modifications have already been carried out to increase the range to upto 800 Kms?

Anyone have any info on this? Range increased to 800 Kms would be simply awesome.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby pankajs » 22 May 2018 15:50

Manu Pubby Verified account @manupubby

Meanwhile, the indigenous Akash surface to air missile program is going ahead full steam.

L&T Defence hands over 1,000 Integrated Propulsion Airframe System hardware to BDL.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kurup » 22 May 2018 18:51

mody wrote:Todays Gujarati daily Gujarat Samachar is reporting on its front page, that the Brahmos tested yesterday is capable of 800 Km range. Don't know if it is DDM, that the Brahmos is potentially going to have its range enhanced to 800 Kms or that the modifications have already been carried out to increase the range to upto 800 Kms?

Anyone have any info on this? Range increased to 800 Kms would be simply awesome.


The missile was tested for 300 kms ,

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/998553717476548608

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 22 May 2018 20:19

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/998929431530954753
Yet another successful #BrahMos test today from ITR. MoD says in today’s launch, major subsystems manufactured under Make in India mission were tested.
Through today's #BeahMos launch, critical indigenous components including fuel management system and other non-metallic airframe components have qualified to form part of the missile, says DG (BrahMos) & CEO @sudhirmishraone

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 22 May 2018 23:03

tsarkar,
So Akash has an IR seeker version already tested. If we see the flow of Dr. Christopher conversation he says the seeker.

Akash had been a success even earlier. We put the seeker in Akash, too. Nag is a recent success. It could have been done earlier, but there were problems.... In the development of Nag, we had a problem about differential temperature, which we did not encounter in Akash [which is a surface-to-air missile].

And then he explains the difficulty in terrestrial target discrimination for the Nag.
All this matches your explanation.


So why would this be needed?
Is it because of ARM environment?
How does it operate?
So detect incoming and feed coordinates to Akash and let it go to seek the target based on IR signature?

This would have multiple possibilities like intercepting hypersonic glide vehicles too based on heat signature.

Please do enlighten us.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 22 May 2018 23:09

Probably to intercept CMs. Radar head might have issue with low flying cruise missile, better off using IIR against CM exhaust.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 22 May 2018 23:24

Can we dig more on this aspect of upgraded Akash IR Seeker?

Is this real or DDMitis.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2018 23:31

Ramana - Dr Christophers interview clears up several things about Akash. I think tsarkar is right on the dot when he says Akash for IA has an IR seeker.

First, take this note:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 936899.cms

NEW DELHI: Surface-to-air missile Akash was successfully test fired on Tuesday with an indigenous radio frequency seeker, an official said.

IMHO, this is the "defence forces testing missiles with an additional seeker DRDO adds"..
This is how DRDO likely proved its seekers.

Note no mention this is IA version of Akash.

Next, this interesting note from Feb 18.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo///pub/news ... feb_18.pdf

Akash Weapon System, already in
service with the IAF, was refurbished
with the IR seeker to the satisfaction
of the user.


As to why would this be required, its a fire and forget missile now, with only range cues from radar or perhaps even not that, if a ground based LRF is integrated with a 30km + range.

Avoids ARMs, avoids triggering RWR when it comes in close. It becomes a far more lethal weapons system.

ramana wrote:tsarkar,
So Akash has an IR seeker version already tested. If we see the flow of Dr. Christopher conversation he says the seeker.

Akash had been a success even earlier. We put the seeker in Akash, too. Nag is a recent success. It could have been done earlier, but there were problems.... In the development of Nag, we had a problem about differential temperature, which we did not encounter in Akash [which is a surface-to-air missile].

And then he explains the difficulty in terrestrial target discrimination for the Nag.
All this matches your explanation.


So why would this be needed?
Is it because of ARM environment?
How does it operate?
So detect incoming and feed coordinates to Akash and let it go to seek the target based on IR signature?

This would have multiple possibilities like intercepting hypersonic glide vehicles too based on heat signature.

Please do enlighten us.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 22 May 2018 23:33

nam wrote:Probably to intercept CMs. Radar head might have issue with low flying cruise missile, better off using IIR against CM exhaust.


Akash can engage low flying targets and has been tested extensively in that regime. That's likely not the real reason, but more about survivability.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 22 May 2018 23:52

Karan M wrote:
nam wrote:Probably to intercept CMs. Radar head might have issue with low flying cruise missile, better off using IIR against CM exhaust.


Akash can engage low flying targets and has been tested extensively in that regime. That's likely not the real reason, but more about survivability.


Doesn't SAM follow a ballistic trajectory when intercepting very low flying CMs? If there was a radar seeker, it would be looking down and could be effected by the ground clutter. IIR probably would have been a better position for such scenario.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 23 May 2018 00:33

I wish there were better pictures, but Akash NG doesn't look to have retained the ducted motor.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 23 May 2018 00:53

Wow. Talk about having an eye for detail. Icing on cake will be if there are new radars as well.


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