Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 23 May 2018 02:16

No indicators on range of NG just yet right?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 May 2018 03:14

KaranM, Thanks. Do we know if the IA Akash are refurbished too?

I think these are for Babur cruise missiles. The IR seeker is very useful for this mission.

If IA has them then they can take out the Nasr rockets too.

I would put the Akash on solid booster and be ready for cruise and glide vehicles

John · Post by **John** » 23 May 2018 04:34

nam wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Akash can engage low flying targets and has been tested extensively in that regime. That's likely not the real reason, but more about survivability.
Doesn't SAM follow a ballistic trajectory when intercepting very low flying CMs? If there was a radar seeker, it would be looking down and could be effected by the ground clutter. IIR probably would have been a better position for such scenario.

Akash follows a direct flight path to the target as it is command guided, fitting a seeker would allow it to fly more optimized flight path ie Ballistic increasing range tremendously. Also ground based radar may lose track of low flying object due to terrain obstruction or elevation, where as seeker based missile flying ballistic approach would have much higher kill rate.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 May 2018 04:43

Karan M wrote:Wow. Talk about having an eye for detail. Icing on cake will be if there are new radars as well.

Thank, Karan, but it is not me. I don't think anybody should care about the center of pictures released by govt. agencies? Who gives a damn to a minister, or head of department cutting a ribbon, passing a momento, lighting a lamp? I always go to the sides of the pictures. When there are no marigold flowerpots, you might find something interesting.

I think they will sport new radars. If that picture is to scale, they seem to have considerably reduced the size of the missile too. Can't see it being more than 3 times the weight of Astra.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 May 2018 04:44

John So IR seeker mode Akash can work in look down and shoot mode due to the ballistic trajectory?

John · Post by **John** » 23 May 2018 04:52

ramana wrote:John So IR seeker mode Akash can work in look down and shoot mode due to the ballistic trajectory?

Need more information I don't think they did any software updates to allow this and this would require much more testing as well. Perhaps for now it will serve as a backup when engagement radar is offline/shut off or losses a low flying object. And be stepping stone to Akash NG.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 23 May 2018 06:31

Sorry to divert from Akash to other topic. Interesting navera warning, based on the shape looks like Nirbhay from a ship :

DTG 221001Z/MAY 18
FROM NAVAREA VIII CO-ORDINATOR TO NAVAREA VIII – 402 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INDIA EAST COAST – OFF BALASORE (.) CHARTS 31 351 3017 3031 INT 71 (.) EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR ON 24, 25 MAY 18 FROM 0430-0830 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 21-22.59N 086-56.31E, 21-21.98N 086-55.86E, 21-07.57N 086-50.51E, 20-50.1N 086-58.56E, 21-58.02N 087-21.91E, 21-27.9N 087-31.14E
2. CANCEL NAVAREA VIII 399 AND THIS MSG 250930 UTC MAY 18

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 23 May 2018 08:52

1000 Akash already!!!!

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 23 May 2018 09:18

Karan M wrote:Ok this is leadership. Kudos to Dr Christopher. Also speaks volumes about our penny pinching babu giri and what scientific community has to face.

https://www.theweek.in/theweek/current/ ... -drdo.html

DRDO had earned bouquets for its missile achievements, but brickbats for other programmes. How did you change it, despite being a non-missile man?

I am from a non-missile background, but, missile is my breadwinner. Our missile programme is indigenous. But, even there, I found that we were going abroad for just one thing called the seeker... [and] falling into the trap of joint programmes.

What is a seeker? It is a radar. It just transmits, receives and identifies [the target]. Except for guidance, a radar does all that a seeker does. So this programme should have been given long ago to LRDE [Electronics and Radar Development Establishment].... Maybe, LRDE thought it was too small a programme for them, and why should they ride piggyback on the missile programme. The missile people might not have shown interest because their core areas are propulsion and navigation, and this was secondary.

I decided to push this little thing. The problem was in testing. It had to be tested on a missile. Who would spare a missile, which costs 030 crore or more, to test a seeker? Finally, I told the users [the armed forces], ‘When you go for a weapon test of a missile, please put my seeker in it.’ Thus, we did it. Now, we have companies that can produce these seekers.

Nice to have Dr Christopher giving interview. He has a big reputation and this would be nice send off party.

To comment on topic in hand, above, he is talking about Astra seeker. Yes talking about development of astra seeker.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 May 2018 09:24

ramana wrote:KaranM, Thanks. Do we know if the IA Akash are refurbished too?

Ramana sir, IMHO that passage is typical desi-English. The refurbish is their way of saying upgrade. They don't mention the user, whether IAF or IA. If its IA, tsarkar's surmise was correct.

I think these are for Babur cruise missiles. The IR seeker is very useful for this mission.

I presume, because the airframe heats up in the low flying mission profile? Akash has also been tested against low flying UAVs and even an Israeli PGM (again, something IAF asked for).

The Akash can easily take on low flying cruise missiles already, but the biggest problem (what I see) is the radar needs to be line of sight with CLOS guidance.

Perhaps, with the IR seeker, getting off board cues, an IR seeker equipped Akash can be used in a plunging profile. Otherwise, it needs a mast mounted radar for maximum line of sight against targets flying 5-10m above the ground for at least the initial cue, work on rejecting ground clutter to the max extent possible (which should be possible, given work on algorithms for airborne radars for instance), and then the seeker and its associated processing.

If IA has them then they can take out the Nasr rockets too.

Its theoretically possible I guess. The Akash profile is 2.8 Mach to 3.5M per reports, the Nasr speed is around the same (100km ranged TBM, burnout velocity is 1M, Nasr is 70km).

I would put the Akash on solid booster and be ready for cruise and glide vehicles

Also fix the radar for greater line of sight, perhaps a new design.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 23 May 2018 09:27

Indranil wrote:
Karan M wrote:Wow. Talk about having an eye for detail. Icing on cake will be if there are new radars as well.
Thank, Karan, but it is not me. I don't think anybody should care about the center of pictures released by govt. agencies? Who gives a damn to a minister, or head of department cutting a ribbon, passing a momento, lighting a lamp? I always go to the sides of the pictures. When there are no marigold flowerpots, you might find something interesting.

I think they will sport new radars. If that picture is to scale, they seem to have considerably reduced the size of the missile too. Can't see it being more than 3 times the weight of Astra.

If we see all these public functions, 90% of the pics are of the dignitaries. Its super frustrating. PIB Aero India or wutever coverage is of 100 people surrounding some minister doing tape cutting from different angles.

Whats your estimate of the Akash NG range?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 23 May 2018 09:37

Indranil wrote:I wish there were better pictures, but Akash NG doesn't look to have retained the ducted motor.

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdjArktU0AEAuXo.jpg

Sorry to pour cold water into this stream.....have you noted the imperfection in Astra pic nearby? With only partial pic & prone to imperfections you want to.....

To compensate for my rude behaviour [of shaking your dream], let me tell a little story.
I don't know I"m right, anyway, It is said that speed of Bhmos NG is 3.5 mach.

Regular Bhmos i.e 300/450 km range w speed as 2.8 mach when upgraded to 800 km Bhmos has a speed of 3.5 mach.

Now, Akash, the new one, too is mentioned in the category of 3.5 mach speed.

All three having mach 3.5. If this doesnt pique your interest dont know what will!

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 23 May 2018 10:03

Akash did indeed had a test with new desi RF seeker recently in Dec 2017. So I was not completely out of my mind after all.

https://swarajyamag.com/insta/india-suc ... ncy-seeker

India on Tuesday successfully test-fired Akash its supersonic surface-to-air missile an with indigenous radio frequency seeker from a test range in Odisha. The supersonic missile is the first surface-to-air missile with indigenous seeker to be test fired and is being inducted into the Army as short range surface to air missile.

This is another article I found which is from 2015. Can't say how reliable it is:

Bangalore Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) sources say that they have moved a proposal to the government on building Mark II of the Akash missiles that will be upgraded by a longer range and sophisticated seeker.

But the new plan includes increasing the range from that level to a point below the level of the recent Indo-Israeli Long Range SAM (LR-SAM). While the DRDO sources were chary about discussing the details of the new proposed Aakash Mark II as “the government’s clearance is awaited,” but they say that the seeker will be based on infra-red imaging (IIR) or microwave based.

This will not only increase the SAMs lethality but it will also help the troops manning these batteries to ‘fire and forget’ kind of a mode. The IIR seeker will pick up the heat signature of the aerial threat and target it while the microwave based one will lock on the offending object through the radar signatures of the object.

So there was a proposal to put seeker in Akash mk2 and it looks like it was cleared and DRDO tested Akash with RF seeker. Was IIR seeker also tested then..?

Karan posted a link which says they do have IR seeker in Akash now.

Akash Weapon System, already in
service with the IAF, was refurbished
with the IR seeker to the satisfaction
of the user. We are now in process of
exporting the system to the friendly
countries.

So we have both RF and IIR seekers in Akash then.

- The IAF version is refurbished with IR seeker.
- The Army version gets the RF seeker.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 23 May 2018 10:08

Could Akash be developed into a naval SAM system too? I know that the B-8 supposedly a JV with Israel but depends hugely upon it, has been earmarked for our principal warships as principal anti-air/missile defence.However, a secondary desi SAM system based upon Akash could be very useful also and probably much cheaper.

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 23 May 2018 10:10

Cybaru wrote:No indicators on range of NG just yet right?

50 km, if you go by this news report.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 23 May 2018 10:33

Philip wrote:Could Akash be developed into a naval SAM system too? I know that the B-8 supposedly a JV with Israel but depends hugely upon it, has been earmarked for our principal warships as principal anti-air/missile defence.However, a secondary desi SAM system based upon Akash could be very useful also and probably much cheaper.

I think Akash will need to shed some serious weight to be able to look attractive the Navy. May be Akash NG..? We have QRSAM also coming up. That could be a better candidate for short range SAM, seating below LRSAM.

John · Post by **John** » 23 May 2018 20:08

Philip wrote:Could Akash be developed into a naval SAM system too? I know that the B-8 supposedly a JV with Israel but depends hugely upon it, has been earmarked for our principal warships as principal anti-air/missile defence.However, a secondary desi SAM system based upon Akash could be very useful also and probably much cheaper.

Not as it stands even Akash NG ( assuming it switches to an active seeker) is not capable of Vertical launch from what I can gather and using arm based launcher for launching missiles is to cumbersome and cannot deal with saturation attacks very well. I mentioned while back navy should fund a navalised AAD and launch them using Brahmos UVLS cells ( perhaps dual pack them).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 May 2018 20:38

Philip wrote:Could Akash be developed into a naval SAM system too? I know that the B-8 supposedly a JV with Israel but depends hugely upon it, has been earmarked for our principal warships as principal anti-air/missile defence.However, a secondary desi SAM system based upon Akash could be very useful also and probably much cheaper.

Philip A naval use weapon has to be designed ab initio with marine environment in mind. All sorts of anti-corrosion measures etc have to be incorporated from design stage.
Having said that IN already has quite a few SAMs in work.
Arms JVs are alliances and not really about arms purchases.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 May 2018 20:41

JayS, Awesome. Akash MkII with dual seeker would be a great cruise missile and TBM killer.
And could even work against glide vehicles.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2018 22:25

what exactly is the unique thing about a VL SAM? does it need some strong structure near the base to "stand up" inside its tube vs resting comfortably with multiple support points and holders from a arm launcher?

the missile used in BUK is about the same as Shtil. in Buk its like akashish but in Shtil it sits inside a rotary magazine.....

arranging for water proofing is a basic requirement for all missile magazines and VL systems...I dont think thats a challenge anymore not when we have experience now with barak1, barak8, and brahmos-klub UVLS silos and doors.

we need to reduce our tribute to Israel and pay more tribute to BEL and BDL imho. Akash NG as a VL - Mica type boxed launcher both for land and naval use could be a good first step.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 May 2018 22:28

we are also getting the VL shtil now, long after the PLAN Type54A started using

replacing all the Shtil arm launcher systems on our older ships as they age out, with VL Akash2 is a good option. that should open up a dozen ships and 100s of missiles. Shtil is a command guided SARH missile with no active onboadar radar .... so even the Akash1 is its analogue and Akash2 with active radar and IIR more flexible.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 23 May 2018 22:42

Kanson wrote:
Indranil wrote:I wish there were better pictures, but Akash NG doesn't look to have retained the ducted motor.

[img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdjArktU0AEAuXo.jpg
Sorry to pour cold water into this stream.....have you noted the imperfection in Astra pic nearby? With only partial pic & prone to imperfections you want to.....

Yes it is speculative. But I have seen other related things which also point to a similar direction. Will wait and see.

Kanson wrote: To compensate for my rude behaviour [of shaking your dream], let me tell a little story.
I don't know I"m right, anyway, It is said that speed of Bhmos NG is 3.5 mach.

Regular Bhmos i.e 300/450 km range w speed as 2.8 mach when upgraded to 800 km Bhmos has a speed of 3.5 mach.

Now, Akash, the new one, too is mentioned in the category of 3.5 mach speed.

All three having mach 3.5. If this doesnt pique your interest dont know what will!

I don't know where you are going with that.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 May 2018 22:53

Singha wrote:we are also getting the VL shtil now, long after the PLAN Type54A started using

replacing all the Shtil arm launcher systems on our older ships as they age out, with VL Akash2 is a good option. that should open up a dozen ships and 100s of missiles. Shtil is a command guided SARH missile with no active onboadar radar .... so even the Akash1 is its analogue and Akash2 with active radar and IIR more flexible.

The newer VL shtil-1 on new 1135.6 class frigate Admiral Essen class has Active Radar Seeker ( new anti-aircraft guided missile 9M317MA ) range increased too more than 60 km

https://bmpd.livejournal.com/2576718.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 May 2018 23:23

Kanson is saying near Hypersonic is within DRDO capability.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 May 2018 00:37

DRDO SAMs will only go from strength to strength, shat shat naman to Kalam sir for Akash, Trishul and BMD program.
May he be reincarnated to protect mother India's children again.
These 3 programs have laid the building blocks for almost all types of SAMs.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 May 2018 00:45

ramana wrote:JayS, Awesome. Akash MkII with dual seeker would be a great cruise missile and TBM killer.
And could even work against glide vehicles.

I hope Christopher sir did a LCA Mk2 on Akash NG and made sure it is a proper replacement for even Barak-8. This 30-50-80 km delineation between Akash-AkashNG-Barak8 makes no sense.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 24 May 2018 02:47

Well i thought one if the advantage of avcommand guidance is to allow bigger warhead because it’s not carrying a seeker/powersupply/computer and cabling. So if they are adding all that weight either the range or warhead weight would have to go down. It is likely that seeker would not be added onto the existing missile but it would come into the next gen missile which would be beefier than SDRE mk1?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 May 2018 03:38

In command guidance the flaw is if an ARM takes out the radar then your missile becomes a dud.
There are two versions of the changed Akash : Akash Upgrade/Refurbished and NG.
NG will have dual seeker.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 24 May 2018 06:05

ramana wrote:In command guidance the flaw is if an ARM takes out the radar then your missile becomes a dud.
There are two versions of the changed Akash : Akash Upgrade/Refurbished and NG.
NG will have dual seeker.

Very hard to jam command guidance tho.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 May 2018 07:01

While discussing the seeker for Akash, we have to remember that one of the first things that was done during Modi's first visit to the US in 2014 was to sign a deal for Honeywell's TALIN system to be integrated with Aakash (and also guided Pinaka). This is being manufactured by TATA SED and is being put on Akash since 2016.

srin · Post by **srin** » 24 May 2018 07:24

ramana wrote:In command guidance the flaw is if an ARM takes out the radar then your missile becomes a dud.
There are two versions of the changed Akash : Akash Upgrade/Refurbished and NG.
NG will have dual seeker.

@Ramana-saar: did I miss news that Akash NG will have dual seeker ? Do you have a source for that ? And I interpret "dual seeker" as active rf seeker + IR seeker. That is news to me. Unless you mean CG + IR or CG + RF.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 24 May 2018 10:25

DRDO brahmos in the news..
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/20 ... ay2018.pdf
Brahmos test successful for 2nd consecutive day

10 things about BrahMos supersonic cruise missile recently test-fired to check 'life extension' technologies

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 24 May 2018 11:15

^ More indegenization of BrahMos.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 24 May 2018 11:25

SSridhar wrote:While discussing the seeker for Akash, we have to remember that one of the first things that was done during Modi's first visit to the US in 2014 was to sign a deal for Honeywell's TALIN system to be integrated with Aakash (and also guided Pinaka). This is being manufactured by TATA SED and is being put on Akash since 2016.

Well, to add to your comment, the TALIN system is for the Akash/Pinaka ground units. The actual missiles themselves use RCI developed Fiber Optic Gyro based nav units. The need for TALIN itself is (I think), a short term thing.
In the past, before we developed our own RLG-INS, we struck a license production deal with SAGEM for the Sigma 95N which is the standard RLG-INS on IAF fighters, all our upgrades and the Su-30 MKI. However, it was clearly too expensive or not suitable for the ground based systems, hence TALIN was chosen, replacing the original French one on the first batch of Pinakas (if my memory serves me right). A delegation supposedly even went to France though for RLG-INS for Brahmos. But in the meantime, DRDO's RLG-INS does seem to have matured. Apart from regular trials of Agni/BMD class missiles, where it is used, some of the Agni variants have gone into production, plus a bulk order was placed for DRDO's RLG-INS for naval platforms. This last bit of information is critical as it clearly shows the units are out of LSP and are being serially produced. Also, it is now being produced in a public-pvt partnership with a pvt firm running the facilities with TOT from RCI. So, to summarize, it is entirely plausible that the next series of Akash/other systems may use an Indian RLG-INS unit rather than a licensed TALIN or Sigma unit.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 24 May 2018 13:48

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/998929431530954753
Yet another successful #BrahMos test today from ITR. MoD says in today’s launch, major subsystems manufactured under Make in India mission were tested.
Through today's #BeahMos launch, critical indigenous components including fuel management system and other non-metallic airframe components have qualified to form part of the missile, says DG (BrahMos) & CEO @sudhirmishraone

Gurus ,can "other non-metallic airframe components" help in increase in range or speed or both? This could be possible reason for claiming higher speed and range?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 May 2018 16:01

>>In command guidance the flaw is if an ARM takes out the radar then your missile becomes a dud.

nowadays loitering drones like harop are also a threat as seen in israel vs syrian AD. radars need to be aware of threats, agile, mobile and shut down when such threats come near. not always possible to fold and move a heavy radar when ARMs will home via GPS onto location of last signal...

has anyone ever managed to put a X-band seeker and IIR sensor onto a SAM, ATBM or AAM ?

my impression is the raytheon/lockheed fabled trimode seekers for JAGM++ are meant for cheap throwaway type missiles and have a laser spot homer, a cheap uncooled IIR sensor(raytheon only) and a mmw radar . these pups are a far cry from the big dogs of the sky.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 May 2018 20:46

vipins wrote:
Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/998929431530954753
Gurus ,can "other non-metallic airframe components" help in increase in range or speed or both? This could be possible reason for claiming higher speed and range?

Unlikely for the speeds that brahmos wprks in. You need change if shape and size.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 May 2018 21:24

srin wrote:
ramana wrote:In command guidance the flaw is if an ARM takes out the radar then your missile becomes a dud.
There are two versions of the changed Akash : Akash Upgrade/Refurbished and NG.
NG will have dual seeker.
@Ramana-saar: did I miss news that Akash NG will have dual seeker ? Do you have a source for that ? And I interpret "dual seeker" as active rf seeker + IR seeker. That is news to me. Unless you mean CG + IR or CG + RF.

I misinterpreted this report;

viewtopic.php?p=2273985#p2273985

Its not dual seeker in classic sense like IIR +Microwave. sorry

Maybe you are right with your insight.

Need to search.
DRDO speaks in cryptic and reporters put there own interpretation.
We need an updated modern description of Akash from DRDO.

Very clearly the Akash is being readied for the cruise missile threat.

That's the big picture.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 May 2018 05:07

https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 8061033472 ---> Handing over of DRDO designed & developed Akash missile 1000th series production propulsion system hardware to BDL by L&T Defence at Coimbatore in presence of Dr S. Christopher Chairman DRDO.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 25 May 2018 11:59

vipins wrote:
Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/writetake/status/998929431530954753
Gurus ,can "other non-metallic airframe components" help in increase in range or speed or both? This could be possible reason for claiming higher speed and range?

The nose cone is non metallic from day one. The fin could be made non metallic but not much rf, or weight benifit.