Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2018 13:41

the meteor has 2 air intakes. the photo posted above has 1 intake.

2 intakes might permit better airflow as the missile banks to turn or climbs / dives at high AoA...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 May 2018 14:32

Not necessarily as the cancelled Khan phoenix replacement had the same layout as followed by the SFDR.

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 May 2018 14:41

Imagine a decade back we were defending our nation using obsolete Pechora and struggling with Akash. Now we have Akash, Astra, LRSAM, S-400 on it's way and testing Ramjet AAM's !

Once we carry out a long flight hypersonic , we would have arrived and will be rubbing shoulders with the big boys. Give another 5 years.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 31 May 2018 15:16

nam wrote:Give another 5 years.

OT, but we all know who needs to be given another 5 years for this to happen. Whether it's going to 'happen' or not is unclear to me.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 31 May 2018 15:46

Singha wrote:the meteor has 2 air intakes. the photo posted above has 1 intake.

2 intakes might permit better airflow as the missile banks to turn or climbs / dives at high AoA...

In the pic that indranil posted, there are two intakes shown clearly in the pic showing the elevated missile, to the right, bunched up in the ventral part of the missile

It is the same config as meteor

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 31 May 2018 17:27

Indranil wrote:
ramana wrote:Indranil if you pair this with a Agni I first stage you will have a ground based hypersonic intercept vehicle. Can handle high or low incoming.

S400 ka baap.
They wont need Agni 1 booster. Something much smaller would do. But, everthibg that i have gleaned point to a completely new two stagr all solid missile.

My next itch is actually to know about AD1 and AD2.

In the department of missiles, India has trully arrived. Astra enabled QRSAM, and now SFDR. How beautiful is that?

Interceptor for what..? ABM or typical SAM..? For ABM applications in exo atm, the KV would need DACS on it and would be bit larger for BVRAAM SFDR based missile, larger/enlarged missile would be needed.

Also, Ducted rocket won't fly hypersonic even if you boost it to hypersonic speed, it wont sustain speed on own power.

But SFDR would be good for QRSAM/SRSAM kind of application. Its maneuverability even in terminal phase at extended range would be very desirable against maneuvering targets like fighters, CMs or UAVs. It would be a more compact missile as compared to dual pulse solid rocket of equal capability.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 31 May 2018 17:29

Singha wrote:the meteor has 2 air intakes. the photo posted above has 1 intake.

2 intakes might permit better airflow as the missile banks to turn or climbs / dives at high AoA...

Two intakes in every picture. You see that black rectangle in the schematic section diagrams inside the secondary combustor..? That's the other intake hidden behind the body. You get optimum performance for 90deg separation between the two intakes.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 May 2018 18:34

JayS wrote:
Indranil wrote: They wont need Agni 1 booster. Something much smaller would do. But, everthibg that i have gleaned point to a completely new two stagr all solid missile.

My next itch is actually to know about AD1 and AD2.

In the department of missiles, India has trully arrived. Astra enabled QRSAM, and now SFDR. How beautiful is that?
Interceptor for what..? ABM or typical SAM..? For ABM applications in exo atm, the KV would need DACS on it and would be bit larger for BVRAAM SFDR based missile, larger/enlarged missile would be needed.

Also, Ducted rocket won't fly hypersonic even if you boost it to hypersonic speed, it wont sustain speed on own power.

But SFDR would be good for QRSAM/SRSAM kind of application. Its maneuverability even in terminal phase at extended range would be very desirable against maneuvering targets like fighters, CMs or UAVs. It would be a more compact missile as compared to dual pulse solid rocket of equal capability.

It cannot be an ABM. I was only replying to Ramana sir’s post. I am not sure of it being used as a SAM either (in India). For the lower end, we have QRSAM. The next step up is akash which is also based on ducted ramjet. So an SFDR based SAM will fall between QRSAM and Akash. I think that gap is too narrow.

May be for exports.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 31 May 2018 18:44

The nozzle of the first stage of QRSAM remains a mystery to me. Can anybody shed more light on it?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 31 May 2018 19:55

Indranil wrote:
JayS wrote:
Interceptor for what..? ABM or typical SAM..? For ABM applications in exo atm, the KV would need DACS on it and would be bit larger for BVRAAM SFDR based missile, larger/enlarged missile would be needed.

Also, Ducted rocket won't fly hypersonic even if you boost it to hypersonic speed, it wont sustain speed on own power.

But SFDR would be good for QRSAM/SRSAM kind of application. Its maneuverability even in terminal phase at extended range would be very desirable against maneuvering targets like fighters, CMs or UAVs. It would be a more compact missile as compared to dual pulse solid rocket of equal capability.
It cannot be an ABM. I was only replying to Ramana sir’s post. I am not sure of it being used as a SAM either (in India). For the lower end, we have QRSAM. The next step up is akash which is also based on ducted ramjet. So an SFDR based SAM will fall between QRSAM and Akash. I think that gap is too narrow.

May be for exports.

I feel, only advantage for SFDR based SAM vis-à-vis Akash would be smaller size and commanality with IAF's BVR pool (if the SAM system can be made to use BVRAAM without modifications in the missiles themselves). But not for now, perhaps only for next gen/cycle of the development.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 31 May 2018 20:08

Is it possible that SFDR might be Akash NG interceptor ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2018 20:18

The tiresome spike atgm import deal is back on to
Meet “urgent needs” despite us having nearly 50,000 milans and konkurs

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 May 2018 20:54

Indranil, Thanks.
JayS, I have my reasons.
I believe the threat India has to worry about is hypersonic glide vehicles.
ABM is already adequate.
To be successful you need a second stage to have throttle able feature.

This SFDR has that.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 31 May 2018 20:55

Thakur_B wrote:Is it possible that SFDR might be Akash NG interceptor ?

Doubt that. It will be a while for SFDR to be matured fully (at least 5yrs I would say). While Akash NG work is already started. They won't keep Akash NG hanging until SFDR is mastered fully.

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 31 May 2018 21:01

ramana wrote:Indranil, Thanks.
JayS, I have my reasons.
I believe the threat India has to worry about is hypersonic glide vehicles.
ABM is already adequate.
To be successful you need a second stage to have throttle able feature.

This SFDR has that.

Need is not under question. Point was for the mean to achieve it. I feel SFDR as it is is not adequate. Something based on that might be.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 May 2018 21:11

Agreed.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 31 May 2018 21:32

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 9923187713

Here's the pic of yesterday's test firing of SFDR released by MoD.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 May 2018 22:03

I see potential for MRSAM as well.as triple pulse missile.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 May 2018 22:19

2 intakes indicate a a2a mission vs 4 on akash

Perhaps our take on the fabled ks172 ulraam for chasing high value targets at long range

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 31 May 2018 22:22

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1002227237876305921

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 31 May 2018 22:33

Indian Army Said To Revive Israeli Spike Missile Purchase Plan

The purchase proposal is at an advanced stage and is awaiting government approval, the person said, without giving any details. They asked not to be identified as the information is not yet public.

The government should come up with a law to file a case of treason on both the person and the publisher for leaking information which is not yet public especially in Defence and National Security

nam · Post by **nam** » 31 May 2018 22:41

Bit OT, is there any image/video of Ramjet AAM being fired specially Russian or Chinese ones?

I am seeing lot of claims of Ramjet AAM, however not been able to find any real firing.

There will lots of heart burn if we managed to fire it before the Chinese did.

We managed to test it just before the monsoon! DRDO can work towards the next launch post monsoon. Else it would have been waste of 3-4 months.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 31 May 2018 23:22

A big congratulations to DRDO for this successful test of the SFDR missile! Will be the precursor to a new generation of indigenous AAMs and SAMs.

chola · Post by **chola** » 31 May 2018 23:33

nam wrote:Bit OT, is there any image/video of Ramjet AAM being fired specially Russian or Chinese ones?

I am seeing lot of claims of Ramjet AAM, however not been able to find any real firing.

There will lots of heart burn if we managed to fire it before the Chinese did.

We managed to test it just before the monsoon! DRDO can work towards the next launch post monsoon. Else it would have been waste of 3-4 months.

https://www.popsci.com/chinas-new-ramje ... e-missiles

This new ramjet engine could triple the range of Chinese missiles
By Jeffrey Lin and P.W. Singer June 12, 2017

In a May 31 report, the Science and Technology Daily announced that the 4th Research Institute of the China Aerospace Science and Technology Corporation (CASC) has twice successfully tested a ramjet engine aimed to power air-to-air missiles. Song Zhongpin, a former PLA Rocket Force expert, told the Global Times that the engine was hypersonic, which suggests a speed of at least Mach 5, or 3,835 miles per hour.

It could be all PRC propanganda BS because I don’t see a video.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 May 2018 23:49

That missile is an AAM, not a SAM by any stretch of imagination. The IAF's quest for AAMs is scorching - SFDR, then Astra for Su-30, iDerby-ER for Tejas Mk1/A, Meteor & MICA for Rafale, MICA for Mirage 2000I and ASRAAM for Jaguar & possibly Hawk.

nam wrote:Bit OT, is there any image/video of Ramjet AAM being fired specially Russian or Chinese ones?

My friend you should ask that question in Russian or Chinese military thread lest this one becomes flooded with long texts and photos of those that I would request others to desist from posting & cluttering here.

From the NDTV link

a person with knowledge of the matter said.

So now DDM sources have moved from serving/retired officers and bureaucrats to anyone from a fanboy to a broker.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 31 May 2018 23:53

Pratyush wrote:I see potential for MRSAM as well.as triple pulse missile.

What is a triple pulse missile?

nam · Post by **nam** » 01 Jun 2018 00:24

tsarkar wrote:That missile is an AAM, not a SAM by any stretch of imagination. The IAF's quest for AAMs is scorching - SFDR, then Astra for Su-30, iDerby-ER for Tejas Mk1/A, Meteor & MICA for Rafale, MICA for Mirage 2000I and ASRAAM for Jaguar & possibly Hawk.

AAM & SAMs are our trump card against China. It is only airpower which can tilt the balance across LAC in favour of Chinis. As long we invest in EW & AAM, we can keep the PLAAF in check.

tsarkar wrote: My friend you should ask that question in Russian or Chinese military thread lest this one becomes flooded with long texts and photos of those that I would request others to desist from posting & cluttering here.

I know, however could not resist some d*** measuring contest. It is not that frequent, that we escape out of the sixth nation syndrome.

Request members to post any information regarding Chini Ramjet AAM on Chini threads.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 01 Jun 2018 00:59

Aakash mk2 (with seeker) came for the 2nd batch of Aakash. No reason an Aakash NG MK2 based on SFDR not to come on board as well after Aakash NG.

Just like so many blocks of SM, we can play the same game. Would show true maturity of DRDO and military for product life cycle management.

dkhare · Post by **dkhare** » 01 Jun 2018 04:19

Wow! Congratulations to DRDO for this huge achievement! This is another giant step towards being truly self-reliant on missile technology by 2022.

Imagine being able to put the following options together:
1. Indigenous active RF seeker (from Astra)
2. Indigenous IR seeker (from Akash 1S)
3. Dual seeker
4. Unidirectional mid-course guidance updates (launch aircraft or buddy) - does Astra have this already?
5. Bidirectional mid-course guidance updates "

Does this tech demonstrator have single or dual intakes? From the schematic and photos, I could only determine a single air intake.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Jun 2018 06:34

tsarkar wrote:
Pratyush wrote:I see potential for MRSAM as well.as triple pulse missile.
What is a triple pulse missile?

Triple pulse implies 3 separate stages of thrust. 1st the solid booster. And 2 from SFDR.

srin · Post by **srin** » 01 Jun 2018 07:13

How is a ramjet powered missile better than a dual pulse rocket powered one ? Compare Akash and LR-SAM, where DRDO developed the propulsion in both cases. LRSAM is almost one-third the weight (275kg vs 720kg), but has three times the range (80km vs 25km) for the same warhead (all wiki specs onlee). I'd have thought that Akash would be lighter since it doesn't have to carry the oxidiser ...

Adding SFDR to the mix, how would it really compare against (as someone mentioned above) a multi-pulse rocket motor ? Would its weight class be LRSAM'ish or Akash'ish ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2018 08:22

They used the solid booster to take it upto the launch speed and height of an aircraft before releasing the missile
In future we will see flight trials without that booster

Meteor is very expensive . If we want ramjet aams for all then this is it

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Jun 2018 11:15

srin wrote:How is a ramjet powered missile better than a dual pulse rocket powered one ? Compare Akash and LR-SAM, where DRDO developed the propulsion in both cases. LRSAM is almost one-third the weight (275kg vs 720kg), but has three times the range (80km vs 25km) for the same warhead (all wiki specs onlee). I'd have thought that Akash would be lighter since it doesn't have to carry the oxidiser ...

Adding SFDR to the mix, how would it really compare against (as someone mentioned above) a multi-pulse rocket motor ? Would its weight class be LRSAM'ish or Akash'ish ?

Novices compare range and weight, the seasoned compare flight profiles. Please don't be a novice!

The jury on the advantages of rocket vs ramjet propulsion is still out. Ramjet gives much higher efficiency, so the missile has much more residual energy for the endgame. Rockets give higher acceleration and not prone to airflow distortions in the intakes. It is generally believed the Meteor is currently the worlds best AAM. Now SFDR has displayed all its characteristics.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Jun 2018 11:28

iNTERVIEW with India's defence research chief Dr S Christopher talks about the country's defence technologies

From Cyber Warfare To Anti-Satellite Weapons, India Has All Capabilities: Defence Research Chief

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 01 Jun 2018 12:27

Kakarat wrote:https://twitter.com/livefist/status/1002227237876305921

SFDR

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 01 Jun 2018 12:44

Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet Propulsion Technology
Project Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) was started in May 2013 with the objective of developing
state-of-the-art SFDR propulsion technology, which can operate at varying altitudes and speeds. The
development and demonstration of SFDR propulsion system is a joint venture of DRDO and Russia.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/DR ... -ebook.pdf

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 01 Jun 2018 13:16

jaysimha wrote:Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet Propulsion Technology
Project Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR) was started in May 2013 with the objective of developing
state-of-the-art SFDR propulsion technology, which can operate at varying altitudes and speeds. The
development and demonstration of SFDR propulsion system is a joint venture of DRDO and Russia.
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/DR ... -ebook.pdf

Nice document. Thanks for sharing. Lot of info. I wonder if we have up to date version of this doc..? The one above is from 2015 or 2016.

jaysimha · Post by **jaysimha** » 01 Jun 2018 13:37

JayS wrote: Nice document. Thanks for sharing. Lot of info. I wonder if we have up to date version of this doc..? The one above is from 2015 or 2016.

welcome..
will post when i get it. It will be my pleasure to share.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Jun 2018 15:36

India Army said to revive Israeli Spike missile purchase plan - Bloomberg

The DRDO has promised to deliver the India-made missile for trials by the end of 2018. Once the trials are successful, the Indian anti-tank missile would go in for mass production by 2021.

Where are the new trials coming from?

The DRDO Magazine, in its November 2016 issue stated that in the final ‘development trials’ on September 28-30, 2016, NAG had hit bull’s eye (target’s turret section or the engine) at the full-range of 4 Kms when fired at the ‘worst time window’ and it was confirmed the Indian Army present on site. On June 13, 2017 DRDO announced another successful full-range (4 Kms) flight trial of Nag in the Jodhpur desert ranges of Rajasthan for the extreme heat weather day conditions of the desert. Nag is now renamed ‘Prospina’. On September, 8-9, 2017, DRDO conducted two successful tests and the DRDO release said, “With these two successful flight trials, and the flight test conducted in June in the peak of summer, the complete functionality of NAG ATGM along with the launcher system NAMICA has been established and marked successful completion of development trials of NAG”. On February 28, 2018, DRDO announced that it had successfully tested the Prospina anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) in top-attack mode using an indigenous MWIR seeker. On 26th April 2018, the Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC), chaired by defence minister Nirmala Sitharaman, gave the go-ahead for the acquisition of around 300 Nag third-generation anti-tank guided missiles and 25 tracked carrier vehicles, “Namica”, together worth Rs 524 crore.

John · Post by **John** » 01 Jun 2018 16:12

srin wrote:How is a ramjet powered missile better than a dual pulse rocket powered one ? Compare Akash and LR-SAM, where DRDO developed the propulsion in both cases. LRSAM is almost one-third the weight (275kg vs 720kg), but has three times the range (80km vs 25km) for the same warhead (all wiki specs onlee). I'd have thought that Akash would be lighter since it doesn't have to carry the oxidiser ...

Adding SFDR to the mix, how would it really compare against (as someone mentioned above) a multi-pulse rocket motor ? Would its weight class be LRSAM'ish or Akash'ish ?

Many reasons but main reason is Akash takes direct flight path to its target where as MR/LR-SAM flies highly optimized flight path. Akash Ramjet engine is also based on older design compare that with Brahmos liquid fueled Ramjet engine which has far higher burn time and speed.