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Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 26 Nov 2017 07:06

to me from the below it appears Jakarta is the defacto if not the dejure owner of these sea lanes. maybe some treaty obliges them to allow any and all international traffic through these 3 straits.

Image
http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014 ... nesia.html

Indonesian waters have at least six choke points, comprising the Strait of Malacca, the Singapore Strait, the Sunda Strait, the Lombok Strait, the Ombai Strait and the Wetar Strait; all used for international navigation.
...
Indonesia has many obligations pertaining to navigation, such as providing sea-lanes for ships passing through their waters and guaranteeing security and safety. Indonesia needs to ensure that these sea-lanes are navigable, safe, secure and do not endanger the marine environment.
...
The ocean '€œtoll road'€ that president-elect Joko '€œJokowi'€ Widodo has campaigned for, which would connect one port to another within the Indonesian archipelago, should be connected to the three existing international sea lanes. This connectivity will guarantee not only fast, but also the safe and secure flow of goods and services.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 26 Nov 2017 07:07

if a chinese surface fleet truly wants to evade any form of observation by 3rd parties, it really has to sail around australia to india.

submarines I imagine sneak through the sunda and lombok . the aus-usa combine probably has laid sensors south of indonesia just before the deep water begins to pick up russian and cheen subs moving through. hopefully we have too.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 26 Nov 2017 07:21

deleted

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 26 Nov 2017 07:50

P8Is keep track per a recent ish interview.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 26 Nov 2017 12:19

i think any credible naval intelligence outfit will keep an eye of naval bases to see what comes in and what sails out... and then its easier to track. in a war scenario there will be a flotilla which will be easier to track then a single ship.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 26 Nov 2017 12:51

^it is the SSNs and ssgns that are the problems....v. Hard to keep an eye on and can take truly circuitous routes. Hence the need for more mpas. Whatever happened to the mrmpa race?

Ideally a dozen or more p8i lites would be nice along with the sea guardians.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 26 Nov 2017 15:06

deejay wrote:
Austin wrote:
Jet engine makes huge noise how come these targets are not alerted about it ? And Su-34 would have synced all the attack with UAV overhead to film it in real time that would be another effort in itself


Stand Off munitions. Dropped 100/ 50 kms away with guidance can be the only answer.


Hmm yes it will be a good stand off distance so as not to let the grow jihadi know something is in the air , The accuracy is as good as it gets , the rats are getting hunted out even from their holes.

Hope we can test Brahmos Mark-3 model with dive capabilty in syria via the Russians.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sas » 28 Nov 2017 01:23

PROSPINA/NAG

There was a recent bid dated 20/10/2017. Last date for depositing the bid was on 20/11/2017. Bid opening date 21/11/2017.

The bid was for supplying 30 sets of fabricated booster and sustainer casings and other motor sub assemblies along with raw material 15CDV6 steel rod.

Probably PROSPINA/NAG is heading towards user trials by next year. :?: :?: :?:

1) PROPULSION COMPONENTS
Image
Last edited by sas on 28 Nov 2017 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sas » 28 Nov 2017 01:26

PROSPINA/NAG:-Propulsion components specs

1) BOOSTER CASING
Image
^^^^^^^^^
-Nitramine is used as booster grain. Grain geometry is hollow tube with radial burning configuration.
-Casing liner is glass phenol.

NOTE:- Booster is HE-15 2014 series Al alloy, whereas canted nozzle is 15CDV6 low carbon or HSLA steel. After securing the canted nozzles on booster casing lugs they are TIG welded.
Last edited by sas on 28 Nov 2017 11:14, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 28 Nov 2017 02:27

sas wrote:PROSPINA/NAG:-Propulsion components specs


Please do not share such details in an open forum. Reporting post to MODS to decide.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 28 Nov 2017 02:38

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
sas wrote:PROSPINA/NAG:-Propulsion components specs


Please do not share such details in an open forum. Reporting post to MODS to decide.


Relax. its from an open tender.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 28 Nov 2017 03:39

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
sas wrote:PROSPINA/NAG:-Propulsion components specs


Please do not share such details in an open forum. Reporting post to MODS to decide.


Hi Mukesh, thanks for flagging this - mods can and do miss stuff, given the number of threads on the forum. However, in this case, just to ensure your concerns are alleviated, this information is from an open tender as Thakur mentioned, and will be publicly accessible on the internet.

Of course, if you have further concerns please do flag them.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 28 Nov 2017 05:52

sas,

One or two images and the primary highlights are generally enough.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 28 Nov 2017 08:06

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
sas wrote:PROSPINA/NAG:-Propulsion components specs


Please do not share such details in an open forum. Reporting post to MODS to decide.

Let me support Mukesh Kumar here and ask a question.

Can anyone point me to similar detailed design drawings of contemporary missiles from any foreign nation?

I must point out that when we satisfy ourselves that this is an "open tender" we are assuming that the people who put out that tender are not stupid.

But what if they are stupid? I know a lot of very stupid people whose wisdom I mistakenly trusted when I was much younger.

Could these specs be usefully copied in say, Darra Adamkhel to produce jihadi versions of this munition?

I hope this is not a case of:
Are we being stupid?
Oh. No problem. Others are stupid too

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 28 Nov 2017 11:53

Spike anti-tank missile from Israel likely in India's armoury

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/spik ... 97310.html

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 28 Nov 2017 12:45

shiv wrote:
Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Please do not share such details in an open forum. Reporting post to MODS to decide.

Let me support Mukesh Kumar here and ask a question.

Can anyone point me to similar detailed design drawings of contemporary missiles from any foreign nation?

I must point out that when we satisfy ourselves that this is an "open tender" we are assuming that the people who put out that tender are not stupid.

But what if they are stupid? I know a lot of very stupid people whose wisdom I mistakenly trusted when I was much younger.

Could these specs be usefully copied in say, Darra Adamkhel to produce jihadi versions of this munition?

I hope this is not a case of:
Are we being stupid?
Oh. No problem. Others are stupid too

Hakeem,

These specs are carefully vetted before being put out. In many tenders, you will see that the drawings will be made available under NDA or a file which is password protected.

Also it is already OUT before it comes to BR. And it is not scattered either. It is all neatly put together in government of India eprocure website.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 28 Nov 2017 12:48

In this case, for example, Darra Adamkhel will end up building a terribly inefficient rocket: horribly stout and fat. Without the front head and war head, it is a useless rocket.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Mukesh.Kumar » 28 Nov 2017 13:44

Guys still feel uncomfortable. Why pack everything and keep in one place. Let those who search at least do their own research.

Also what do we gain by putting so much detail up here. Its not that we are going to suggest improvements. But I defer to the judgement of the Mods here.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 28 Nov 2017 14:08

Indranil wrote:These specs are carefully vetted before being put out. In many tenders, you will see that the drawings will be made available under NDA or a file which is password protected.

Also it is already OUT before it comes to BR. And it is not scattered either. It is all neatly put together in government of India eprocure website.

This is not about BR. Are those people who are "carefully vetting" this actually doing the right thing? I am not sure. I have stopped trusting people who do unusual stuff and pass it off as normal

I have _never_ever_ seen engineering drawings of any missile as open source information even if it is not a great shakes secret. I would feel happier if anyone could point me to engineering drawings of any contemporary missile from any country in the world.

Are those careful vetters trying to show off their CAD skills? Heck they have even posted the alloys used and the composition of the propellant. This may not be a big secret but for a curious person it is a useful bit of info to work on.

Let me see. I will post those images on Twitter and see what crops up.

What is the source url? I am going to cover my own ass if someone has been phenomenally stupid

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 28 Nov 2017 14:15

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Guys still feel uncomfortable. Why pack everything and keep in one place. Let those who search at least do their own research.

Also what do we gain by putting so much detail up here. Its not that we are going to suggest improvements. But I defer to the judgement of the Mods here.

I have suggested shorter, more succinct posts.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby negi » 28 Nov 2017 14:25

Sidewinder and Javelin line drawings are out there ; are they accurate and reflect the real thing accurately , I do not know . I think too much is being read into these in any case for the state of the art in this space is at a juncture where line drawing of the missile would hardly be telling anything "NEW" to the people in this trade . It's essentially a tube with section for warhead, motor, radar and some actuators for fins that is all there , depending on type of motor there might be some additional detailing but I don't see anything sensitive being put out in open unless some key specifics are being surfaced . No one is showing exact composition of materials or even describing how to make one from a raw material ; these things are too sophisticated to be copied by looking at a schematic of the finished product. For instance there is enough detailing of the F119 on the net for one to look at engine dimensions and stages to get an idea of how many blades per stage might be there to certain level of accuracy however how many can put together an engine in same thrust and weight class ? In fact one can argue that people in this space might be putting some carefully thought out FUD in terms of exaggerating or under reporting performance numbers before publishing to mislead those who try to join the dots .

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 28 Nov 2017 14:28

negi wrote: For instance there is enough detailing of the F119 on the net for one to look at engine dimensions and stages to get an idea of how many blades per stage might be there to certain level of accuracy however how many can put together an engine in same thrust and weight class ?

Measurements and tolerances of blades?

Could you point me to some Sidewinder engineering drawings. I have not seen any. I will search of course. But it would be interesting to save them for future reference to shut myself up.

No one is showing exact composition of materials or even describing how to make one from a raw material ; these things are too sophisticated to be copied by looking at a schematic of the finished product

It is a constant caterwaul on this forum that the Chinese successfully do exactly that

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 28 Nov 2017 14:51


JTull
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JTull » 28 Nov 2017 14:59

Most data is out there. Intelligence is about making sense of it. Let the enemy google themselves. Why hand on a platter by collating it for them.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 28 Nov 2017 15:57

I understand all of your apprehensions. But, believe it or not. these are elementary to rocket building. Even a novice like me can follow.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby negi » 28 Nov 2017 16:00

SRB's grain geometry ; profile of the booster and even lining composition has been in public for decades now you can check up on space dot stackexchange or simply google up on PDF documents on SRB . For instance glass pehnol liner is mostly for ablative cooling I don't think there is anything sensitive there it is how most solid fuel based rocket boosters address problem of heat dissipation .


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sas » 29 Nov 2017 00:59

Apologies for posting such detailed specs.

Indranil sir, yes few highlights should have been enough, will refrain from posting such detailed images.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sas » 29 Nov 2017 01:00

Image

^^^^^HE-15, 15CDV6, Nitramine, Glass phenol and about TIG or A-TIG welding of dissimilar metals, all these key words along with a few images of P vs T curves and booster and sustainer drawings are given in a 22 year old Defence Science Journal paper published by DRDL in 1995. Posted these from a 22 year old journal published by it's developers available in public domain.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 29 Nov 2017 01:14

The Rakshak instinct of Bharat rakshaks can be ridiculously intense at time...... :P

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 29 Nov 2017 02:43

The tendering process is too transparent for its own good. DRDO needs to come up with an approved supplier list and have them bid on the components. Buying missile hardware like tendering tarkari/vegetables for sarkari kitchen is not the best process.

sas, Weren't you going to comment on the SA-2 Guideline engine and its derivatives?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 29 Nov 2017 02:43

JTull wrote:Most data is out there. Intelligence is about making sense of it. Let the enemy google themselves. Why hand on a platter by collating it for them.



That's called compilation.....

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby pravula » 29 Nov 2017 05:27

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Guys still feel uncomfortable. Why pack everything and keep in one place. Let those who search at least do their own research.

Also what do we gain by putting so much detail up here. Its not that we are going to suggest improvements. But I defer to the judgement of the Mods here.


Its trivial to automatically scan, download and create snapshots of most websites. Bots and spiders are a thing.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby viveks » 29 Nov 2017 06:24

I wonder if our great 3 weapon producing countries have ever thought out this particular concept as means for fielding nxt generation era of weapons. I thought of an idea today....why not have an anti ship cruise missile with twin capabilities. One, to impact a target ship from a sea skimming mode and the second, to impact the target ship in a sub-surface mode. Both warheads hitting the target almost simultaneously. During the terminal phase, the sub-surface warhead detaches from the main body and goes below water towards the target. This way, if the sea skimming part gets taken out by the close in weapon system, there will be little time left for the target battle ship to respond to the sub-surface threat.

Just an idea of a weapon. It sounds appealing to me. :D :D :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 29 Nov 2017 06:32

^^^
At those speeds, your missile will shred to pieces when it hits the water :wink:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby viveks » 29 Nov 2017 06:35

Sea skimming cruise missile travel sub-sonic.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prem » 29 Nov 2017 06:57


viveks
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby viveks » 29 Nov 2017 07:53

This is one solid meat grinding machine. Gives me just goose bumps just listening to the video. :D :D :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 29 Nov 2017 08:50

Katare wrote:The Rakshak instinct of Bharat rakshaks can be ridiculously intense at time...... :P

The worry is less about BRF. But whether someone in DRDO is trying to show how much he knows. It is possible that someone wants gora aadmi to admire and think "aah these guys know so much hi funda stuff" I know marginally competent people in academia who are merely showing off about their great knowledge. I am willing to be corrected but I can think of no equivalent system in any country that puts out detailed design diagrams to be seen by the entire world while calling for "tenders"

To me it strikes a jarring note. Such detail is unnecessary even if it is publicly available knowledge to experts in the field.

Recently there was a tender for some airfield construction. There was a call for hangars to be built. I have seen calls for tenders for roads to be laid and bridges to be built. There were no detailed measurements and details. A call for a tender is a general description of the skills needed and the work to be done by interested parties who must respond to get more details about their skills and costs. Throwing detailed design drawings at them is totally unnecessary even if that knowledge is well known.

To most people those drawings will not make sense. To some others - perhaps trained engineers they will appear familiar and they can say "Aah simple stuff no great shakes". But why? Why release all those details? Nowadays a Darra Adamkhel ISI type can 3-d print that stuff and copy other parts and deliver a half working product before DRDO gets its tenders. And we will still sit here and say "Yaaaawn. Simple easypeasy stuff"

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 29 Nov 2017 11:05

Prem wrote:These 2 claim MBDA can integrate Meteor Meteor with MKI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQAGX2lXaTU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD7-hB3xhn4

Was not possible till Astra cam online :wink:


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