Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 14 Aug 2018 06:09

ramana: All in all, a good time to get old. The deterrence calculations with these HGVs etc are so messed-up compared to those with slow, predictable strategic bombers and ballistic missiles. I guess the first nuke-armed sub-launched cruise missile really ushered in the era of total instability, but this era's speed leaves no room for hope. Face it: if the chinese have it, and they do, then the pakis will also have it. The article has some pakistan about Mach 25 (that is orbital speed).
So Brahmos-2 is Mach 6 scramjet? I still don't see the "hard to detect" part except for terminal-stage aerodynamic maneuvering.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Aug 2018 08:23

Agni-V set to be inducted by December after one more pre-induction test
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... OnM5M.html

Although the non-strategic missile arsenal will be enhanced in the coming years, the officials added, the strategic missile arsenal will be capped for the present with the Agni-V, with no successor or next series on the horizon or even on the drawing board. “It is for the government to decide on the missile platform ranges after considering the strategic environment and global threats,” added another official.

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Aug 2018 09:28

he strategic missile arsenal will be capped for the present with the Agni-V, with no successor or next series on the horizon or even on the drawing board

Really, nothing even on the drawing board?
Find it hard to believe

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 14 Aug 2018 10:08

dinesha wrote:Agni-V set to be inducted by December after one more pre-induction test
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... OnM5M.html
Although the non-strategic missile arsenal will be enhanced in the coming years, the officials added, the strategic missile arsenal will be capped for the present with the Agni-V, with no successor or next series on the horizon or even on the drawing board. “It is for the government to decide on the missile platform ranges after considering the strategic environment and global threats,” added another official.

If the elephant thinks he is a mouse, a mouse he shall remain

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 14 Aug 2018 10:11

That has been the public posturing, even during Agni II we would say something to that effect. Better to show missiles when Testing as that itself opponents 6 years before induction, do you want to be revealed even before that?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Aug 2018 10:28

dinesha wrote:Agni-V set to be inducted by December after one more pre-induction test
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... OnM5M.html
vvvvv
DRDO has already developed radio frequency seeker technology in the past one-and-a-half years and is currently testing this on the Akash surface-to-air missile and the Astra beyond visual range air-to-air missile.
^^^^

mmm... I'd think we need to really consider sensor fusion here rather depending on reflecting object when that is the target. our enemies will be deploying stealth, with absorption and deflection techniques. I'd still consider proximity or fusion.

John · Post by **John** » 14 Aug 2018 17:01

UlanBatori wrote:ramana: All in all, a good time to get old. The deterrence calculations with these HGVs etc are so messed-up compared to those with slow, predictable strategic bombers and ballistic missiles. I guess the first nuke-armed sub-launched cruise missile really ushered in the era of total instability, but this era's speed leaves no room for hope. Face it: if the chinese have it, and they do, then the pakis will also have it. The article has some pakistan about Mach 25 (that is orbital speed).
So Brahmos-2 is Mach 6 scramjet? I still don't see the "hard to detect" part except for terminal-stage aerodynamic maneuvering.

Hard to detect involves features to reduce radar cross section for example brahmos cone intake. It likely uses composite material and coated with radar absorbing material to further reduce its frontal rcs.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 14 Aug 2018 18:11

Alarm bells will ringn in Barad- Dur, the "Dark Tower", and any test beyond a certain threshold will singe the Necromancer's orange wig! I guess our disciples of Chanakya do not want the beam of his eye turned Itowards India, as we're quite happy that his wrath is currently directed to the Ottoman latter-day Sultan , the Czar called Put-it-in and the pestilential Persians. Let's zjietly hake hay while the Nazgul sleep.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 14 Aug 2018 20:42

sum wrote:
he strategic missile arsenal will be capped for the present with the Agni-V, with no successor or next series on the horizon or even on the drawing board
Really, nothing even on the drawing board?
Find it hard to believe

Don't lose hope. My chaiwalla's daamad who is a paanwalla has been consistently telling for last few years that MIRV missile ready for test but awaiting political go ahead for last 7 years.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 14 Aug 2018 22:54

What's the point of more investment in ICBMs I wonder... (but let's not get started on that discussion).

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 15 Aug 2018 09:34

UlanBatori wrote:What's the point of more investment in ICBMs I wonder... (but let's not get started on that discussion).

We already have ICBM(or IRBM if you don't believe a-5 was fired in depressed trajectory) A-6 is for proving MIRV tech which is important to increase survivability of Ballistic missile.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Aug 2018 10:27

^

Not the survival of the missile but the delivery of one or more warhead (s).

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 15 Aug 2018 10:30

UlanBatori wrote:What's the point of more investment in ICBMs I wonder... (but let's not get started on that discussion).

From GoT: Power IS Power.
What's the point of self castration when you have the capability to build your strength. We don't want to end up like Japan.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Aug 2018 10:34

What will be the target of this world conquering ICBM?

MIRV/MARV? Yes but range for what purpose?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 15 Aug 2018 10:47

Yes we should expose our intentions years ahead so that others can cooperate against us. In the past Chinese every body did not give public details but silently developed capabilities.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 15 Aug 2018 10:53

pankajs wrote:What will be the target of this world conquering ICBM?

MIRV/MARV? Yes but range for what purpose?

So you will take a opisometer and calculate the distance between farthest points in India and cheen and cap your missile range at that?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Aug 2018 10:56

^
Absolutely Yes ... for now.

Last I heard A-5 is still in development and GOI/Defense budget is stressed. Has everything that has been planned for A-5 been completed? Have the older missiles, SRBMs and IRBMs, been upgraded with the latest tech? Why not get a version of A-5 on to a submarine? Why not build up our Submarines and SLBM arsenal up to what is needed?

What is this fascination with duck waving contest? Why not focus of the immediate and the important task at hand? Why not get China covered from head to toe under a blanket of missile before we look beyond?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 15 Aug 2018 11:20

^^ it's not duck waving fascination, whatever that means. If you look up, farthest points between India and China is about 7000 km. So your line about "focus on immediate and important task at hand" includes ICBM. Talking about SLBM, any SLBM less than 6000 KM will have very low deterrence. Again, calculate the distance between a point near AP in bay of bengal and Manchuria region. You don't want our boomers to pass through Malacca straits or SEA region because of low range of our SLBMs do you? Your point about budget is all fine and are real world issues, but I don't see why having ICBM range is not a requirement for now as you seem to suggest.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 15 Aug 2018 11:45

A-5 has China completely covered if you believe the Chinese analyst per whom it has a 8K range. Call it an ICBM if that is all it takes to satisfy you. No further range extension is required beyond that ... at present.

So now let us focus on the "immediate and the important" which is
1. Work on MIRV/MARV.
2. Getting SLBM variant of A-5.
3. Sufficient of them on sufficient Submarines along with sufficient land based ones.
4. Required space, etc assets that will provide the monitoring, guidance and targeting data.
5. *I am not sure* but we are a generation behind the latest in propulsion tech. The missile needs to be optimized wrt it payload/range as compared to other missiles in the same weight category. Get that sorted and incorporated into the missile. Will get us extra range and/or payload capacity.

Quite a lot of work from whatever little that I know that will need a fair amount of effort and money.

That should satisfy your range/coverage requirements. Is there any requirement beyond 8K?

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 15 Aug 2018 17:51

Chinese facilities on the Moon: how are we going to deter those?

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 15 Aug 2018 18:13

Depends on what `cap' means. From the article it sounded as though it meant being satisfied with a handful of single warhead A-5's and K-4's. That sort of minimal deterrent will rapidly lose credibility once PRC deploys ABMs (and one has to take into account PRC's ability to mass produce such things).

1. So, even if no further range is required fo land based missiles, MIRVed evolutions of the A-5 are absolutely necessary for a minimum credible deterrent.

2. As for SLBMs, the K-4 should only be see as a stop gap arrangement until we develop a MIRVed SLBM with approx. 8000 km range. This will allow a reasonably large patrol area for an SSBN from which all of PRC can still be targeted. This requirement would be especially pressing once PRC is able to send sufficiently many SSNs into the Bay of Bengal. It would however, take at least 10 years to develop such an SLBM/SSBN combination.

3. As for the article, it looks like the suggested `capping' is a trial baloon floated by some sections of babudom. Hope it is punctured ASAP if that is the case.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 15 Aug 2018 20:51

UlanBatori wrote:Chinese facilities on the Moon: how are we going to deter those?

Don't you know moon can be split into two?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Aug 2018 20:58

ramadas, I think we (BRF) have not really thought through how the different legs of the triad support and reinforce each other.

Having a dispersed highly accurate land based missile force protects the sea based deterrent which is vulnerable due to limited number of fixed bases and vessels.
The airborne is for near abroad while the missile forces are for far away challengers.

And also look at role of hypersonics in this toolbox to all the legs of the triad.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Aug 2018 21:42

ideally SSBNs should be prowl the southern IOR which is the most empty region in the world (barring sub antarctic kerguelen island which the french squat on). the sea is miles deep and no shallows or choke points. cheen has no reach there with LRMP from any side. a sub could disappear for months there.

but a MIRVed range of around 8000-1000km would be needed.

here 4 bulava are salvo fired in 20 seconds

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Aug 2018 22:12

While prowling in Southern IOR, we need some way to communicate with these subs when the needs arise. I don't know if it is possible through land based comms.

It may require satellite based communication, however by the time it has come to go full monty, chances of having any satellite survived, is almost nill.

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Aug 2018 22:16

Has anyone test a full range ICBM? I presume most of the test are going high enough to cover the altitude requirement of ICBM range.

In another 5 years all the big boys would be playing with hypersonic glide weapons, already deployed, where it will be impossible to determine the range. So if we cannot do with ballistic, there is always hypersonic.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 15 Aug 2018 22:21

nam wrote: It may require satellite based communication, however by the time it has come to go full monty, chances of having any satellite survived, is almost nill.

You think china will destroy satellites? But won't that create debris which will in turn destroy chinese and satellites of many other nations? Would china not be concerned about reaction of other countries if their satellites are damaged?

nam · Post by **nam** » 15 Aug 2018 22:24

Trikaal wrote:
nam wrote: It may require satellite based communication, however by the time it has come to go full monty, chances of having any satellite survived, is almost nill.
You think china will destroy satellites? But won't that create debris which will in turn destroy chinese and satellites of many other nations? Would china not be concerned about reaction of other countries if their satellites are damaged?

When nukes are about to fly, would China worry about satellite debris?

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 15 Aug 2018 23:13

^yes, because the benefit from destroying satellites is far less than the damage from letting them stay up. The debris knocks out their own satellites too, making them just as blind. Not to mention the risk of drawing other countries in the war. Countries like US will be looking for any excuse to invade.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Aug 2018 00:44

I think one quick project should be to put the Akash-1S IIR sensor on an shortened Astra motor and make a CCM/WVR missile.

This is doable and retains the skills for the DRDL labs and creates a usable weapon for the IAF and IN.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Aug 2018 00:49

nam wrote:While prowling in Southern IOR, we need some way to communicate with these subs when the needs arise. I don't know if it is possible through land based comms.

It may require satellite based communication, however by the time it has come to go full monty, chances of having any satellite survived, is almost nill.

Low Frequency Radio is one channel of communication for "full monty" situations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely ... unications

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 19 Aug 2018 21:38

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleaseIframePag ... ID=1543360

Indigenously developed Helicopter launched Anti-Tank Guided Missile ‘HELINA’ has been successfully flight tested from Army Helicopter at 1400hrs in the ranges of Pokhran, today. The weapon system has been tested for its full range.The ‘HELINA’ weapon system released smoothly from the launch platform has tracked the target all through its course and hit the target with high precision. Allthe parameters have been monitored by the telemetry stations, tracking systems and the Helicopters.

The Missile is guided by an Infrared Imaging Seeker (IIR) operating in the Lock on Before Launch mode. It is one of the most advanced Anti-Tank Weapons in the world.Senior officials from DRDO and Indian Army were present during the mission.

Raksha Mantri Smt Nirmala Sitharaman congratulated the DRDO and the Indian Army on the successful flight test for further strengthening the defence capabilities of the country.

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 19 Aug 2018 21:43

SAAW also tested recently
https://twitter.com/IndianDefenceRA/sta ... 7555039232

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... 0932718592

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 19 Aug 2018 22:02

Successful Flight Tests of Smart Anti Airfield Weapon - PIB

Indigenously designed and developed guided bombs Smart Anti Airfield Weapon (SAAW) were successfully flight tested from IAF aircraft at Chandan range. The weapon system was integrated with live warhead and has destroyed the targets with high precision. The telemetry and tracking systems captured all the mission events. This weapon is capable of destroying variety of ground targets using precision navigation. A total of three tests with different release conditions were conducted during 16 to 18 August 2018 and all the mission objectives have been achieved.

The weapon has undergone eight developmental trials till date and performance of system for different ranges under multiple launch conditions has been demonstrated. Senior officials from DRDO, HAL and Indian Air Force participated and witnessed the flight tests.

Raksha Mantri Smt Nirmala Sitharaman congratulated the DRDO, IAF and HAL on the successful flight tests for further boosting the defence capabilities of the country.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Aug 2018 02:53

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 0947829760 ---> Kolkata Class destroyer uses hot launch method of firing missiles wherein missile motor is ignited inside it's canister. The exhaust gas is channeled to vent. Cell is designed to be blastproof so a missile exploding in case of malfunction can't affect other missiles.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Aug 2018 02:55

https://twitter.com/indiandefence11/sta ... 9622832128 ---> 7th Mechanized Infantry Battalion Soldiers of Indian Army launch a Javelin Anti Tank Guided Missile at a mock target during Yudh Abhyas Bilateral Military Exercise 2009 at Camp Bundela. Do note a Defense Contractor - probably from Lockheed Martin - sitting there in plain clothes.

My Comment ---> The soldier at the extreme left of the picture is NOT from the Indian Army, but rather the US Army. Only the two soldiers in the middle are from the Indian Army. The camo patterns on their uniforms are a dead giveaway.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 20 Aug 2018 03:04

Tweet from 15 June 2017 (yes 2017). I am seeing this missile for the first time, so very likely it was posted earlier.

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/875344998278938628 ---> DRDO looking at Oct-Nov for first test-firing of New Gen Anti Radiation Missile (NGARM) from IAF Su-30MKI.

sum · Post by **sum** » 20 Aug 2018 05:22

Lungi Dance time!!!!!!!!!!

First home-grown submarine launched, missile operationalised after 2 decades of development

Kept under wraps for several years and inducted in the Navy a couple of months ago, the SLBM, code-named B-05 was secretly test fired back-to-back from indigenously built nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant off Visakhapatnam coast on August 11 and 12.

An official associated with the mission on Sunday told 'The Express' that three rounds of the world-class missile were tested during the first phase user trial and it was a roaring success. While two tests were conducted on August 11, one was put under trial the next day in full operational configuration.

"All three missiles were fired from the submarine positioned nearly 20-meter deep inside the sea, about 10-km off the Vizag coast. It perfectly followed the pre-designated trajectory before zeroing on the target with high accuracy reaching close to zero circular error probability,-" the official confirmed over phone from New Delhi.

Lisa · Post by **Lisa** » 20 Aug 2018 05:34

nam wrote:While prowling in Southern IOR, we need some way to communicate with these subs when the needs arise. I don't know if it is possible through land based comms.

It may require satellite based communication, however by the time it has come to go full monty, chances of having any satellite survived, is almost nill.

Duplicate, Abhik has already said the same so deleted.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 20 Aug 2018 05:50

zero sum game now! the triad realization point - mark the dates.