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Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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shiv
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby shiv » 03 Jul 2017 21:40

That is a canister launch.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby sudhan » 03 Jul 2017 21:48

^^Nice pics!
Looks like we have a different propellant compared to the Astra.. quite a bit of smoke here, compared to the smokeless motor in the Astra..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby ramana » 03 Jul 2017 22:16

What's the warhead weight for QRSAM?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby rohitvats » 03 Jul 2017 22:21

QR SAM is actually what IA wanted from AKASH missile system. For known reasons, AKASH is not as mobile as what Army wanted. QR SAM will see much higher proliferation in IA as compared to AKASH.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Prem Kumar » 03 Jul 2017 22:58

Any technical reason why QRSAM type missiles have to be launched after halting? (Considering that ship & sub launched missiles can be launched from moving/rolling platforms)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2017 00:48

Nitesh wrote:One question why QRSAM is not vertical launch?

By training the cannister, it saves the seconds it takes a VL missile to align after launch. A QR missile is a last ditch effort missile unlike LR and MR, so time is of utmost essence saved by aligning the launcher before launched. Which is why even US RAM missile uses a trainable launcher. Longer ranged missiles like ESSM or Standard or LRSAM use VL.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2017 00:59

Prem Kumar wrote:Any technical reason why QRSAM type missiles have to be launched after halting? (Considering that ship & sub launched missiles can be launched from moving/rolling platforms)

On a ship, the missile, search & track radar, datalink and diesel generators are mounted on the same platform and travel together.

On land they travel on different trucks and trailers.

Typically the diesel generator needs to be connected to radar and command centre via cables to provide power, so all of these need to halt & set themselves up. The missile launcher cannot loiter beyond the datalink range from command centre, so it too halts. Also, cabled datalink to missile launcher for initial cueing is jam and interference proof.

It's called firing from short halts.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Jul 2017 01:18

Prem Kumar wrote:Any technical reason why QRSAM type missiles have to be launched after halting? (Considering that ship & sub launched missiles can be launched from moving/rolling platforms)


The stabilization requirements for a radar & missile system can easily be met with a large ship. Not so much from a small land based platform.
Till date, the Pantsir or variant thereof, is the only system which claims to be able to manage this - moving slowly.
The tanks etc which fire on the move - mostly fire FSAPDS at speed. Guided ATGMs again require careful methodical movement. The stabilization hence needs to be perfect at moment of fire but the guided rounds require perfect orientation between radar, missile, datalinks and own position at all times.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 04 Jul 2017 01:21

The Russians and now even we Indians have multiple radar types, and power sources all integrated on one vehicle. Its not just that, its the requirement to ensure all are in synch at all times. The need for accuracy is very high and all radars, missile launch vehicles need to be in perfect synch with each other to avoid positioning errors and maintaining this on the move is even harder for systems where missile and radar are on different vehicles. If you put them all on one, you compromise with radar and sensor performance and mobility of vehicle.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Prem Kumar » 04 Jul 2017 15:12

Thanks tsarkar & Karan

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Nitesh » 04 Jul 2017 15:46

tsarkar wrote:By training the cannister, it saves the seconds it takes a VL missile to align after launch. A QR missile is a last ditch effort missile unlike LR and MR, so time is of utmost essence saved by aligning the launcher before launched. Which is why even US RAM missile uses a trainable launcher. Longer ranged missiles like ESSM or Standard or LRSAM use VL.

Thanks sir, so we will see a different version for IN, in case it has to be adopted for naval role?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby arun » 04 Jul 2017 17:35

Hi Res Picture (390kb) of the QR SAM launch from PIB:

Clicky

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby srin » 04 Jul 2017 18:14

^^^ Does the Tatra truck in the pic have a left hand drive ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby rohitvats » 04 Jul 2017 18:38

srin wrote:^^^ Does the Tatra truck in the pic have a left hand drive ?


It does. This means it is from imported-but passed off as made by BEML - stock which was part of the earlier scam.

BTW - how come no one noticed TATA POWER SED written on the truck?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby JayS » 04 Jul 2017 18:42

^^ LOL. I completely missed that one.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 04 Jul 2017 19:38

Nitesh wrote:Thanks sir, so we will see a different version for IN, in case it has to be adopted for naval role?

If it takes a QRSAM role, it may have a trainable launcher like SeaRAM. VL launch will require missile modification with TVC fins like Barak-1 and LRSAM. QRSAM doesnt seem to have TVC fins, though prima facie looking at the photo it does seem to have multiple exhaust nozzles like Nag rather than an unitary one.

rohitvats wrote:
srin wrote:^^^ Does the Tatra truck in the pic have a left hand drive ?
It does. This means it is from imported-but passed off as made by BEML - stock which was part of the earlier scam.


Trucks are refurbished and reused too once an older program is completed. Reusing saves the trouble of requesting additional funding and waiting endlessly for approval.

Tata Power SED probably made the launcher and C3 like they did for Akash & Pinaka. Highly unconventional to have a private player's name on a Govt Project, but guess times are changing (for the better).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby srai » 06 Jul 2017 07:56

shiv wrote:That is a canister launch.


Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Santosh » 06 Jul 2017 18:30

Curiosity question - why is it that Nirbhay is seeing so many technical challenges inspite of being subsonic 1000 KM range missile while the more complex hypersonic, 2000 KM range Shaurya is already is production?
Last edited by Santosh on 06 Jul 2017 18:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby srin » 06 Jul 2017 18:36

Santosh wrote:Curiosity question - why is it that Prahaar is seeing so many technical challenges inspite of being subsonic 1000 KM range missile while the more complex hypersonic, 2000 KM range Shaurya is already is production?


Do you mean Nirbhay instead of Prahaar ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Santosh » 06 Jul 2017 18:48

Yes, Nirbhay. Edited above.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby brar_w » 06 Jul 2017 18:58

One is a ballistic missile while the other a cruise missile. Totally different technologies and capabilities that are required to be mastered.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby srai » 06 Jul 2017 19:25

Santosh wrote:Curiosity question - why is it that Nirbhay is seeing so many technical challenges inspite of being subsonic 1000 KM range missile while the more complex hypersonic, 2000 KM range Shaurya is already is production?

How many ballistic missiles DRDO has under its belt?
A: Agni series (I,II,IIA,III,IV and V), Prithivi series (I,II,III etc) and others.

How many subsonic cruise missiles DRDO has under its belt?
A: Zero. Nirbhay is the first. Brahmos JV was an initial step into similar type of missiles but used primarily Russian technology.

Once Nirbhay becomes successful you can expect many more in its series.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Singha » 06 Jul 2017 20:03

generally a history in UAV is a precursor to cruise missile prowress as the control systems and challenges are similar. but in our case we did not have that either. western nations & israel were building prop and jet UAVs from the mid 60s onward.

a co named ryan-teledyne for instance was building jet powered target & recon drones since the 1950s
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryan_Firebee

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby jamwal » 06 Jul 2017 20:13

Serial production of Shaurya started already ? Has it been inducted ? I had no idea

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby ramana » 06 Jul 2017 20:36

While the above posters have commented on one aspect or the other, I think its the DRDO penchant for initiating the most complex missile with out the necessary building blocks that is the root cause. In human terms they set the goal for a baby to run a marathon with the speed of a 100m dash. And the baby has not even begun to crawl. They think this type of grand challenge spurs innovation. While true to an extent it sets up huge disappointment for every stumble.
In addition to this those who have learnt to run the marathon never aid the stragglers by way of program reviews, mentoring what not.
Now come to Nirbhay. Its range of 1500 km shows its not a target China missile. Its numerous warheads ~26 shows its focus is multi-mission. BTW only an idiot boffin with out connection to war usage, will dream up so many warheads. Think of logistic nightmare for a warfighter. Then add the waypoints thing which complicates the navigation and control system. Each of those turns will consume energy and adds lateral accelerations for the turns

Not learning anything from other DRDO programs they launch a missile development and engine development same time. Their absolute weakness is engine design. Didn't learn a thing from Kaveri fiasco. Why don't they sign a tech transfer for the imported engine and ensure they can have a weapon system? Relying on an imported engine they import absolute minimum and no spares. In other words no risk mitigation and total success oriented program. One failure will sink them. They had four. And the sad part is all are in early flight which means later part of NG&C are not proven.
And add to that the lackadaisical milestones. Goes back to my comment about those who learned don't pass on lesson. They should have ordered 10 turbofans for development phase during the design reviews.

DRDO chief says test will be in late August or September. Why not shoot for September and if you beat the date so much the better. The missile will be ready in 2018 or 2019 Again what basis? No more imported engines, All have lead time to buy. Current Manik engine is still a penguin. In such case say 2020 and ensure they meet those milestones. But if he says 2020 press will gang up writing program started in 200x....

So to add to all the above posts said, add DRDO culture of over promise and under deliver.
However if it ever fructifies it will kill the Nasr and other TSPA nuke forces for I think those way points are to look and shoot if they find some thing. And the 1500 km range provides plenty of loiter time .


---
GD, IAF has experience in assembling drones called Chukar from the US. This led DRDO to PTA-7 program and so on.
The engine was a turbojet called PTA7E(?). But never developed a turbofan as they didn't feel a priority. Now this Manik is manic depressant.

Ideally PTA7 should have led to a working short range turbojet based cruise missile. But when Tomahawk is making headlines who wants a short range cruise missile!!!!


Incidentally Chukar comes from Chakor in Sanskrit. A partridge bird.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby ramana » 06 Jul 2017 20:40

brar_w, Shaurya is a hypersonic missile and not just a ballistic missile.

Only now US is thinking of these.

Maybe by 2024 we will see development completed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Santosh » 07 Jul 2017 00:18

IIRC there were reports of Shaurya being guided all the way like a cruise missile. Even wiki calls it "Cruise Missile Hybrid".

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby ramana » 07 Jul 2017 01:12

Because the concept of hypersonic is not yet popular. It gets launched like a ballistic missile and end trajectory is like a hypersonic as it glides down.
Some thing like 51(B)/49(H)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Khalsa » 07 Jul 2017 01:56

negi wrote:Wow looks pretty TFTA it brought back the memories of the Trishul missile :)


Indeed
By the way Wiki says that Trishul is in service with Armed Forces.

Is that True ?
I thought Trishul did not make the cut out of the IGMP stable.
It served as a TD and Lessons Learnt platform.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby brar_w » 07 Jul 2017 02:56

ramana wrote:brar_w, Shaurya is a hypersonic missile and not just a ballistic missile.

Only now US is thinking of these.

Maybe by 2024 we will see development completed.


I don't think the US Army is looking at anything similar. The only program they are looking at is ATACMS replacement for a 499 km max range (to stay within treaty limits) ballistic missile. They won't enter into a non INF compliant weapons program (subsonic, supersonic or hypersonic) as long as they are sticking to it so don't expect anything even remotely similar to the Shaurya from the US Army. Current Hypersonic programs are focused on scramjet and tactical boost glide but those are both air-launched. INF limits the abilities of their ground forces to develop intermediate range fires and the expeditionary warfare puts a limit on size capability and cost of what they can put out there. An SRM based hypersonic weapon is being considered but again, for air launched applications.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby sanjaykumar » 07 Jul 2017 04:45

It was the PTAE-7 (pilotless target aircraft engine)and I believe a British aerospace engineering firm was obliquely hired to work on it for potential CM applications.


Incidentally Chukar comes from Chakor in Sanskrit. A partridge bird.


I believe it is said to subsist on moonbeams.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 09 Jul 2017 22:22

The trail of SAMHO/CLGM for Arjun, helicopters, UAVs and MANPAT has gone cold. Imho the projects was fairly doable and should have been inducted by now.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby ramana » 10 Jul 2017 02:32

Sanjay, Same as many DRDO products

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 10 Jul 2017 04:17

Khalsa wrote:
negi wrote:Wow looks pretty TFTA it brought back the memories of the Trishul missile :)


Indeed
By the way Wiki says that Trishul is in service with Armed Forces.

Is that True ?
I thought Trishul did not make the cut out of the IGMP stable.
It served as a TD and Lessons Learnt platform.


DRDL was in talks with IAF or IA to hand over a few testbeds to them for operational use.
The Trishul finally came good for IA/IAF but by then both services had moved onto seeker equipped programs.

Trishul Navy still had failures with engaging sea skimming targets because of reflection issues of radar from sea surface. This was finally resolved with Akash.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby ramana » 10 Jul 2017 05:09

No way to revive by putting a seeker or Akash technology of Trishul?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Karan M » 10 Jul 2017 05:23

R-sir, QRSAM is pretty much the new breath of Trishul - or so I feel. It may become a tri-service missile.

SRSAM aka Maitri aka French Mica with DRDO radar is all but cancelled. For Navy. So QRSAM may take over until & unless IN insists on VLS missile which might require reengineering or new design.
QRSAM is now going great guns. For IA.
IAF is using Akash as its SRSAM system and will get 1S and NG variants. However, I feel they may take the QRSAM as well because its more mobile, and compact and hence easily deployable, survivable.

Trishul IMHO can be brought back purely as a gapfiller system to take out PGMs and CMs as a cost effective round. It has limitations otherwise being a command line of sight, system and not fire and forget. Also even in the above role, it can only take on a limited number of targets so not ideal

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby srai » 10 Jul 2017 06:25

^^^

IMO, future orders for SRSAM for IA and IAF would be taken over by QRSAM. There are enough production orders for Akash Mk.1 SAM to keep them busy till the time QRSAM will be ready. Akash Mk.1S seems to be an upgrade (or upgradeable) to the ones in service. Akash NG seems to be moving itself into the medium-range territory.

Naval SRSAM requirements are a lot tougher in that it needs to shoot down sea-skimming AShMs. Trishul struggled to fulfill that requirement from what I remember. Probably the naval SAM will be tackled as a JV of sorts.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby vina » 10 Jul 2017 22:10

ramana wrote:Why don't they sign a tech transfer for the imported engine and ensure they can have a weapon system? Relying on an imported engine they import absolute minimum and no spares

Heard somewhere from someone that the imported engine is only interim and that it will get replaced by a local engine that is " done". He seemed very dismissive of the engine thing with the confidence of someone in full control.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby ramana » 11 Jul 2017 00:43

Its that dismissive air that has brought us to the brink so many times.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Postby Kanson » 11 Jul 2017 02:27

Santosh wrote:Curiosity question - why is it that Nirbhay is seeing so many technical challenges inspite of being subsonic 1000 KM range missile while the more complex hypersonic, 2000 KM range Shaurya is already is production?


Nirbhay proj is headed by ADE lab. Relatively inexperienced. Ex Sudharshan proj belongs to them.
To offset that, new CM proj initiated is headed by DRDL & ADE.


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