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Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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Karan M
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 02:51

Good digging guys. Yes, its the Indian replacement for Flycatcher and is a LRDE-BEL program.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 03:02

Another pic also shows several interesting items. Including the ADFCR prototype.

IA just released a RFP for 66 ADFCR. Reportedly Israeli radar came L1. They have 240 Flycatchers. The potential for an Indian type is significant, even excluding the first ones being from Israel.
IAF is also looking for 61 batteries of CIWS Guns, these will again be radar directed. If LRDE/BEL join hands with some OEM for a foreign gun, the potential is huge.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 03:04

Akshay Kapoor asked for good news on the radar front and so did Gyan.

May your wishes come into real achievement fast.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 12 Jan 2018 05:22

nam wrote:Better resolution

Image

In the url it is called Atulya radar.

In this link from bel

http://bel-india.com/Documentviews.aspx?fileName=Annual%20Report%202015-16.pdf

Completion of internal evaluation of indigenous
Laser Range Finder for Air Defence application
and commencement of integration & testing
with AD Fire Control Radar – Atulya



Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 12 Jan 2018 08:06

^^^
Raises a question as to why an imported AD gun is required now? Looks like systems are in place to build an indigenous AD gun solution. Should be able to be mated with existing 23mm/40mm gun FC systems as an immediate upgrade path while a gun is being developed (or imported gun mated with this indigenous FCR).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 12 Jan 2018 08:47

Atulya looks like Indian X Band AESA integrated with Ka Band Flycatcher radar which BEL has been lic building for decade

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Jan 2018 11:07

Karan M wrote:Another pic also shows several interesting items. Including the ADFCR prototype.

IA just released a RFP for 66 ADFCR. Reportedly Israeli radar came L1. They have 240 Flycatchers. The potential for an Indian type is significant, even excluding the first ones being from Israel.
IAF is also looking for 61 batteries of CIWS Guns, these will again be radar directed. If LRDE/BEL join hands with some OEM for a foreign gun, the potential is huge.


This good, especially against Drones and PGm's, we were discussing on BRF 2 years back why AK 630 type CIWS cannot be used to protect airfields.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 12 Jan 2018 11:11

Exactly I was wondering why AK630 are not coupled with good radar for airfield defences in this tender.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2018 13:09

srai wrote:^^^
Raises a question as to why an imported AD gun is required now? Looks like systems are in place to build an indigenous AD gun solution. Should be able to be mated with existing 23mm/40mm gun FC systems as an immediate upgrade path while a gun is being developed (or imported gun mated with this indigenous FCR).

Good point. The L40/70 is a good weapon and only required a good FCS. If coupled with Flycatcher or Compass EO sight like Goalkeeper CIWS and mounted on a moveable trailer like Akash, it would be a good solution.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 13:29

ramana wrote:Exactly I was wondering why AK630 are not coupled with good radar for airfield defences in this tender.


The tender calls for a gun with programmable ammunition.

Shells for AK630 are HEI-Frag and Frag-T. They will have to develop new ammunition for the gun if its needed for the tender.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 12 Jan 2018 13:33

Karan M wrote:
ramana wrote:Exactly I was wondering why AK630 are not coupled with good radar for airfield defences in this tender.


The tender calls for a gun with programmable ammunition.

Shells for AK630 are HEI-Frag and Frag-T. They will have to develop new ammunition for the gun if its needed for the tender.


Gurus, just this query popped up in my mind. CIWS fire thousands of rounds, over sea this will not be a problem, but what if these guns are used in AD for airfields that are surrounded by local population, won't the people be in grave danger of being hit by the rounds?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 13:33

tsarkar wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Raises a question as to why an imported AD gun is required now? Looks like systems are in place to build an indigenous AD gun solution. Should be able to be mated with existing 23mm/40mm gun FC systems as an immediate upgrade path while a gun is being developed (or imported gun mated with this indigenous FCR).

Good point. The L40/70 is a good weapon and only required a good FCS. If coupled with Flycatcher or Compass EO sight like Goalkeeper CIWS and mounted on a moveable trailer like Akash, it would be a good solution.


L70 Upgrade has been inducted by IA from BEL

Image
https://www.oneindia.com/india/indian-a ... 23087.html

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 13:36

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:
The tender calls for a gun with programmable ammunition.

Shells for AK630 are HEI-Frag and Frag-T. They will have to develop new ammunition for the gun if its needed for the tender.


Gurus, just this query popped up in my mind. CIWS fire thousands of rounds, over sea this will not be a problem, but what if these guns are used in AD for airfields that are surrounded by local population, won't the people be in grave danger of being hit by the rounds?


That's always a problem and hence the regulations asking civilian buildings to be x distance away from military buildings/bases. But encroachment occurs.

Falling rounds can theoretically pose a danger to population, but there most modern rounds also have a self-destruct option beyond x/5km.

AK-630
From wiki:
Maximum firing range: the projectiles self-destruct past 5,000 m (16,000 ft) range

Remember, these are very short range systems. Take into account the angle they are firing, the targets & the risk correspondingly reduces for non-immediate targets.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 13:43

Austin wrote:Atulya looks like Indian X Band AESA integrated with Ka Band Flycatcher radar which BEL has been lic building for decade


LRDE indigenized several items regarding Flycatcher (antenna in 2000 for instance) & we have significant experience with the type thanks to Trishul program, so you are right on the dot. It is the same overall scheme /design with Indian made sub-systems. But expect significant improvements in overall performance.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kersi » 12 Jan 2018 14:34

Karthik S wrote:
Karan M wrote:
The tender calls for a gun with programmable ammunition.

Shells for AK630 are HEI-Frag and Frag-T. They will have to develop new ammunition for the gun if its needed for the tender.


Gurus, just this query popped up in my mind. CIWS fire thousands of rounds, over sea this will not be a problem, but what if these guns are used in AD for airfields that are surrounded by local population, won't the people be in grave danger of being hit by the rounds?


How many BRFites remember 6th December 1971

..
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On late evening of 6th December 1971 some PAF aircraft allegedly made attempts to "attack" Mumbai. The AA were fired off, probably from the dock / port area. A number of fragments of 40 mm shells fell all over south Mumbai. There were some injuries too.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 12 Jan 2018 15:38

Reason they have air raid siren. Warn people they are been attacked and AA will start firing . Need to take shelter.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 12 Jan 2018 15:42

For comparison Chini Truck mounted CIWS

Image

We seems to have the building blocks. Need to put them together.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2018 15:49

Karan M wrote:L70 Upgrade has been inducted by IA from BEL

This is still not a closed loop system. A radar/EO sight tracking shells in addition to target is required to correct the laying. Something done on Phalanx, Goalkeeper and Elta 2221+AK-630 combo or Lynx FC + AK630 combo mounted on an automated turret for 360 degree coverage and trailer for mobility.

This is very much doable domestically

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 12 Jan 2018 15:52

Karthik S wrote:Gurus, just this query popped up in my mind. CIWS fire thousands of rounds, over sea this will not be a problem, but what if these guns are used in AD for airfields that are surrounded by local population, won't the people be in grave danger of being hit by the rounds?

Gun and missile positions take into account zones where unexploded shells can safely fall without damage to own assets.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 12 Jan 2018 16:11

Kersi wrote:
How many BRFites remember 6th December 1971

..

On late evening of 6th December 1971 some PAF aircraft allegedly made attempts to "attack" Mumbai. The AA were fired off, probably from the dock / port area. A number of fragments of 40 mm shells fell all over south Mumbai. There were some injuries too.

Don't start me off again. It happened late night 4th Dec also also - I mean an attack warning. I listened to Indira Gandhi's "We are at war" broadcast at midnight and then there was a roar of 4 MiG 21 thundering out of Lohegaon, overflying our house in Pimpri en route to a false alarm in Mumbai. What exciting days..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 16:29

tsarkar wrote:
Karan M wrote:L70 Upgrade has been inducted by IA from BEL

This is still not a closed loop system. A radar/EO sight tracking shells in addition to target is required to correct the laying. Something done on Phalanx, Goalkeeper and Elta 2221+AK-630 combo or Lynx FC + AK630 combo mounted on an automated turret for 360 degree coverage and trailer for mobility.

This is very much doable domestically


Yes, but I was just pointing out that EO+FCS Upgrade has been done in response to the older post. A closed loop system would indeed be ideal. If we have done the Lynx FC + AK630 combo ourselves, question to ask is why cant BEL do this for the AF too? Is it IPR related?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby KBDagha » 12 Jan 2018 16:42


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Vips » 12 Jan 2018 17:16

Fantastic, was waiting for news on the annual winter cycle of tests on A3/4/and 5.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 12 Jan 2018 17:46

tsarkar wrote:
Karan M wrote:L70 Upgrade has been inducted by IA from BEL

This is still not a closed loop system. A radar/EO sight tracking shells in addition to target is required to correct the laying. Something done on Phalanx, Goalkeeper and Elta 2221+AK-630 combo or Lynx FC + AK630 combo mounted on an automated turret for 360 degree coverage and trailer for mobility.

This is very much doable domestically

High muzzle velocity and lighter turrent weight is far more critical than Rate of fire one of reasons Russians use twin 2A38 for Tunguska. Consider we have had it over a decade not sure why we cannot reverse engineer them.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 12 Jan 2018 22:34

From Kurup

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 12 Jan 2018 22:36

John wrote:
tsarkar wrote:This is still not a closed loop system. A radar/EO sight tracking shells in addition to target is required to correct the laying. Something done on Phalanx, Goalkeeper and Elta 2221+AK-630 combo or Lynx FC + AK630 combo mounted on an automated turret for 360 degree coverage and trailer for mobility.

This is very much doable domestically

High muzzle velocity and lighter turrent weight is far more critical than Rate of fire one of reasons Russians use twin 2A38 for Tunguska. Consider we have had it over a decade not sure why we cannot reverse engineer them.


With this GOI, if someone puts up a proposal, there is a good chance it will be funded.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kersi » 12 Jan 2018 23:57

shiv wrote:
Kersi wrote:
How many BRFites remember 6th December 1971

..

On late evening of 6th December 1971 some PAF aircraft allegedly made attempts to "attack" Mumbai. The AA were fired off, probably from the dock / port area. A number of fragments of 40 mm shells fell all over south Mumbai. There were some injuries too.

Don't start me off again. It happened late night 4th Dec also also - I mean an attack warning. I listened to Indira Gandhi's "We are at war" broadcast at midnight and then there was a roar of 4 MiG 21 thundering out of Lohegaon, overflying our house in Pimpri en route to a false alarm in Mumbai. What exciting days..

I do not recollect anything about 4th December but I only remember 6th December 1971, it was a Monday

Maybe on another thread we could about our experience of 1971 war

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rahul M » 13 Jan 2018 00:14

please do. how about a proper article for BR ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2018 00:48

Programmable Fuze means 40mm. Oerlikon has one such solution.

Kurup, Happy Sankranti and before Davos visit by NaMo.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 13 Jan 2018 02:26

ramana wrote:Programmable Fuze means 40mm. Oerlikon has one such solution.

Kurup, Happy Sankranti and before Davos visit by NaMo.


Original plan was for both navy and army to use Skyshield. But the proposal died after Rheinmetall got black listed it is a shame on paper it looked like a great opportunity.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 420400.htm

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 13 Jan 2018 03:06

Its been 15 years - the key missing portion is the ammunition I guess. We can manage something with a local AK-630 or some other gun, but the specialized ammunition doesn't exist within India.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 13 Jan 2018 04:14

Bofors 40mm 3P - All Target Round

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2018 04:40

Can you post in artillery thread?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby VKumar » 13 Jan 2018 07:27

Karan M wrote:
Karthik S wrote:
Gurus, just this query popped up in my mind. CIWS fire thousands of rounds, over sea this will not be a problem, but what if these guns are used in AD for airfields that are surrounded by local population, won't the people be in grave danger of being hit by the rounds?


That's always a problem and hence the regulations asking civilian buildings to be x distance away from military buildings/bases. But encroachment occurs.

Falling rounds can theoretically pose a danger to population, but there most modern rounds also have a self-destruct option beyond x/5km.

AK-630
From wiki:
Maximum firing range: the projectiles self-destruct past 5,000 m (16,000 ft) range

Remember, these are very short range systems. Take into account the angle they are firing, the targets & the risk correspondingly reduces for non-immediate targets.



During the 65 and the 71 wars, civilians were instructed to remain indoors when ack-ack was firing to prevent injuries due to shrapnel and falling pieces. Nobody paid heed as everyone gathered on rooftops to watch the tracer show! It was quite exhilarating.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby arun » 13 Jan 2018 10:50

KBDagha wrote:Agni5 ready to test...

https://twitter.com/Hemant_TNIE/status/ ... 7956106240


Going by Prasanna Simha’s post a few posts above (Clicky) which has two distinct exclusion zones, could this be a two stage missile test making this a Agni IV test rather than a Agni V Test :?:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 13 Jan 2018 11:11

No. The first zone is for the spent first, second, and third stages. The trapezoid area is the payload splash zone. Its wide enough to avoid figuring the CEP from far away. Real expected splashdown area would be classified,

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 13 Jan 2018 11:14

nam wrote:For comparison Chini Truck mounted CIWS

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-WDngnCITcIk/U ... 3%2529.jpg

We seems to have the building blocks. Need to put them together.

The "truck mounted" thing has been raised up on hydraulic stilts to hold it steady. That is not shoot as you move.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ashish raval » 13 Jan 2018 13:38

arun wrote:
KBDagha wrote:Agni5 ready to test...

https://twitter.com/Hemant_TNIE/status/ ... 7956106240


Going by Prasanna Simha’s post a few posts above (Clicky) which has two distinct exclusion zones, could this be a two stage missile test making this a Agni IV test rather than a Agni V Test :?:

Or perhaps MIRV test!! That may be exciting.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 13 Jan 2018 14:23

No it is always like that for ballistic missile tests where the ballistic reentry zone may be separated by a gap. The first part is for area where first and second stages can fall and the last separate zone is for the RV

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby vasu raya » 13 Jan 2018 21:23

Is there an overlap here with the MH370 search area?

Image

Search for MH370: Malaysia offers $70M 'no find, no fee' reward if U.S. vessel finds missing airliner

An American search vessel is en route to the Southern Indian Ocean on a new hunt for the missing MH370 airliner under an agreement with the government of Malaysia that will pay up to $70 million if the company can find the wreckage of the plane or its two flight recorders within 3 months.

Malaysian transport minister Liow Tiong Lai said Wednesday that The Seabed Constructor, operated by the Houston company Ocean Infinity, will be searching in a 9,000 square-mile area with a crew of 65, and two members of the Royal Malaysia Navy. The ship left Durban, South Africa, last week to take advantage of improving weather in the search area beginning around Jan. 17.

The agreement for a 90-day search is on a "no find, no fee" basis, the transport minister told reporters in Putrajaya, Malaysia’s federal administrative center. Malaysia will pay up to $70 million if the company is able to find the wreckage of the plane and/or both of the fight recorders.


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