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Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
ks_sachin
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Jan 2018 21:23

brar_w wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
loitering for me i something that is launched with no defined target and as and when something comes up.......
cruise missile for me is something that goes to a predetermined target - whether in a zig zag manner or straight or ever decreasing circles!!


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=2242978#p2242978

fair enough. but don't they imply a target being programmed before the launch of the missile. mid course the target can be reassigned.
mid course guidance / corrections / programmability to me are not loitering but crudely speaking guided missiles.
can these missiles be recovered if for any reason the target is not available or opportune.

Anyway who am I to quibble with the use of the english language in describing missiles!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 06 Jan 2018 21:34

ks_sachin wrote:fair enough. but don't they imply a target being programmed before the launch of the missile. mid course the target can be reassigned.
mid course guidance / corrections / programmability to me are not loitering but crudely speaking guided missiles.


Loitering would mean that the missile is tasked with hanging around for longer (for any reason) before attacking its intended target. It could be for ISR, it could be for BDA from some other weapon or it could be for intel reasons or something that may require confirmation before deciding whether to prosecute the target or whether to abort. Similarly, the ability to re-target means that you now have the tactical flexibility to re-assign new targets after the missile has been launched. This allows you to go after any targets of opportunity that may come up after missile launch. Long range subsonic missiles have a fairly long cruise phase so a lot can happen that may warrant a re-deployment - for example, a strike at some other target may have failed to accomplish its mission objective and you may need to assign that target because it is of a higher priority.

can these missiles be recovered if for any reason the target is not available or opportune


Tactically, you may have to decide whether the target which was programmed and fed during the mission planning phase hours earlier may no longer be relevant hence the ability to do non LOS SATCOM allows you to abort or assign a new target. It has nothing to do with mid-course guidance which is usually something you do to provide better data to a weapon on the same target in a dynamic engagement in cases where the target may be mobile. It will be only in the Anti-Surface role that cruise missiles need mid-course guidance/update on the target they have been programmed to attack. Most land attack applications involve fixed targets where GPS data would be pre-fed during mission planning. Buildings, airfields, and hangers don't move. For anything else (like a moving or re-locatable target) you would need to add a seeker and some long range cruise missiles have that planned for future insertions in which case they would be able to leverage mid course guidance on relocatable targets such as air-defense radars or C2 nodes.

I don't understand what you mean be recovery? Do you want to launch a SAR operation to get the missile back after an abort? There will be very few instances when you would want to recover attack missiles. Recovery will be preferred for more sensitive and expensive, reusable payloads such as those found on UAVs or in future recoverable missiles_sized drones that may be tasked with ISR or EW duties.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 06 Jan 2018 22:03

brar_w wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:fair enough. but don't they imply a target being programmed before the launch of the missile. mid course the target can be reassigned.
mid course guidance / corrections / programmability to me are not loitering but crudely speaking guided missiles.


Recovery will be preferred for more sensitive and expensive, reusable payloads such as those found on UAVs or in future recoverable missiles_sized drones that may be tasked with ISR or EW duties.


precisely - for me these are loitering assets - missiles less so!!

Anyway I am just being pedantic!!!

Anyway braw thanks for the tons of info you always provide. very illuminating. That is why I loiter here!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 06 Jan 2018 22:25

ks_sachin wrote:precisely - for me these are loitering assets - missiles less so!!


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=2243021#p2243021
Last edited by brar_w on 06 Jan 2018 22:59, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 06 Jan 2018 22:26

Prem Kumar wrote:We have the greatest arsenal of loitering munitions. Our love-jihadis, who wander around looking for potential targets.


Now what exactly does this post adds to the discussion..?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 07 Jan 2018 00:34

brar_w wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:precisely - for me these are loitering assets - missiles less so!!


viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5098&p=2243021#p2243021

Thanks Brar. I appreciate your informative input and stand convinced and corrected.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby krishna_krishna » 07 Jan 2018 20:35

Photo chor Gupta has posted a pic of SANT underslung mi-35 , check it out :

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-n4OFJQVGeW8/ ... INA-ER.jpg

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby vasu raya » 07 Jan 2018 22:15

Subsonic CMs are known for their low signatures but less than 2 hours loiter time based on their 0.8 mach speed, a UAV with its large wing span increases both its loitering capability as well as RCS and a stealth drone tries to bring that back by balancing the RCS vs. endurance issue using the flying wing concept

In the Indian context, it’s the Nirbhay, Rustom and Ghatak respectively, though not any of them would be sufficient for carrying larger munitions like the CBU-105 or the KAB PGMs or even EFTs, a stealthy pod is still needed to keep the launch aircraft out of AD or BVR range and sure its RCS can be made much less than the Tejas or Rafale not to mention the MKI and thus allowing the launch aircraft to NOT use the terrain following or Jamming modes as the only means to avoid detection. while a powered version helps in tweaking the pod’s range, it should be expendable and have the inbuilt ability of CCIP for correct release of the munitions.

Since Brahmos-NG is targeted at 1500kg? this pod’s all up weight should be in that range, maybe it’s the MKI known for its larger RCS that is most benefited. Looking at the C-17 doing air drop of MALD etc., from the cargo hold, more options exist with IAF

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 08 Jan 2018 18:57

How does the S-400 fit in with our own ABM systems under development?

Russia expects to ink S-400 missile deal with India soon
Military & Defense December 27, 2017, 17:13 UTC+3
Russia’s S-400 Triumf is the latest long-range air defense missile system that went into service in 2007
Share
MOSCOW, December 27. /TASS/. Russia expects to sign a deal with India soon on the delivery of S-400 air defense missile systems, Vice-Premier Dmitry Rogozin said on Wednesday.

"We hope that the S-400 deal will be signed with India soon," Rogozin said in an interview with Rossiya-24 TV Channel.

READ ALSO

Exports of Russia’s S-400 missile systems
The Indian news agency PTI reported in mid-December citing Russia’s Rostec Corporation Director for International Cooperation Viktor Kladov that Russia and India were agreeing the technical details of the contract for the delivery of S-400 long-range surface-to-air missile systems and were "at a very advanced stage" of negotiations.

The sides are also discussing the price, personnel training, technology transfer and the number of air defense missile systems India will purchase.

Russia’s S-400 Triumf is the latest long-range anti-aircraft missile system that went into service in 2007. It is designed to destroy aircraft, cruise and ballistic missiles, including medium-range missiles, and can also be used against ground objectives.

The S-400 can engage targets at a distance of 400 km and at an altitude of up to 30 km.

Russian Aerospace Force Deputy Commander-in-Chief Viktor Gumyonny said in April that missiles capable of destroying targets in outer space had started arriving for the S-400 systems.


http://tass.com/defense/983372

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 08 Jan 2018 22:24

S-400 will be primarily long range SAM.
Not ABM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 09 Jan 2018 07:18

ramana wrote:S-400 will be primarily long range SAM.
Not ABM.

Rumored but not yet confirmed deal will consist of 40N6 and 48N6. That suggest it more towards ABM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 10 Jan 2018 09:56

India to buy SPIKE in govt to govt deal.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 10 Jan 2018 09:56

https://twitter.com/ramana_brf/status/9 ... 8620761088


Nag. The Nag missile has performed well in trials and has range of 500 meters to four kilometers. Defence ministry officials were at pains to emphasize that India has a deep defence cooperation with Israel and has recently approved a huge order to purchase torpedoes for its new submarines from that country. India is also looking to purchase assault rifles for the Army from Israel, they added.


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2018 10:38

^^Does that mean the earlier Spike cancellation due to "yet another kangrez scam"?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 10 Jan 2018 10:53

Didn't know Israelis made torpedoes.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2018 11:27

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-akam ... SKBN1EY2JY

Looks for performance enhancement of indigenously developed system

The Army is fully satisfied with the performance of the indigenously developed Akash short-range surface-to-air missile (SR SAM) system and is looking for further performance enhancements in future, Lt. Gen. Parminder Singh S Jaggi, Director-General, Army Air Defence (AAD), said here on Tuesday.

Last month, the Army carried out the first user trial of the missile system.

Biggest advantage
“We are happy with the Akash system. It is a watershed as far as indigenous systems are concerned. The biggest advantage is it is a home grown system,” Lt. Gen. Jaggi said.


The Army’s AAD celebrated its 25th year of raising on Tuesday.

The Army currently has two Akash regiments which it began inducting in 2015. Last year, the Defence Ministry cancelled a global tender for additional SR SAMs and approved procurement of two more regiments. Each regiment consists of six launchers with each launcher having three missiles. Officials say Akash has an indigenous content of 96%.

“The first user trial by AAD crew was fully successful. Akash has been validated as it has been conceptualised,” Lt. Gen. Jaggi said.

25-km range
Akash has a range of 25 km and can simultaneously engage multiple targets in all weather conditions and has a large operational envelope from a low altitude of 30 metres to a maximum of up to 20 km.

The Army is likely to order more Akash regiments as it is in the process of replacing its legacy systems in service.

Lt. Gen. Jaggi said as more regiments were ordered, there would be additional enhancements in the system as well in performance.

He noted that as AAD celebrated its silver jubilee, there had beeb a major modernisation drive under way with the induction of a medium-range surface-to-air missile for which contracts had been signed and other deals in progress.

Akash was developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as part of the Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme initiated in 1984 and is manufactured by Bharat Dynamics Ltd. (BDL).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 10 Jan 2018 11:36

ramana wrote:India to buy SPIKE in govt to govt deal.


So all the jingo lungi dance for cancellation of tender was all in vein...? :cry:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SaiK » 10 Jan 2018 11:54

I think this is to make Israel and BDL/Kalyani factory lines to get going. No TOT. So, SKD?

later, the same facilities will switch over to producing Nag ATGM.

/my best WAG

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Jan 2018 12:40

1 Army Regiment of Akash has only 6 launcher?, I thought an Army regiment of SAM's was much bigger than the Airforce SAM Squadron? Earlier it was reported each regiment will 1000 missiles, even considering reloads I think thats a lot more Launchers. I think the Article has got it wrong.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 10 Jan 2018 13:34

Aditya_V wrote:1 Army Regiment of Akash has only 6 launcher?, I thought an Army regiment of SAM's was much bigger than the Airforce SAM Squadron? Earlier it was reported each regiment will 1000 missiles, even considering reloads I think thats a lot more Launchers. I think the Article has got it wrong.


They got that piece wrong. It’s not six launchers but six troops (i.e. batteries) per regiment. There are also two HQs per regiment. See below:

Image
Last edited by srai on 10 Jan 2018 15:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 10 Jan 2018 15:48

And each battery would have 4 launchers?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 10 Jan 2018 16:01

^^^

IA Akash Regiment HQs (x 2)
  • 2 x CCC
  • 2 x 3D CAR + RSV
  • 2 x DCV
  • 2 x CPSV
  • 2 x CPV
  • 2 x TST

IA Akash Regiment Troops (x 6)
  • 6 x TCC
  • 6 x 3D CAR + RSV
  • 6 x TLR
  • 6 x TPSV
  • 6 x CPV
  • 6 x DCV
  • 6 x CPSV
  • 6 x TST
  • 24 x AAL (w/ 72 Akash missiles ready to fire)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 10 Jan 2018 16:30

Did the IA have to change the structure of an AD regiment owing to the Akash weapon system?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 10 Jan 2018 16:54

Livefist‏Verified account @livefist

The @DRDO_India makes it official with this front page flier in its January newsletter: the indigenous Akash SAM will be the Indian Army's SRSAM after the scrapping last year of a global three-way contest involving @Saab's BAMSE, Israel's SpyDer & Russia's Tor-M2KM.

Image
Image

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/951048783919370240

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 10 Jan 2018 16:59

ks_sachin wrote:Did the IA have to change the structure of an AD regiment owing to the Akash weapon system?

If we compare Akash with SA-6 since ideas were borrowed from it, the IA had acquired 25 SA-6 systems (i.e. batteries) and these were organized into 2 SA-6 Groups. So that would mean 12 batteries per Group. This translates to 2 regiments (each regiment with 6 batteries/troops) per Group.

Total order of Akash by the IA stands at 4 regiments, which would mean equivalent numbers are being purchased to replace its two SA-6 Groups.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 10 Jan 2018 17:05

this SRSAM is the Mk1A right with the RF active seeker for the end phase?
the IAF has some regiments of Mk1 which is guided from the ground, maybe more on order.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 10 Jan 2018 17:07

^^^
Akash 1S

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 10 Jan 2018 22:32

Ok, what is so unique about this picture.

http://pibphoto.nic.in/photo//2018/Jan/ ... 120249.jpg

The Union Minister for Defence, Smt. Nirmala Sitharaman being briefed about the Military Radar and Missile Systems outdoor test facility of BEL-Bangalore by the CMD, BEL, Shri M.V. Gowtama, during her visit to BEL, in Bangalore on January 09, 2018.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 10 Jan 2018 22:40

^^^
First picture of QRSAM BFMR (behind the crowd)

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby dinesh_kimar » 10 Jan 2018 22:47

^ I'm sure he's right. I was thinking same radar complex mounted on tatra, tata and Ashok Leyland.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 10 Jan 2018 22:50

SRai - yes, both radar variants!! So now we know how far ahead the program is progressing.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 10 Jan 2018 22:52

Another huge positive story if taken ahead.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/as-a ... 91365.html

A discussion took place at a high-level meeting in the defence ministry by top government and military officials where it was proposed that the DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation) should go ahead to develop the Very Short Range Air Defence System (VSHORAD) in the country itself, defence sources told Mail Today.

The development is taking place at a time when foreign vendors from three countries - Russia, France and Sweden - have fielded their systems for procurement by the Army to replace their vintage IGLA shoulder-fired air defence systems.

The plan to develop the missile system which can strike targets at ranges of six to seven kms indigenously is being considered as the NDA government has come up with a missile policy which states that the country should become self-reliant in fields of missile by the year 2022, the sources said.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 10 Jan 2018 23:36

^^^ KaranM About time this is developed by DRDO.

When discussion is taking place means the technology is ready for being inducted into a weapon design.
So project goal is to be before 2022.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 11 Jan 2018 00:50

ramana wrote:^^^ KaranM About time this is developed by DRDO.

When discussion is taking place means the technology is ready for being inducted into a weapon design.
So project goal is to be before 2022.


Which brings me to this program!

http://pibphoto.nic.in/photo//2018/Jan/ ... 120251.jpg

The MPATGM will also allow DRDO some critical building blocks for launcher tech!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 11 Jan 2018 07:37

Army satisfied with Akash missile
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/a ... 406415.ece

Blazing a trail: An Akash missile being fired at the Jaisalmer airbase in 2016.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 11 Jan 2018 09:29

ramana wrote:India to buy SPIKE in govt to govt deal.


Could this be Spike for Rudra and LCH ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby krishna_krishna » 11 Jan 2018 09:36

I am really not happy, first they said because of no real TOT deal is off and we have capability in house (demonstrated via SANT). The only thing I read from is forces were pushing for urgent replacement. This thing about production facility helpful for future production is all eyewash. Will this new unit be able to (or would be allowed) to make Indian ATGM will remain to see.

Per wiki this is the version being brought :
"Non Line Of Sight" is an ultra long range version of the weapon with a claimed maximum range of up to 25 km (16 mi). It is a significantly larger missile than other Spike variants with an overall weight of around 70 kg (154 lb 5 oz) that can be launched from the ground or from helicopters. It was developed following lessons learned in the Yom Kippur War, which showed a need for a high-precision guided tactical ground-to-ground battlefield missile. Codenamed Tamuz (תמוז), the first variants entered service with the IDF in tandem with the Pereh missile carrier in 1981, though the existence of both was not revealed to the public until 2011.[24][25][26] Rafael is working on expanding the missile's versatility by enhancing the existing EO-IR/CCD seeker with semi-active laser (SAL) capability and different anti-armor, blast-penetration, and high-explosive fragmentation warheads to meet specific applications

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 11 Jan 2018 21:12

A small titbit found in a mag which said that Nirbhay was given in 2016 a 2018 deadline before fund cut-off and scrapping of the programme.That it was successful is great.Also the new attitude of the current GOI to fix deadlines for programmes, not stretchable "IST"!

One worry was LCA production rates why with retiring MIGs in large number, LCA prod. rates would not catch up with rate of MIG retirement, the SEF requirement was felt necessary.In addition, the LCA was being loaded with " too many expectations." MK-1 A with a BVR SAM ( Derby)
and AESA radar would suffice with the 1A.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Jaeger » 11 Jan 2018 23:04

Karan M wrote:
Which brings me to this program!

http://pibphoto.nic.in/photo//2018/Jan/ ... 120251.jpg

The MPATGM will also allow DRDO some critical building blocks for launcher tech!


What program is this? Like a mobile flycatcher type setup? IAF colors? Haven't seen this before.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 12 Jan 2018 00:12

Better resolution

https://cityhubnews.files.wordpress.com/2018/01/rm-being-explained-about-aesa-based-atulya-radar-of-bel922260725.jpg

In the url it is called Atulya radar.

In this link from bel

http://bel-india.com/Documentviews.aspx?fileName=Annual%20Report%202015-16.pdf

Completion of internal evaluation of indigenous
Laser Range Finder for Air Defence application
and commencement of integration & testing
with AD Fire Control Radar – Atulya


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