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Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 29 Nov 2017 11:42

ramana wrote:The tendering process is too transparent for its own good. DRDO needs to come up with an approved supplier list and have them bid on the components. Buying missile hardware like tendering tarkari/vegetables for sarkari kitchen is not the best process.

sas, Weren't you going to comment on the SA-2 Guideline engine and its derivatives?


They do have a process of vendor registration. You can't be supplier unless you are registered AFAIK.

I agree with Shiv here. It doesn't matter if the drawings are critical or not. They should not release any. That should be categorically banned. Only registered vendors under NDA should be given access. If there is precedence there is every possibility that some critical thing to get released inadvertently. In past I have seen HAL released HTFE25's HPT vane design, with Aerofoil co-ordinates on it..!! I have seen RFI from IA mentioning yahoo email id for communication. These things should be completely banned. No one does it this way, even for trivial things.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 30 Nov 2017 00:09

Shiv,
You have a point and people do reveal information unintentionally more often than it's stolen from them. There is no need for detailed drawings of subsystems being published on the net either.

Yet having drawings of some or even all of the parts does not allow anyone to use them for much. For most products, for instance a Cadillac car or Boing aircraft people have access to real product/ equipment and it is not difficult to use optical scanners to create CAD drawings. Neither is it difficult to do chemical analysis to find out exact alloy composition, yet it is not possible for people to use this information to create a product. The most important part of the IP is the process know how and product test data. Both of these are almost always kept as a trade secrete because the patents can't be enforced at competitors private plants. I would be seriously worried if I start to see this kind of info in the public domain, mechanical drawings etc would not have much impact in my opinion but agree with you in general that why put anything out there if you can help it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kartik » 30 Nov 2017 01:10

IAF test fires air launched Brahmos missile


..

The Indian air force completed software modifications to the Su-30MKI and Hindustan Aeronautics made the required electrical and mechanical changes to the aircraft.

The most difficult modification was optimising the transfer alignment of the inertial sensors, the MOD says. That refers to the tricky process of calibrating the missile’s inertial sensors using data from the aircraft’s guidance systems.

After completing the test firing in the Bay of Bengal, the Indian military claims the Brahmos is now the fastest anti-ship missile ever launched from the air.

“The capability of the missile coupled with the superlative performance of the Su-30 aircraft gives the IAF a strategic reach and allows it to dominate the ocean and the battle fields,” the MOD says.

The 2.5t missile is capable of striking any surface or land target from a standoff range of more than 400km and in any weather, India’s MOD says. The all-weather capability implies a radar seeker for terminal guidance.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby viveks » 30 Nov 2017 01:27

I hope they could also integrate a targeting programming capabilities onto the MKI computer systems for the Brahmos. This would program the missile to head to a target designated by the MKI computer itself instead of a pre-programmed target done before wheels-up.

This would give tremendous ability to the force.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 30 Nov 2017 03:53

Currently, the Brahmos targeting is pre-loaded on the ground.
For on-the-fly retargeting, we would have to develop sensors with the capability to fix targets 300 km away in real-time. Perhaps IAFs new ASTOR type radar business jets. They will have to have some special kit to extract the information, put it in Brahmos FCS format, plus add mission planning information on target & Su-30 route to target and send it to the Su-30. Or Su-30 will have to do the online mission planning in realtime. It is not that easy.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 30 Nov 2017 04:45

Doesn't Spice-2000 work in the same way with up to 100 pre-programmed targets? Works fine for static ground targets.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 30 Nov 2017 04:55

The Spice 2000 AFAIK works similar to the Kh-59 in that it can also auto-lock to a target when approaching it plus have manual guidance to lock onto a target, be released and then do image comparison and hit it.
So, both pre-loaded targets & or on the fly targeting.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 05:59

Karan M wrote:Currently, the Brahmos targeting is pre-loaded on the ground.

How does it target moving ships?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 06:04

Katare wrote:Shiv,
You have a point and people do reveal information unintentionally more often than it's stolen from them. There is no need for detailed drawings of subsystems being published on the net either.

Yet having drawings of some or even all of the parts does not allow anyone to use them for much. For most products, for instance a Cadillac car or Boing aircraft people have access to real product/ equipment and it is not difficult to use optical scanners to create CAD drawings. Neither is it difficult to do chemical analysis to find out exact alloy composition, yet it is not possible for people to use this information to create a product. The most important part of the IP is the process know how and product test data. Both of these are almost always kept as a trade secrete because the patents can't be enforced at competitors private plants. I would be seriously worried if I start to see this kind of info in the public domain, mechanical drawings etc would not have much impact in my opinion but agree with you in general that why put anything out there if you can help it.

Accuracy is one thing. Jugaad is another. A terrorist group with relatively primitive engineering capability will copy and experiment even if 50% of their copies fail.

Nuclear bomb tech is spreading precisely because of that. UAVs and UCAVs are proliferating that way. Just jugaad. Giving hints with detailed engineering drawings is completely unnecessary and naive even iof the whole product is not shown.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 30 Nov 2017 06:25

Inside story: How Brahmos missile got integrated with Sukhoi-30 fighter plane
https://theprint.in/2017/11/29/inside-s ... ter-plane/

By R.K. Tyagi - President, Aeronautical Society of India and former HAL chairman

Image

It was a hot summer forenoon of 1 May 2013 when as chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), I had a strategic discussion with CEO of Brahmos Aerospace, at his office in Kirby Place, New Delhi. During the discussions he enquired whether HAL had the technical capability to integrate the Brahmos missile on to the Air Force’s Su-30 MKI fighters. He also said that Russia had offered to do it at a cost of $200 million (Rs 1,300 crore approx). He was not sure, however, if spending so much would help India gain any technological expertise. Air Marshal Arup Raha, vice-chief of IAF (who later took over as IAF chief in December 2013), told me in another meeting that this integration will be a game changer for the Air Force and 40 Su-30s would need such modifications. Our designers in Nashik went into the details of the challenges involved and a few months later, we confirmed we could do it. There was, however, another challenge. A.S. Pillai, CEO, Brahmos, indicated that he had a budget of only Rs 80 crore for this project and requested HAL to stay within this.

Considering the financial limitation of Brahmos, the HAL board took a historic decision that even if the firm will not make a profit on this task, it will be a good project and should be undertaken in national interest. It was for the first time in the history of HAL that it was decided to absorb the design and development costs, waive the profit element and contingency costs and finalise a technology project for only Rs 80 crore. This showed the positive synergy between IAF and the industry where cost becomes secondary and national pride, competence and technology development comes to the fore. Four years later, on 22 November 2017, a Su-30 MKI took off from Kalaikunda, carrying a 2.5-tonne Brahmos missile for test firing at a target in the Bay of Bengal. In copy book style, the missile struck a target on sea, located 260 km away with a high degree of precision and perfection. We celebrate this success in two ways. First, the integration of Brahmos Air Launch Cruise Missile (ALCM) greatly enhances IAF’s ability to strike heavily defended targets deep into enemy territory, up to a range of 2,100 km (or 3,900 kms with a refueller).

Even if Brahmos is fired from a Su-30 MKI that remains within Indian borders, a wide strike range of 290 km is now available. This will be a paradigm shift for tomorrow’s confrontations with hostile countries. In active wars, the top priority is to destroy strategic enemy locations and defence infrastructure such as nuclear weapon batteries and the air launched Brahmos will provide India these capabilities. Second, the test is a demonstration of how indigenous technical capabilities have been developed in the country. More than 100 Indian companies involving 20,000 specialists, engineers and technicians work on Brahmos manufacturing and technical modifications. Modification of the Su-30 MKI for Brahmos integration involved safe stores separation analysis consisting of wind tunnel and CFD (computational fluid dynamics) analysis. Watertight NMG (numerical master geometry) of the aircraft had to be generated from 2D drawings.

Structural modifications had to be within the aircraft’s centre of gravity (CG) envelope and in such a way that they did not alter vibration characteristics. Carriage and release actuation along with electrical and avionics integration was another challenge. FTI (flight test instrumentation) for the operations along with missile system software modifications also had to be undertaken. All this was done by a consortium of Indian industry led by HAL. Economic prosperity and technology prowess of a country depend on how the scientific and technological community of that country come together on projects of strategic importance. Many other agencies like RCMA, DGAQA, CEMILAC, NAL, AST, SDI, MSQAA, NEUCON, and ZEUSS NUNERIX worked together on this project. The Brahmos integration is just the beginning. The know-how developed on this project should now be leveraged to develop an upgraded Su-30 (Super Su-30) with stronger structures, better avionics and radars and more effective combat capabilities. This can create an impregnable combat cover of at least 1,500 km depth around all Indian borders — at land or on high seas. Brahmos missile has now achieved the challenges of integration into all three versions for land, water and air attacks. I understand that Brahmos Aerospace will now be working on the hypersonic version (5-7 Mach) with an extended range of 600 km.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 30 Nov 2017 07:21

shiv wrote:
Karan M wrote:Currently, the Brahmos targeting is pre-loaded on the ground.

How does it target moving ships?

The test was against a static ship target.

From what I remember, the IAF acquisition of 200 Brahmos-A was for land strike and not for anti-shipping.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 30 Nov 2017 08:27

Very good article by Mr. R.K. Tyagi.

It shows the great technological skill and above all program integration skill.
To achieve what was quoted for Rs 1300 crores from Rs 80 crores and with in 4 years is a super task for which all the entities should be lauded.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Nov 2017 08:42

^indeed a fantastic achievement. I wonder what took them so long to make the decision to integrate the Brahmos with the mki. I've been reading about it since the mid to early 2000s. Integration and ingenuity have never been the problem. Issue lies with horrible and long winded 11 point decision making process methinks.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 30 Nov 2017 08:43

Rakesh wrote:The know-how developed on this project should now be leveraged to develop an upgraded Su-30 (Super Su-30) with stronger structures, better avionics and radars and more effective combat capabilities. This can create an impregnable combat cover of at least 1,500 km depth around all Indian borders — at land or on high seas. Brahmos missile has now achieved the challenges of integration into all three versions for land, water and air attacks. I understand that Brahmos Aerospace will now be working on the hypersonic version (5-7 Mach) with an extended range of 600 km.


Hope they can integrate the hypersonic brahmos with 600 km range with Rafale too would be a revolutionary weapon

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 30 Nov 2017 08:48

srai wrote:
shiv wrote:How does it target moving ships?

The test was against a static ship target.

From what I remember, the IAF acquisition of 200 Brahmos-A was for land strike and not for anti-shipping.

Brahmos-A can also be used against ships. Numerous people including R.K.Tyagi's latest report posted above have told us that it will be used to secure our seas.

Hakeem,
I don't know the complete answer to your question. Here's the little I know. I am sure you can get more info through Google. If you do, please educate me as well.

The signature of the ship is programmed into the Brahmos seeker on ground. Once launched from the aircraft, it is guided to the target using onboard navigation systems. I had read about the navigation aids a long time back and have forgotten. It is one of the differences between the Yakhont and Brahmos. The terminal guidance is using a semi-active RF seeker. The "semi-active" means that it turns on, scans, and turns off immediately. This makes jamming the missile more difficult.

Although the missile can be used in the fire and forget method described above, a semi-active link can also be maintained with the aircraft. This link can be used to provide updates from the aircraft. I don't know the nature of these updates, but I know for sure that it can be used to command or change the distance from the target when the dive should be initiated. I can't imagine why updated coordinates of the ship cannot be passed.

Finally, there are Russians anti-ship missiles which have the ability to communicate with each other and "attack in packs". This capability has never been acknowledged on the Yakhont/Brahmos.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shaun » 30 Nov 2017 08:48

srai wrote:
shiv wrote:How does it target moving ships?

The test was against a static ship target.

From what I remember, the IAF acquisition of 200 Brahmos-A was for land strike and not for anti-shipping.


Not all tests were on static ships , Brahmos with its mid course guidance and terminal seeker should have the ability to engage moving target , what we don't know whether we have the capability for continuous target accusation through other assets and feeding the same to the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 30 Nov 2017 09:05

Cain Marko wrote:^indeed a fantastic achievement. I wonder what took them so long to make the decision to integrate the Brahmos with the mki. I've been reading about it since the mid to early 2000s. Integration and ingenuity have never been the problem. Issue lies with horrible and long winded 11 point decision making process methinks.


1. They tried to convince the Russians for a long time. I was talking to some friends about the experience of modifying the MKIs. The less I can speak of the Russian support here, the better. HAL is trying to understand the aircraft by reverse engineering. They have to first understand the math and physics behind why the Russians engineered something in a particular way. Then they have to modify. Then they have to recheck that the modifications will work.

2. But at least the Russians come to the table, the Americans and Europeans don't even do that. Many Europeans look down upon us SDREs. The French said HAL cannot absorb its technologies, Reliance can :roll: . On the LUH, they charged something so ridiculous for modifying the transmission that HAL could not afford it. It went to develop it inhouse setting back the project by 2-3 years. The French openly told the Australians, the Indians can't get what the Australians can. We need to get disillusioned of foreign help/ToT.

3. Funding: We can only spare 80 crores (12.5 Million) for this immensely important project. In contrast, we suddenly have money to import 126 single engined fighters. At the very least, the acquisition cost of the same is going to be around $20 billion. The difference, a cool 1600 times!

4. We keep harping private sector-private sector. Which private sector company would have done this? If we can't make our desi deals lucrative, the private sector can and will never come in.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 09:07

shaun wrote:
srai wrote:The test was against a static ship target.

From what I remember, the IAF acquisition of 200 Brahmos-A was for land strike and not for anti-shipping.


Not all tests were on static ships , Brahmos with its mid course guidance and terminal seeker should have the ability to engage moving target , what we don't know whether we have the capability for continuous target accusation through other assets and feeding the same to the missile.

Precisely the answer I was looking for. The question to me is - if someone can communicate with the Brahmos after launch for "mid course guidance" where did the idea appear that the mother ship (or someone else) cannot communicate with the Brahmos before launch. I expect that the coordinates of a moving ship cannot be fed in on the ground before the aircraft takes off.

This is in the light of this statement:
Currently, the Brahmos targeting is pre-loaded on the ground.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Nov 2017 09:13

.
Indranil wrote:[
1. They tried to convince the Russians for a long time. I was talking to some friends about the experience of modifying the MKIs. The less I can speak of the Russian support here, the better. HAL is trying to understand the aircraft by reverse engineering. They have to first understand the math and physics behind why the Russians engineered something in a particular way. Then they have to modify. Then they have to recheck that the modifications will work.

2. But at least the Russians come to the table, the Americans and Europeans don't even do that. Many Europeans look down upon us SDREs. The French said HAL cannot absorb its technologies, Reliance can :roll: . On the LUH, they charged something so ridiculous for modifying the transmission that HAL could not afford it. It went to develop it inhouse setting back the project by 2-3 years. The French openly told the Australians, the Indians can't get what the Australians can. We need to get disillusioned of foreign help/ToT.

3. Funding: We can only spare 80 crores (12.5 Million) for this immensely important project. In contrast, we suddenly have money to import 126 single engined fighters. At the very least, the acquisition cost of the same is going to be around $20 billion. The difference, a cool 1600 times!

4. We keep harping private sector-private sector. Which private sector company would have done this? If we can't make our desi deals lucrative, the private sector can and will never come in.


Hmm I suspected some perfidy from phoren oems. But I wouldn't be surprised if the decision makers in the mod were also sitting with their thumbs up their ****.

+100 about the funding.... That pathetic amount really is aggravating for a project of such significance. Chutiyas responsible for such decisions are the real mirjaffers
Last edited by Cain Marko on 30 Nov 2017 11:10, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 30 Nov 2017 10:11

Indranil wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:^indeed a fantastic achievement. I wonder what took them so long to make the decision to integrate the Brahmos with the mki. I've been reading about it since the mid to early 2000s. Integration and ingenuity have never been the problem. Issue lies with horrible and long winded 11 point decision making process methinks.


1. They tried to convince the Russians for a long time. I was talking to some friends about the experience of modifying the MKIs. The less I can speak of the Russian support here, the better. HAL is trying to understand the aircraft by reverse engineering. They have to first understand the math and physics behind why the Russians engineered something in a particular way. Then they have to modify. Then they have to recheck that the modifications will work.

2. But at least the Russians come to the table, the Americans and Europeans don't even do that. Many Europeans look down upon us SDREs. The French said HAL cannot absorb its technologies, Reliance can :roll: . On the LUH, they charged something so ridiculous for modifying the transmission that HAL could not afford it. It went to develop it inhouse setting back the project by 2-3 years. The French openly told the Australians, the Indians can't get what the Australians can. We need to get disillusioned of foreign help/ToT.

3. Funding: We can only spare 80 crores (12.5 Million) for this immensely important project. In contrast, we suddenly have money to import 126 single engined fighters. At the very least, the acquisition cost of the same is going to be around $20 billion. The difference, a cool 1600 times!

4. We keep harping private sector-private sector. Which private sector company would have done this? If we can't make our desi deals lucrative, the private sector can and will never come in.


You have reflected every thought that came to my mind while reading Dr Tyagi's article. I would have said almost exactly the same pointers if you hadnt already put them down. So I couldnt agree more.

Being a professional, I can say with full confidence that this work is not only world class, but its world beater for the amount of work needed without real support from OEM and the time. And the cost, reallh no one could have done it in that cost. Best example of Frugal Indian Engineering.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 30 Nov 2017 10:16

shiv wrote:
shaun wrote:Not all tests were on static ships , Brahmos with its mid course guidance and terminal seeker should have the ability to engage moving target , what we don't know whether we have the capability for continuous target accusation through other assets and feeding the same to the missile.

Precisely the answer I was looking for. The question to me is - if someone can communicate with the Brahmos after launch for "mid course guidance" where did the idea appear that the mother ship (or someone else) cannot communicate with the Brahmos before launch. I expect that the coordinates of a moving ship cannot be fed in on the ground before the aircraft takes off.

This is in the light of this statement:
Currently, the Brahmos targeting is pre-loaded on the ground.


BrahMos in fed initial target coordinates at launch. If it flies high-lo profile, then just before going lo, it activates its seeker briefly to refresh target coordinates. If it flies lo-lo profile, it does a brief pop up manoeuver for the same purpose.

It has no datalink for mid course updates from anywhere. Not required since the missile is travelling at Mach 3 and in the very little time it takes to move 300 km, the target ship even at 30 knots won't have moved very far in any direction.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 30 Nov 2017 11:00

What could an MKI carry that will let it obtain targetting information on its own for a 450-600km range?
It could get information from some other source via a data-link though. AWACS, satellite or UAV or an IN vessel that is tracking an enemy ship.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 30 Nov 2017 11:04

Tsarkar sahab,

That is a one-way datalink, isn't it? I know the communication is a very short burst which can virtually not be jammed. Also, thank you for the tid-bit on the pop up on the lo-lo. I did not know that. I knew that the coordinates for the dive are set just before launch. Can it be changed after launch? For example, can it be delayed in a hi-lo config, i.e. just before the final target coordinates are sent before the dive, ask the missile to delay the dive by 2 seconds?

P.S. I don't know why anybody will ask the missile to delay the dive though :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Nov 2017 11:07

Prasad wrote:What could an MKI carry that will let it obtain targetting information on its own for a 450-600km range?
It could get information from some other source via a data-link though. AWACS, satellite or UAV or an IN vessel that is tracking an enemy ship.

A big fcr like irbis can detect a 3msq Target at 400km head on. It might be able to do a large ship at similar or higher ranges. They were actually thinking of hooking up the irbis on backfires for attack at v. Long ranges. Was too expensive. Wouldlnt be surprised if a high powered aesa of that size can. But the bars up grade or super mki upgrade could easily see such a capability.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 30 Nov 2017 11:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Nov 2017 11:09

Indranil wrote:Tsarkar sahab,

That is a one-way datalink, isn't it? I know the communication is a very short burst which can virtually not be jammed. Also, thank you for the tid-bit on the pop up on the lo-lo. I did not know that. I knew that the coordinates for the dive are set just before launch. Can it be changed after launch? For example, can it be delayed in a hi-lo config, i.e. just before the final target coordinates are sent before the dive, ask the missile to delay the dive by 2 seconds?

P.S. I don't know why anybody will ask the missile to delay the dive though :D


The pop up maneuver is classic russki solution and similar to the much larger granit it seems like

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 30 Nov 2017 11:38

Indranil wrote:Tsarkar sahab,

That is a one-way datalink, isn't it? I know the communication is a very short burst which can virtually not be jammed. Also, thank you for the tid-bit on the pop up on the lo-lo. I did not know that. I knew that the coordinates for the dive are set just before launch. Can it be changed after launch? For example, can it be delayed in a hi-lo config, i.e. just before the final target coordinates are sent before the dive, ask the missile to delay the dive by 2 seconds?

P.S. I don't know why anybody will ask the missile to delay the dive though :D

No, it uses its active seeker in chirp mode during the pop up. No datalink. The datalink was dropped during design phase. Also, coordinates cannot be changed for the same reason - Too short flight time.

BrahMos covers 300 km in 5 minutes.

In 5 minutes, a ship at 30 knots can cover 2.5 nm or 4.63 km in any direction. The BrahMos seeker has a range of 40 km and can easily track the 5 km delta in any direction during pop up

Hence no need for a datalink

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Manish_P » 30 Nov 2017 11:58

Indranil wrote:
3. Funding: We can only spare 80 crores (12.5 Million) for this immensely important project. In contrast, we suddenly have money to import 126 single engined fighters. At the very least, the acquisition cost of the same is going to be around $20 billion. The difference, a cool 1600 times!


Indranil Ji, at least the SEF is for the IAF.. what would you say about the Rs 3,546 crores deal for the 12 AW101 Helicopters for the VVIPs

(did we recover the money?)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 12:10

tsarkar wrote:It has no datalink for mid course updates from anywhere. Not required since the missile is travelling at Mach 3 and in the very little time it takes to move 300 km, the target ship even at 30 knots won't have moved very far in any direction.

If 3 to 4 ships are loosely grouped around a capital ship which one will tbe Brahmos hit?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 30 Nov 2017 12:28

tsarkar wrote:
Indranil wrote:Tsarkar sahab,

That is a one-way datalink, isn't it? I know the communication is a very short burst which can virtually not be jammed. Also, thank you for the tid-bit on the pop up on the lo-lo. I did not know that. I knew that the coordinates for the dive are set just before launch. Can it be changed after launch? For example, can it be delayed in a hi-lo config, i.e. just before the final target coordinates are sent before the dive, ask the missile to delay the dive by 2 seconds?

P.S. I don't know why anybody will ask the missile to delay the dive though :D

No, it uses its active seeker in chirp mode during the pop up. No datalink. The datalink was dropped during design phase. Also, coordinates cannot be changed for the same reason - Too short flight time.

BrahMos covers 300 km in 5 minutes.

In 5 minutes, a ship at 30 knots can cover 2.5 nm or 4.63 km in any direction. The BrahMos seeker has a range of 40 km and can easily track the 5 km delta in any direction during pop up

Hence no need for a datalink

Got it. Makes sense.

shiv wrote:
tsarkar wrote:It has no datalink for mid course updates from anywhere. Not required since the missile is travelling at Mach 3 and in the very little time it takes to move 300 km, the target ship even at 30 knots won't have moved very far in any direction.

If 3 to 4 ships are loosely grouped around a capital ship which one will tbe Brahmos hit?

The signature of the ship that has been fed into the Brahmos. The signature of the capital ship will be different. If there are two ships with very close signatures there can be mischaracterization. But, it will be one of the two capital ships.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 30 Nov 2017 14:01

^^^
AShM are programmed to go for the biggest signature -- largest ship -- if they have multiple targets to chose from.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 30 Nov 2017 14:09

good question... 3 or 4 ships ..which one..hmmm... the one with bad karma !! i think which ever gives best echo/signal to the seeker? or the closest one...

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 30 Nov 2017 14:44

srai wrote:^^^
AShM are programmed to go for the biggest signature -- largest ship -- if they have multiple targets to chose from.

Any reliable source for this information? I cannot recall having read or heard this anywhere. In fact this would make spoofing easier by enhancing the signature of smaller ships - whatever this "signature" is supposed to be.

The idea that it will simply go and hit the largest visible ship makes it a fairly dumb missile. I am not at all sure that this is true.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 30 Nov 2017 15:33

^^^
I'm sure you find it on Google ;)

In any case, I read about it a long while ago. Can't quite remember the context. Maybe one of those Tom Clancy books :)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 30 Nov 2017 15:41

No. The seeker is much more sophisticated than that.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shaun » 30 Nov 2017 15:56

so we can all discard "wolf pack tactics" & accept range limited to 300km .

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 30 Nov 2017 16:28

Indranil wrote:No. The seeker is much more sophisticated than that.

True. Seeker of nowadays would be a lot more sophisticated.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 30 Nov 2017 17:24

shiv wrote:
shaun wrote:
Not all tests were on static ships , Brahmos with its mid course guidance and terminal seeker should have the ability to engage moving target , what we don't know whether we have the capability for continuous target accusation through other assets and feeding the same to the missile.

Precisely the answer I was looking for. The question to me is - if someone can communicate with the Brahmos after launch for "mid course guidance" where did the idea appear that the mother ship (or someone else) cannot communicate with the Brahmos before launch. I expect that the coordinates of a moving ship cannot be fed in on the ground before the aircraft takes off.

This is in the light of this statement:
Currently, the Brahmos targeting is pre-loaded on the ground.


I think this is particularly relevant to ground targets located in heavily defended areas. You have a very valid point that ships move after all.
The above applies for heavily defended ground targets, the Brahmos cannot simply "fly" to the target, unlike where over the sea, it can conduct maneuvers at low level but does not have to worry about telephone poles or buildings coming in the way.

So for ground targets, the Brahmos has to be fed a cocktail of mission planning data, not just target information which has to be very precise. The same can be expected of complex naval targets with overlapping zones of protection
However, for other naval targets, I do presume the Brahmos also can be launched in a mode wherein it auto executes some predefined maneuvers but without the the level of detailed mission planning which would have been done on the ground. The missile flies to a certain location, opens its seeker at x km, again skims down to 5-10 meters and continues its attack run.

Coming to midcourse guidance, my understanding is the current Brahmos is a fire and forget weapon. Indranil may correct me if he has more accurate data, but my back of the envelope calculations above show that for a 300 km ranged weapon, you simply don't need midcourse guidance since even a ship moves some 8 km in the time the Brahmos reaches it, and its onboard seeker should be able to locate a target even so, especially if its target characteristics are preprogrammed and it selects the one it wants to attack on that basis (the oft mentioned SCAN seeker upgrade).

However, for ranges above 300 km, say 800 odd and all being mentioned nowadays, fitting in a datalink is definitely necessary. The larger flight time would mean targets can move.

Alternatively, we do know the 290 km Brahmos really has a range of 120 km in a lo-lo-lo profile. However, a 800 km range could hence mean the Brahmos can achieve around 331 km in a low flying, very hard to detect profile over the sea. Over the land mission planning before hand is definitely required.

But what I mean is midcourse guidance here, would be good to have and not essential.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 30 Nov 2017 17:30

Read Tsarkar sahab's replies. He is right. I read up long time back and got a few things a little mixed up. What he says sits well with everything I know.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 30 Nov 2017 17:44

Ah, I see Tsarkar has the same points. Great to have confirmation.

Regarding seeker, the Brahmos seeker is very sophisticated. Its original version:

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Cruise-Missiles.html
The OKB-52 3K-55/3M-55 Yakhont (SS-N-26) is like the Moskit a complete family of supersonic rocket-ramjet missiles. Ship, submarine, air and ground launched variants exist. The missile weighs 3 tonnes at launch, and uses a liquid propellant for the ramjet which propels it at speeds between Mach 2.0 and 2.5. The Yakhont typically cruises to the target area at high altitude, and then descends for a sea skimming attack from under the horizon. The distance at which it begins its descent can be programmed before launch, this determining the achievable range which is between 65 and 160 nautical miles, all variants use the KTRV-Detal K313 radar altimeter, which operates at altitudes between 1 metre and 5,000 metres. (Also refer Tsarev V., Melnikov V., 'Yakhont - New Generation Antiship Missile', Military Parade, Exclusives, 2000.).

The Granit-Elektron seeker for the Yakhont family of missiles is one of the most sophisticated Russian digital designs seen to date. The manufacturer describes the monopulse seeker as providing a dual mode active and passive anti-radiation homing capability. In active mode the seeker provides a wideband frequency agile waveform with a pseudorandomly varied spread spectrum modulation. The design is claimed to be resistant to chaff and a number of angle/range deception jamming techniques. The seeker can acquire and track targets in sea states up to 7.


So as you can see, it can't be jammed easily and second, just spoofing it with noise will activate the home on jam mode (passive anti-radiation homing capability).

India then added a SCAN capability to the missile, which basically allows for imaging the target.

Our indigenous seekers in development also note:
Data Patterns has developed a High performance imaging and monopulse Radar for seeker applications. This is optimized for Land & Sea targets and has X-Band SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) based imaging capability. A range of Electro-Optical Seekers are under development.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Zynda » 30 Nov 2017 17:49

Karan, does Astra posses Home on Jam capability?


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