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Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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Philip
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 04 Dec 2017 18:59

Karan,are their no naval variants of both Akash and Astra being considered? Most missile manufacturers develop naval versions for the sake of commonality costs,etc.Having successfully developed those for IAF/IA use (Akash) and Astra for the IAF,surely the two can be developed further for tri-service SAMs.Astra being smaller and lighter could equip our corvette class surface combatants ,carriers too,while B-8/Akash for FFGs and larger vessels.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 05 Dec 2017 02:37

Might not be suited for this forum, but I am very curious why papis have stopped any missile test? have the moon splitting missiles already locked and loaded?
Miss those days when an Indian test would be met by a firing a green brown painted mizzile with a laal topi . Now it is just manmohan like whimper of destabilization of subcontinent.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kit » 05 Dec 2017 03:16

ArjunPandit wrote:Might not be suited for this forum, but I am very curious why papis have stopped any missile test? have the moon splitting missiles already locked and loaded?
Miss those days when an Indian test would be met by a firing a green brown painted mizzile with a laal topi . Now it is just manmohan like whimper of destabilization of subcontinent.



Probably the generals are busy counting their money by selling off their country and hoping their taller than mountains friend would come galloping down the Himalayas via the spanky CPEC highways whenever they bleat for help ??

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2017 04:42

Philip,

The QRSAM is being developed for the Naval role:
http://i2.wp.com/www.thevoiceofchandiga ... =800%2C583

It is basically a compact alternative to the larger Akash with some new capabilities

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 05 Dec 2017 04:43

Original QRSAM is IA specific. We now know a Naval version is in works and stands to reason an IAF version will complement SpyDer, replace OSA-AK

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 05 Dec 2017 18:36

Tx,I wasn't aware that the QRSAM was Akash based.I'm sure that na ASTRA tri-service SAM would also be very compact and more rounds could be carried aboard naval vessels.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JTull » 05 Dec 2017 18:48

ArjunPandit wrote:Might not be suited for this forum, but I am very curious why papis have stopped any missile test? have the moon splitting missiles already locked and loaded?
Miss those days when an Indian test would be met by a firing a green brown painted mizzile with a laal topi . Now it is just manmohan like whimper of destabilization of subcontinent.


Sub-contracted to NoKo! :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ashishvikas » 05 Dec 2017 19:58

News from @DRDO_India - Successful test of
Surface to Air Missile Akash with indigenous radio frequency seeker against target Banshee test fired from Integrated Test Range, at Chandipur earlier today.

https://twitter.com/delhidefence/status ... 7617742848

Successful Launch of Akash Missile

The Surface to Air Missile AKASH with indigenous radio frequency seeker against target Banshee, has been successfully launched from the Launch Complex-III at ITR Chandipur today at 1338 hrs. The Radars, telemetry and electro-optical systems along the coast have tracked and monitored all the health parameters of the missile. The launch operations were witnessed by
Director General (Missiles), DRDO and Scientific Adviser to Raksha Mantri (SA to RM) Dr. G Satheesh Reddy; Director DRDL, Shri MSR Prasad; Program Director, Shri G Chandra Mouli; Director ITR, Dr. BK Das and other top DRDO scientists.
SA to RM congratulated all the DRDO scientists and Armed Forces for this success.

This missile is being inducted into Army as Short Range Surface to Air Missile (SRSAM). This is the first Surface to Air Missile with indigenous seeker that has been test fired. With this success, India has achieved the capability of making any type of Surface to Air Missile.

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/mbErel.aspx?relid=174118

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 05 Dec 2017 20:59

^^^
Akash 1S it seems


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 05 Dec 2017 22:30

I am sure this question has been posed before, but how is a realistic target simulated for Akash or indeed, any other missile? The Banshee drone appears to have a max speed of 200 Knots, while in real life, the adversary will be flying aircrafts that are much faster and with a greater maneuverability.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 05 Dec 2017 22:33

There is a difference between developmental and operational testing as far as objectives are concerned. If this is the former, then you are going through the steps required to fully verify missile performance vs design requirements. Most systems start out this way before they are mature enough be put up against an operationally relevant threat either physically or using synthetic testing and modeling.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 06 Dec 2017 00:07

True. So what is used as an 'operationally relevant threat'? Another Akash missile? :-D How is a fighter plane, that will be moving at high speeds and turning this way or that simulated?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 06 Dec 2017 00:30

The Banshee target mimics operational targets and is accepted as a viable target.
radar cross section, speed, incoming vector

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 06 Dec 2017 00:41

sudeepj wrote:True. So what is used as an 'operationally relevant threat'? Another Akash missile? :-D How is a fighter plane, that will be moving at high speeds and turning this way or that simulated?


Either using a target that can properly mimic the desired performance and payload (ECM) or via simulation if such a target is not available.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Picklu » 06 Dec 2017 01:32

With the seeker, is 2D battery control radar sufficient in LOAL mode or does akash still need Rajendra for command guidance?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nachiket » 06 Dec 2017 01:49

Picklu wrote:With the seeker, is 2D battery control radar sufficient in LOAL mode or does akash still need Rajendra for command guidance?

I guess that would depend on whether this new RF seeker is passive or active? It will have less dependence on Rajendra's capabilities if it is an active seeker. Karan M and other gurus, is my understanding correct?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2017 01:57

Philip wrote:Tx,I wasn't aware that the QRSAM was Akash based.I'm sure that na ASTRA tri-service SAM would also be very compact and more rounds could be carried aboard naval vessels.


QRSAM is not Akash based. It is a mixture of tech incubated by DRDO from Astra and several other programs. What I meant was its performance is in the same range class and it is more compact.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2017 01:59

Picklu wrote:With the seeker, is 2D battery control radar sufficient in LOAL mode or does akash still need Rajendra for command guidance?


There are no 2D Battery control radars, but a 3D one.
Typically, the seeker will turn on x km before the target and the ground FCR radar shuts off its guidance. Having said that, with the short ranges of the Akash plus modern day seekers easily achieving 20 km ranges against loaded fighter targets, a LOBL with seeker active is entirely possible, unless there is heavy jamming going on

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2017 02:00

nachiket wrote:
Picklu wrote:With the seeker, is 2D battery control radar sufficient in LOAL mode or does akash still need Rajendra for command guidance?

I guess that would depend on whether this new RF seeker is passive or active? It will have less dependence on Rajendra's capabilities if it is an active seeker. Karan M and other gurus, is my understanding correct?


It is most definitely an active seeker. And you are quite correct it makes the whole system flexible.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Picklu » 06 Dec 2017 02:49

Karan M wrote:
Picklu wrote:With the seeker, is 2D battery control radar sufficient in LOAL mode or does akash still need Rajendra for command guidance?


There are no 2D Battery control radars, but a 3D one.
Typically, the seeker will turn on x km before the target and the ground FCR radar shuts off its guidance. Having said that, with the short ranges of the Akash plus modern day seekers easily achieving 20 km ranges against loaded fighter targets, a LOBL with seeker active is entirely possible, unless there is heavy jamming going on


Sorry, I meant 2D BSR - the cheaper "polish" one with 100 km range. IIRC, both Raj and 3D CAR are expensive, hiking the overall system cost.

If Aakash 1S can be deployed with 2D BSR only leaving out other sensors, that config can cheaply replace a lot of old russian SRSAMs currently in service with better accuracy and kill probability.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 06 Dec 2017 02:55

ramana wrote:The Banshee target mimics operational targets and is accepted as a viable target.
radar cross section, speed, incoming vector

Ramana guru, is cost the only reason? I could think of following additional factors
1. Order book for IAF/IA is still not fully delivered
2. Any risk to life/equipment in case of a test failure (can be obviated by proper location/path planning)
3. there may be glitches in other missile, which itself may render the test of other pointless (seems less of an issue considering akash has been inducted and consistently met test parameters)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 06 Dec 2017 03:46

Picklu wrote:
Karan M wrote:
There are no 2D Battery control radars, but a 3D one.
Typically, the seeker will turn on x km before the target and the ground FCR radar shuts off its guidance. Having said that, with the short ranges of the Akash plus modern day seekers easily achieving 20 km ranges against loaded fighter targets, a LOBL with seeker active is entirely possible, unless there is heavy jamming going on


Sorry, I meant 2D BSR - the cheaper "polish" one with 100 km range. IIRC, both Raj and 3D CAR are expensive, hiking the overall system cost.

If Aakash 1S can be deployed with 2D BSR only leaving out other sensors, that config can cheaply replace a lot of old russian SRSAMs currently in service with better accuracy and kill probability.

2D BSR has been replaced with 3D CAR.
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Mihir » 06 Dec 2017 04:28

Karan M wrote:
nachiket wrote:I guess that would depend on whether this new RF seeker is passive or active? It will have less dependence on Rajendra's capabilities if it is an active seeker. Karan M and other gurus, is my understanding correct?

It is most definitely an active seeker. And you are quite correct it makes the whole system flexible.

Saurav Jha says its a passive seeker.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 06 Dec 2017 06:47

Mihir: Are you sure? His most recent tweet says this...

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/938100452696113152 --> If you think the Akash Mk-1S upgrade has been a long time coming, wait till you see DRDO's Akash NG with an active RF seeker, laser proximity fuse and dual pulse solid propulsion and near 50 km max range.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 06 Dec 2017 07:25

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/938103115818995712 --> Countries usually don't end up being invited to join international denial regimes that were specifically set up to retard their progress. But India's missile capability meant that it was no longer feasible to 'MTCR' it. The world respects only strength.

https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/938102105776177154 --> Strength does not come from waiting for hand me downs couched in terms such as 'transfer of technology', 'license production' yada yada.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nash » 06 Dec 2017 08:00

"Presently, the BrahMos has a speed of 2.8 Mach... in two years time it would be increased to 3.5 Mach, and by five five years, it would be 5 Mach," said BrahMos Aerospace Pvt.Ltd. (BAPL) Managing Director & CEO Sudhir Kumar Mishrat

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/61936082.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cpps



BrahMos-NG

BrahMos-NG (Next Generation) is a mini version based on the existing BrahMos, will have same 290 km range and mach 3.5 speed but it will weigh around 1.5 tons, 5 meters in length and 50 cm in diameter, making BrahMos-NG 50 percent lighter and three meters shorter than its predecessor


May be we can have BrahMos-NG or mini by end of this decade.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2017 11:07

sudeepj wrote:I am sure this question has been posed before, but how is a realistic target simulated for Akash or indeed, any other missile? The Banshee drone appears to have a max speed of 200 Knots, while in real life, the adversary will be flying aircrafts that are much faster and with a greater maneuverability.


Actual AF aircraft for radar/sensor checks and ECCM validation, plus Mirach drones for high speed targets, Lakshya/Banshee for lower speed ones including mimicking low flying targets, parabarrels for very low speed targets (think helis), electronic targets to feed data into missile and check its flight path, performance etc without using up real targets each time.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gagan » 06 Dec 2017 11:08

The series of wind tunnels that China has built at Mianyang, will have to be built by India too.
Hypersonics is the new MTCR and there are 3 nations in that tent. India must be the 4th in that tent.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2017 11:10

Mihir wrote:
Karan M wrote:It is most definitely an active seeker. And you are quite correct it makes the whole system flexible.

Saurav Jha says its a passive seeker.


Putting a passive SARH seeker on Akash would be a step backwards when we have ARH available from Astra, BMD etc. Logically, its an ARH.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2017 11:16

Picklu, the 2D BSR was dropped. We are all 3D now in terms of sensor procurement. Even Bharani Mk2 is 3D.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 06 Dec 2017 11:56

Karan M wrote:
Mihir wrote:Saurav Jha says its a passive seeker.


Putting a passive SARH seeker on Akash would be a step backwards when we have ARH available from Astra, BMD etc. Logically, its an ARH.


Compared to command guidance of Akash , SARH is one generation ahead because Missile seeker operating SARH mode and receives reflected energy from the target. The data received is then datalinked to the guidance station on the ground, which formulates the guidance commands and sends them back to the missile. SARH guidance the missile would be generating its own guidance commands to home in on the target. The advantage here is that you get pretty good accuracy without a really complicated missile, and you get better accuracy by using the greater computing power of the ground station to sort things out and generate guidance commands.

ARH seeker would be the next step that that would also make the missile expensive since the electronic/seeker of missile makes around 60 % cost of the missile.

All in All a SARH Akash missile is way better than CG Akash and now they have the luxury to increase Akash-1S range to around 50 Km without having to worry about its accuracy at long range something comparable to Shtil-1 or BUK-2 SAM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gagan » 06 Dec 2017 12:47

Isn't command guidance limited to Line of sight only?
Would this not be an issue if deployed in hilly areas?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 06 Dec 2017 12:59

How would an active seeker help in hilly areas if the ARH seeker itself is not able to lock on to target and that number does not extended in few single digit and few larger seeker can go into double digit and depends on target in question , there are many variables to consider in this equation for active seeker to work effectively.

For 80 % of the times the missile is still guided and dependent by its ground based radar and is dependent on target getting tracked by them to provide MCG only the last few km is taken over by active seeker.

Another things to consider Jam resistance is better provided by Ground based radar then the small active seeker with limited power and ECM capability of the missile

Cost effective wise a SARH seeker would work best for most scenario , they can always improve on SARH guidance by going for advanced SAGG or TVM type perhaps they might have done already who knows , These are just advanced form of SARH guidance.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 06 Dec 2017 13:11

Gagan wrote:Isn't command guidance limited to Line of sight only?
Would this not be an issue if deployed in hilly areas?

No, the command guidance can be carefully aligned. It can ensure that missile guidance beams are not in the same alignment as the missile trajectory. Missiles like Seawolf & Barak1 use Command Guidance for this reason.

In ARH & SARH, the missile guidance beams are in the same direction and alignment as the missile, so easier to jam. Its very difficult to jam command guidance.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 06 Dec 2017 13:21

I believe we will have solid fuel air to surface missiles to supplement the garuda family.
the brahmos engine is russian made and costly, not VFM for smaller missiles.
smaller version of this engine will not necessarily be free of price gouging.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Dec 2017 13:55

Saurau Jha never said Akhash 1S has passive seeker, he said Akash NG has Active seeker, dual pulse motor etc. Having an active seeker means one can reduce the 55KG warhead weight of Akash to a smaller warhead with greater range.

55KG warhead with command guidance was chosen since the warhead blast effect(against Aircraft/cruise Missiles/Helis) can be effective for 20 meters radius to make up for slight inaccuracies/target maneuvering in the last minute.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 06 Dec 2017 18:01

Akash is perfect for CM defenses. Cheap, no seeker and can be deployed in numbers.

If we can build a smaller, containerised version of Akash to add more numbers that would be very good.

A compact short 10-15 KM range, command guided missile, in a pack of 20-30 missile per TEL. Cheap and good against CM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gagan » 06 Dec 2017 19:03

The pechoras spent their whole life exposed to the elements - and my word, the weather in India varies from extreme hot to rain to cold.
Akash missiles will do the same.
Wonder why they decided not to canisterise them? Would the canisters become too hot, needing climate control?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 06 Dec 2017 19:08

Again, why would you develop a SARH seeker when you already have an ARH one and give up the flexibility of an ARH one, which protects the firing radar? By reducing the time of exposure to ARM and also, allows for significantly more lethality in terms of usage and deployment.
You have to make all sorts of changes to the ground based computing as well with more primitive seekers.
A fire and forget missile is better for survivability of the system and with an Akash sized seeker, you can literally have it go active from launch, reducing the FCR reliance to a minimum and also, use the FCR as a backup.

Logically, there is no sense to having a SARH on Akash-1S.
Almost all current modern BVR AAMs for instance have now move to ARH because of the flexibility and survivability.

Austin wrote:
Karan M wrote:
Putting a passive SARH seeker on Akash would be a step backwards when we have ARH available from Astra, BMD etc. Logically, its an ARH.


Compared to command guidance of Akash , SARH is one generation ahead because Missile seeker operating SARH mode and receives reflected energy from the target. The data received is then datalinked to the guidance station on the ground, which formulates the guidance commands and sends them back to the missile. SARH guidance the missile would be generating its own guidance commands to home in on the target. The advantage here is that you get pretty good accuracy without a really complicated missile, and you get better accuracy by using the greater computing power of the ground station to sort things out and generate guidance commands.

ARH seeker would be the next step that that would also make the missile expensive since the electronic/seeker of missile makes around 60 % cost of the missile.

All in All a SARH Akash missile is way better than CG Akash and now they have the luxury to increase Akash-1S range to around 50 Km without having to worry about its accuracy at long range something comparable to Shtil-1 or BUK-2 SAM.


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