Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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sudeepj
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 28 Dec 2017 21:56

Israel has used their sparrow series of target missiles, but these simulate ballistic missiles to test their Arrow ABM system, not air breathing super sonic cruise missiles.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparrow_(target_missile)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Haridas » 28 Dec 2017 22:16

...
Last edited by Haridas on 28 Dec 2017 22:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Haridas » 28 Dec 2017 22:18

sudeepj wrote:Su30 can do mach 1.2 with the Brahmos attached! its a beast! :-D


shallow dive and fire in tailpipe.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 28 Dec 2017 23:16

sudeepj wrote:
ashishvikas wrote:NAL bailed out BrahMos ALCM when Russians asked for the Moon
By: Anantha Krishnan M
December 28, 2017

http://english.mathrubhumi.com/amp/news ... ssion=true


From the link:

Later, the aerodynamic loads on the complete configuration was determined in the 4-ft wind tunnel simulating flight Mach number range of 0.55 to 1.2 conditions at various angles of attack and sideslip to ascertain installation effects, store load in carriage position and in aircraft interference flow-field.


Su30 can do mach 1.2 with the Brahmos attached! its a beast! :-D


In Wind Tunnel, for Sure. Not so sure about real life.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby andy B » 28 Dec 2017 23:25

JayS wrote:
sudeepj wrote:
From the link:



Su30 can do mach 1.2 with the Brahmos attached! its a beast! :-D


In Wind Tunnel, for Sure. Not so sure about real life.


Jay S saar reckon you are bang on, highly doubt a full supersonic release in real time conditions. I think a more realistic launch profile will be high subsonic. Still huge amount of kinetic energy endowed at the start of the flight path for the brahmos. What would be interesting is how much extra ooomph this would give in a lofted hi lo profile. Doubt we will get an answer....

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 28 Dec 2017 23:59

John wrote:I am all for SRSAM program but what frustrates me about it is we seem to be earmarking for vessels that are already completed which only puts more pressure on overall program. Right know we have $350 million vessels fitted with no SAM and likely same is going to happen with next gen missile corvette. This is repeat of Trishul and brahmaputra class debacle at least back then we didn't have many fall back options but know we do.


I don't get what you are saying. Why would IN put SRSAM on vessels with Barak-1 and frontline combatants would remain without a SAM? Unless I don't understand what you are stating.
As far as I understand, we have Barak-1 in service, the Russian new ships contracted will come with their own SAM & SRSAM (imported & Indian) are for the rest (newer ships, in the yard or to be ordered).

Trishul example is not germaine because right now the IN has clearance for ordering SAMs & has released a RFI already. They are not being forced to wait for an Indian only solution, and only if it does not work will they order a foreign unit. If the DRDO SRSAM does not work, the Navy can continue with the other imported program.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 29 Dec 2017 00:20

Why would they test it in the wind tunnel if it wasn't possible in real life. Seems like a waste of wind tunnel resources. Its possible that high mach numbers are reached in corner envelopes that are unlikely in real life, such as very low fuel and max afterburner.. But even then, the plane reaching those speeds with a nearly 9 meter, 2.5 tonne chunk of metal attached to it is amazing! Another point to consider is the relative cost inefficiency of the Russian tech. centers. Even if one assumes a 70% profit margin, what would have taken them 390 crores to do, took NAL only about 10 crores!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 29 Dec 2017 02:20

Karan M wrote:
John wrote:I am all for SRSAM program but what frustrates me about it is we seem to be earmarking for vessels that are already completed which only puts more pressure on overall program. Right know we have $350 million vessels fitted with no SAM and likely same is going to happen with next gen missile corvette. This is repeat of Trishul and brahmaputra class debacle at least back then we didn't have many fall back options but know we do.


I don't get what you are saying. Why would IN put SRSAM on vessels with Barak-1 and frontline combatants would remain without a SAM? Unless I don't understand what you are stating.
As far as I understand, we have Barak-1 in service, the Russian new ships contracted will come with their own SAM & SRSAM (imported & Indian) are for the rest (newer ships, in the yard or to be ordered).

Trishul example is not germaine because right now the IN has clearance for ordering SAMs & has released a RFI already. They are not being forced to wait for an Indian only solution, and only if it does not work will they order a foreign unit. If the DRDO SRSAM does not work, the Navy can continue with the other imported program.

Actually I am not sure I follow you I was referring to P-28s which currently do not have SAM system fitted in. Unless you have info that they are slated to receive Barak-1 instead?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby arun » 29 Dec 2017 11:29

The “Official” Ministry of Defence press release on yesterday’s ballistic missile defence system interceptor missile test via Press Information Bureau (PIB):

Ministry of Defence
Successful Direct Hit by Interceptor Missile

Posted On: 28 DEC 2017 9:17PM by PIB Delhi

Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) System of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) successfully scored a direct hit on incoming missile today at around 09:45 am from Dr Abdul Kalam Island off the coast of Odisha. The interceptor directly hit the target at an altitude of about 15 kilometre and destroyed it into fragments. The spectacular success puts India in the league of a very few select nations world over in the arena of critical defence technology.

Today’s direct interception is fourth in a row, where the missiles have scored a perfect hit on the incoming missile.

In text book style launch, the incoming ballistic missile was launched from LC-III complex of ITR, which followed the exact path of intended ballistic missile. Radars located at different stations far-off, acquired the target, tracked them and passed on to the Master Control Centre (MCC), which generated the expected trajectory of the target and alerted the interceptor missile. The interceptor was launched from Dr A P J Abdul Kalam Island at appropriate time for interception, which was initially guided by the Inertial Navigational System and the radars. Later, the seeker took over after a proper lock on to the target and guided the missile towards the target. All the radars, Electro Optical and Telemetry Stations tracked both the missiles and recorded the final interception.

The event was witnessed by Vice Chief of Air Staff Air Marshal Sirish Deo and other senior officials of Armed Forces. Directors of DRDO laboratories namely RCI, ASL, LRDE and ITR reviewed the entire launch operations.

Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri & Director General (Missiles & Strategic Systems) Dr G Sateesh Reddy was present during the launch operation said that the repeat performance of the interception demonstrates the country’s professional capability in high technology oriented Ballistic Missile Defence.

Chairman DRDO & Secretary Department of Defence Research & Development Dr S Christopher, congratulated the scientists behind the magnificent feat and said that the test paved the way for self-reliance.

Raksha Mantri Smt Nirmala Sitharaman congratulated DRDO for elevating the country to few select nations having such BMD capability.

NA/DK
(Release ID: 1514567)


From here:

PIB

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 29 Dec 2017 11:55

sudeepj wrote:Why would they test it in the wind tunnel if it wasn't possible in real life. Seems like a waste of wind tunnel resources.


To see if can be achieved in real life, without directly conducting possibly dangerous test in flight testing. Not really a waste of resources, that's the whole point of doing WT testing, isn't it..? For all we know it can indeed do it in real life. But the source you are using to conclude this doesn't actually provide enough info to conclude this. Its not just about achievable speed using brute force on in dive, but whether the carriage forces are low enough not to rip the store off the pylon.

Similarly flying at some speed with some store underslung may not be same as launching it at that speed because clean store separation may not be possible at that speed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 29 Dec 2017 12:11

SSridhar wrote:In August 2017, a Russian news agency claimed that India has deployed its BMD at two places in Rajasthan, Alwar & Pali.

If it was not entirely true, it is probably closer to truth, accuracy or otherwise of the location notwithstanding.

Three tests were conducted in 2017 emphasising the urgency of the BMD programme. All these were successful and all these were 'direct hits' proving the reliability of the kill vehicle. Two endo & one exo.

After the Feb 2017 exo test, DRDO said, that it was now possible to deploy the two-tier ballistic missile defence shield.

So, we must assume that Phase I of the BMD for TBMs is at fruition now.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 29 Dec 2017 20:44

Excellent test by DRDO! Going by memory, yesterday's ABM test was the 13th overall, and that includes one or two simulated ones, where no missile was actually intercepted. There were two failures among the 13 tests. But one of those involved a missile, whether interceptor or target, not even taking off.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kumarvinod » 01 Jan 2018 13:34

Found a very Detailed article about Astra:


http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/aeros ... f-vayusena

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 01 Jan 2018 15:12

Kumarvinod wrote:Found a very Detailed article about Astra:


http://fullafterburner.weebly.com/aeros ... f-vayusena

Very interesting article. HAs a lot of details on many things. Not sure how much credibility it has though. I wish people would provide references to their articles and specify where they are sourcing the factual information from.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby suryag » 01 Jan 2018 15:21

Sir references are at the bottom of the page and one of them is trishul-trident so definitely some BS is mixed in that article. What i like about the article though, is its holistic nature and serves as a decent get started guide on A2A missiles

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kumarvinod » 01 Jan 2018 16:24

Do we any any confirmed number on Astra for IAF?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 01 Jan 2018 17:06

suryag wrote:Sir references are at the bottom of the page and one of them is trishul-trident so definitely some BS is mixed in that article. What i like about the article though, is its holistic nature and serves as a decent get started guide on A2A missiles


I saw them. But he doesn't specify which thing is take from where. That's what I wanted to say. A small additional effort would make all the difference, I feel.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 01 Jan 2018 17:40

Any further news about the Astra-ER?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Yagnasri » 01 Jan 2018 17:44

Kumarvinod wrote:Do we any any confirmed number on Astra for IAF?


I think initial production of 50 units was ordered.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 01 Jan 2018 22:53

JayS wrote:
sudeepj wrote:Why would they test it in the wind tunnel if it wasn't possible in real life. Seems like a waste of wind tunnel resources.


To see if can be achieved in real life, without directly conducting possibly dangerous test in flight testing. Not really a waste of resources, that's the whole point of doing WT testing, isn't it..? For all we know it can indeed do it in real life. But the source you are using to conclude this doesn't actually provide enough info to conclude this. Its not just about achievable speed using brute force on in dive, but whether the carriage forces are low enough not to rip the store off the pylon.

Similarly flying at some speed with some store underslung may not be same as launching it at that speed because clean store separation may not be possible at that speed.


Very good points I had not thought of!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 01 Jan 2018 23:09

Yagnasri wrote:
Kumarvinod wrote:Do we any any confirmed number on Astra for IAF?


I think initial production of 50 units was ordered.


Jaitley had inaugurated that facility

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 02 Jan 2018 05:05

They must have cleared some landmark on HSTDV.

DRDO January'18 Newsletter
Dr Biren Roy Trust Award

Dr RK Sharma, OS and Project Director, Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (HSTDV), DRDL, Hyderabad, has been awarded the prestigious Dr Biren Roy Trust Award for his outstanding contribution towards development of scramjet engine integrated HSTDV and related hypersonic technologies.


We know that ISRO's DMTJ flight test was also successful.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 02 Jan 2018 05:20

Interesting bits there, DRDO head:

In order to promote Make In India, many technologies
have been handed over to industries and DPSUs in the august presence
of Hon’ble RMs including ‘Light Weight Torpedo (LWT)’; ‘Technical
Solutions for Integrated Anti Submarine Warfare (ASW) Defence Suite’;
‘Technical Solutions for Fire Control Systems Solution and Torpedo
Interface Technologies for ASW Upgrade’; and ‘Ejection System for GPS
Recovery Aid’. Successful flight trial of ‘Akash Missile with indigenous
Seeker’ and ‘BrahMos Flight test from Sukhoi MKI’ has brought sparkles
in the eyes of each Indian looking at us and guessing “What next?” All
heads have rolled towards PXE, Balasore, where our scientists achieved
a commendable feat and played a pivotal role in executing dynamic Test
and Evaluation of indigenously developed Armaments of a record 21, 253
rounds, resulting in timely delivery of weapons and ammunition to Armed
Forces.


Plus a huge section on MPR Arudhra, which is interesting in that it clearly mentions its cleared for induction and also, it can provide external designation. If this refers to missile designation, then an Arudhra can replace the Israeli ADFCR in an Indianized Barak-8/MRSAM for the IAF/IA.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Jan 2018 11:17

That DRDO January 2018 is full of good tid bits'
There was speculation here that Akash 1S had a passive seeker only, this puts such speculation to rest

The surface-to-air missile Akash, with indigenous radio frequency seeker, was successfully tested against target Banshee, from the Launch Complex-III at Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur, on 5 December 2017.

This missile is being inducted into Army as Short Range Surface-to-Air Missile (SRSAM). This is the first surface-to-air missile with indigenous seeker that has been test fired. With this success, India has acquired the capability of making any type of surface-to-air missile.




The air launched BrahMos—a 2.5 ton supersonic air-to-surface cruise missile with range of more than 400 km—is the heaviest weapon to be deployed on the Su-30.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 02 Jan 2018 11:56

B-1's range was given as being around 10+ km.What the IN want is a new missile with improved performance with a range out to 20km. While B-8 can do the job with ease,our principal warships that carry B-8 carry too few SAMs for the purpose.A few salvoes to deal with and one would be running low on rounds.Smaller SAMs would also cost less saving the more expensive B-8s for LR interception.There is an ER B-8 being developed by israel,but we aren't part of it say some reports.
As on land,layered defences give max. insurance.Gun/missile BPDMS as the last resort.One awaits the arrival of laser weaponry in the future which should solve the problem.The US is testing laser weaponry against drones.Could see it being introduced early in the next decade.

Karan,Wasn't Akash supposed to be an MR SAM? Wasn't it originally supposed to replace the SAM-6?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 02 Jan 2018 13:29

Aditya_V wrote:That DRDO January 2018 is full of good tid bits'
There was speculation here that Akash 1S had a passive seeker only, this puts such speculation to rest

The surface-to-air missile Akash, with indigenous radio frequency seeker, was successfully tested against target Banshee, from the Launch Complex-III at Integrated Test Range (ITR), Chandipur, on 5 December 2017.

This missile is being inducted into Army as Short Range Surface-to-Air Missile (SRSAM). This is the first surface-to-air missile with indigenous seeker that has been test fired. With this success, India has acquired the capability of making any type of surface-to-air missile.




The air launched BrahMos—a 2.5 ton supersonic air-to-surface cruise missile with range of more than 400 km—is the heaviest weapon to be deployed on the Su-30.

Sorry if I missed it, but the quoted text does not seem to indicate if the seeker is passive or active.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Jan 2018 13:49

I guess in a passive system they would have used the word "receiver" instead of the word Radio Frequency Seeker.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 02 Jan 2018 14:47

Philip wrote:Karan,Wasn't Akash supposed to be an MR SAM? Wasn't it originally supposed to replace the SAM-6?


The Akash has replaced SA-6 in the IA. It is of the same range class. Four regiments are now on order.

The IA is also buying the Barak-8 as is the IAF for longer ranged SAMs.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 02 Jan 2018 14:49

abhik wrote:Sorry if I missed it, but the quoted text does not seem to indicate if the seeker is passive or active.


DRDO has no programs for SARH but multiple ones for active seekers, including an indigenized version of the Russian seeker and a compact version of the seeker developed for the AAD program.

In short, the chances of this being any passive seeker are unlikely to say the least.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 02 Jan 2018 15:08

to defeat a incoming salvo of subsonic ASM, with sophisticated ECCM, networking, complex moves and LO shaping, let alone a supersonic ASM, needs a 'proper' missile like the ESSM, not the cheap Tamir CRAM type stuff I think - artillery, rockets and mortars are much slower, unable to act smart and are the easiest category of inflight targets.

we have to develop the QRSAM keeping in mind the quad packing necessity in the B-8 silos or else design our ships with more VLS mags. the P15A and B and P28 surely have enough vacant areas for push in mags for small missiles. the P15 and P17 not so much...well they will if we retire the B-1

we need some unified planning rather than a different type of magazine for each missile going forward. for this we can perhaps look to the brahmos UVLS as the std 'deep' silo for Nirbhay, brahmos2, K15 and other big stuff, and adapt the B8 or some new silo chassis for 'medium' and 'short' application.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 02 Jan 2018 15:52

QRSAM very valid points - I dont think we still have any UVL type form factor for all our missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 02 Jan 2018 15:57


Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Jan 2018 16:00

Is that a Tatra truck Qr sam is mounted on? Cant we find something from TATA or Ashok Leyland as a replacement.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby andy B » 02 Jan 2018 16:04

Aditya_V wrote:Is that a Tatra truck Qr sam is mounted on? Cant we find something from TATA or Ashok Leyland as a replacement.



Sir Ji I reckon thats an AL Super Stallion or something on the lines I reckon based on form factor. Highly doubt thats a Tatra

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 02 Jan 2018 16:10

Aditya_V wrote:Is that a Tatra truck Qr sam is mounted on? Cant we find something from TATA or Ashok Leyland as a replacement.


AL not Tatra

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 02 Jan 2018 16:32

Thanks Karan, that is very good to hear. One more dependency going , thanks to the man DDM villified Gen V.K Singh

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 02 Jan 2018 22:06

Karan M wrote:QRSAM is packed 6 to a TEL.
https://i1.wp.com/www.indino.in/wp-cont ... =960%2C540

Out of curiosity why not use full VLS system similar to SA-15 where launcher is already aligned vertically. Such a system should have better reaction time? Perhaps something that can be done later in development cycle.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 02 Jan 2018 22:14

regarding the enigmatic range of B'mos. What if it's 900Km and we launch it for full length
1. what will the world be able to do if it is 1000? give reparations to pukistan or sanction russia (more than what they have) or us?
2. If india denies it how will they verify? paki radar data? will they go to ICJ for this as war crime for blasting their command and comm center
3. how will paki's verify this esp if it is air launched. I suppose the blast would make it difficult to identify if it's air launched or land launched?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 02 Jan 2018 22:35


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 03 Jan 2018 01:11

Singha wrote:https://plarealtalk.com/chinese-navy-vls-75c0de25545d

I assume it directed at my comment, i would say hot launch rather than cold launch module SA-15 uses. Since Barak-1/8 use that (VL-Mica also uses it). It would also allow us to test the components and install same vls launcher on naval ships.


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