Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

[JayS]

This comes from the echo chamber that Haridas ji himself created. They even used his line almost verbatim. Somebody has to show me some logic for the following two points:

1. How come we had the technology to build composite motors for lower stage and not so for the much smaller upper stage?
2. How come we had the technology to build composite motors for lower stage of Agni 3 and not so for Agni 5 which are of IDENTICAL dimensions and thrust?

Just one plausible reason for item 1, without knowing anything - miniaturization can be challenging sometimes.

[Haridas]

Haridas ji, here it is:

India test-fires longer version of surface-to-surface Agni-3 missile

Pratik Das ji, this reference is much later after second test Flight (first successful one) and is echo of my article. The said news article was within 6 weeks after the 2ed test launch.

[Katare]

It would be incredibly stupid to create a composite lower stage but keep upper stages as metallic. There is an exponential payback, in terms of payload/range/energy, for weight reduction as you go towards higher/later stages. So the natural order is to reduce the weight/improve ISP from the top of the missile and move towards first stage and at last onto strap-on boosters.

[Indranil]

Just one plausible reason for item 1, without knowing anything - miniaturization can be challenging sometimes.

Unlikely in this case (no pun intended). That's why the top stages of PSLV, Agni 4 and AGni 5 are composite, but the lower (larger) stages are not.

That is why news of an all-composite booster for Agni 4 is big. It not only good in terms of payload and range, but also cost and shelf life. It paves the way for the composite first stage of Agni 5 and Agni 6.

With Agni 4 being able to lob 1 ton to 4000+ kms and Agni 5 to 5500 kms, what is the need for Agni 3? Well, Agni 4 is tall and slim, not really amenable for transportation by road. So Agni 4 is good for rail mobility and silos. Agni 3 can just be the same missile in a different form factor 12 mtrs long and a 1.x mtr wide. Or It can be 12 mtrs long and 2 mtr long and shower petals to the same range. Interestingly K4 is exactly that! Then why would Agni 3 be any different?

Anyways, now I am echoing from my chamber. So I would stop.

[Singha]

the 1st stage would be under higher combustion pressure and gravity and hence more tough to make it composite.

[ramana]

This comes from the echo chamber that Haridas ji himself created. They even used his line almost verbatim. Somebody has to show me some logic for the following two points:

1. How come we had the technology to build composite motors for lower stage and not so for the much smaller upper stage?
2. How come we had the technology to build composite motors for lower stage of Agni 3 and not so for Agni 5 which are of IDENTICAL dimensions and thrust?

Just one plausible reason for item 1, without knowing anything - miniaturization can be challenging sometimes.

Program milestones. Using proven first stage could be program expediency. IGMP has done this in the past.

Agni TDS used to have first stage solid and second stage liquid. The objective was quick proof of concept of the RV technology. The media and US experts were derisive about this hybrid thing.

So once the composite first stage came along it was incorporated.

What was the time lag between the first and second test? Could provide a clue.

[Indranil]

Just one plausible reason for item 1, without knowing anything - miniaturization can be challenging sometimes.

Program milestones. Using proven first stage could be program expediency. IGMP has done this in the past.

Agni TDS used to have first stage solid and second stage liquid. The objective was quick proof of concept of the RV technology. The media and US experts were derisive about this hybrid thing.

So once the composite first stage came along it was incorporated.

What was the time lag between the first and second test? Could provide a clue.

Your theory is known to be true. But wouldn't Agni 5 having a 1st stage made of maraging steel while Agni 3 had a composite first stage fly in the face of it?

[ramana]

No same logic. The A5 propellant could hold a key.
It could be burning at higher pressure and they don't want to take chances.

Composite graphite epoxy winding is not easy for such large motors.

Also the range partial for first stage weight is not that great when compared to upper stages.

All are result of trade study to ensure program success.

[Indranil]

That is possible: Agni 3 and 5 use different propellants for the booster.

But I think I have posted enough number of links earlier where everybody from VK Saraswat to Avinash Chander have said the Agni 3 and Agni 5 use the same booster. For two missiles of near identical shape, size and weight, that makes perfect sense.

On other hand, I have to put many ifs-and-buts to justify that Agni 3 booster was made of composite and the upper stage was made of maraging steel. Or that Agni 5 designers threw away a perfectly tested and validated booster stage of Agni 3 and chose a less efficient and expensive stage for Agni 5 instead.

[Singha]

werent we facing some trouble (due to hidden hands abroad...) sourcing the raw material used to make composites? some japani company was finally located for the same.

[prasannasimha]

Yes we were unable to get enough carbon fibre.

[Gagan]

Reliance makes carbon fibre. A PSU company also does

[Gagan]

That is possible: Agni 3 and 5 use different propellants for the booster.

But I think I have posted enough number of links earlier where everybody from VK Saraswat to Avinash Chander have said the Agni 3 and Agni 5 use the same booster. For two missiles of near identical shape, size and weight, that makes perfect sense.

On other hand, I have to put many ifs-and-buts to justify that Agni 3 booster was made of composite and the upper stage was made of maraging steel. Or that Agni 5 designers threw away a perfectly tested and validated booster stage of Agni 3 and chose a less efficient and expensive stage for Agni 5 instead.

Also need to factor in the heavier weight of the 5.
It has a third stage on top, so needs more ISP to lift off

[Singha]

http://www.livemint.com/Companies/xLWuB ... o-HAL.html

Japanese company to resume supply of carbon fibre to HAL

K. Raghu
Comment E-mail Print Share First Published: Tue, Aug 05 2008. 11 05 PM IST
Updated: Tue, Aug 05 2008. 11 05 PM IST
Bangalore: Japanese firm Toray Industries Inc., the world’s largest producer of carbon fibre, which is used in aircraft manufacture, among other things, has lifted a 15-month ban on supply to state-owned military plane maker Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).

The ban had hit the production of HAL’s flagship Dhruv helicopters.

Toray stopped supplies in April 2007 after India tested its nuclear-capable missile Agni 3, citing concerns over potential “dual-use” applications. Dual-use technologies are those that have civil as well as defence applications.

Carbon fibre, produced from polymers, is used to make composites that are as strong as steel, but nearly half its weight. These composites are less prone to corrosion, and are used in products ranging from Formula One cars to pipes that carry petroleum products. It is also used in the manufacture of fighter planes, rockets and missiles.

“The company cannot comment on your questions and neither disclose any information on details of business about our market or customer,” Ichiro Maeda, a spokesman for Toray, said in an email response.

HAL gets the Japanese fibre treated with resins to make the so-called prepegs or composite sheets. “By beginning of next year, delivery of the (composite) prepegs will start,” said M. Fakruddin, director of corporate planning at HAL.

HAL could produce only six of the 24 Dhruv helicopters it had promised to deliver to the army in the fiscal year to March due to the ban. Dhruv is a twin-engine, multi-role helicopter used for both military and civilian transport.

“There is a challenge (for us) to make materials like carbon fibres and aluminium alloys,” HAL chairman Ashok Baweja had told a press conference in April. “(So), when the tap (or imports) shuts, we don’t look down the drain.”

Analysts say as carbon fibre technology is expensive, supplies would only ease when there is economy of scale.

“So far in India, we didn’t have a large market for carbon fibre. The market is still evolving and it will grow,” said Ratan Shrivastava, director for aerospace and defence at the India office of research firm Frost and Sullivan.

On 14 July, Mint had reported that National Aerospace Laboratory, the state-run civil aerospace lab, which has transferred home-grown technology of making carbon fibre to Kemrock Industries Ltd, is in talks with Reliance Industries Ltd to transfer the same technology to Reliance.

[Singha]

http://www.livemint.com/Home-Page/gVW7A ... fibre.html

so the japani acted tough after agni3 (1st stage composite) was tested, the NAL ToTed the tech to pvt sector, which made the japani come back pants down to sell again lest he lose whatever market share he had.

this might partially explain why A5 which was a priority proj derisked by using 1st stage steel. first test was 2012, so by 2010 it was in full engineering mode. and design would have been 2008-2010....precisely the time when japanis had imposed a ban when this was about to start

[Singha]

we may have quietly shifted to composite first stage on A5 also in subsequent tests when supply issue resolved from domestic source. or will in mass produced cansister launch now that SFC is expecting bulk delivery

[srai]

^^^
Highlights the importance of strategic independence!

[nvishal]

^

Apparently, carbon fibre is connected with strategic defence. Reliance's acquisition of kemrock industries in 2017 to produce carbon fibre composites has been tagged by news agencies local and abroad.

Reliance entry seems to be empowered by indian govt. Birla is also getting entry.

[Singha]

^^ the hawks and the have-nots always keep a watch on our strategic sectors it seems always looking to identify technology choke points to slow us down or extract a steep rent for letting us through.

[nvishal]

^

Yes

There are silent govt agencies around the world that track the production and transfer of certain elements/raw materials

The 'economy of scale' argument has been the main bottleneck. Not saying it is illogical. Just that in our case, here, being illogical is logical. ie, setup the raw material industries(of the regulated kind) even though it will make losses(because orders will be minimum).

Currently, we manufacture some nuclear components locally because of strategic necessity. I doubt these businesses ever reach a 'breakeven point'. Similarly, regulated raw materials should receive the same strategic necessity and importance. Just another cost of doing business.

[JTull]

Hmm, Japan stopping us from producing Dhruv helios at the pretext of missile that targets China. That's pretty naive on their part.

[Singha]

"someone" must have leaned hard on them. or their own hypocrisy was in full flow in clubbing us with TSP on nuclear issues earlier.

[Austin]

India Saves Its Foreign Reserves Over $5 Billion With Homegrown Akash Missiles

[Vips]

^^ The next time Japanese try to show their much abused, convenient Nuclear self righteousness and moral high ground someone should publically puke in front of them. Absolute and duplicitous ass-h***s. Would love to see their reaction when Chinese nuclear powered aircraft carriers will be near their borders.

[SaraLax]

http://www.livemint.com/Home-Page/gVW7A ... fibre.html

so the japani acted tough after agni3 (1st stage composite) was tested, the NAL ToTed the tech to pvt sector, which made the japani come back pants down to sell again lest he lose whatever market share he had.
.....

The way the "Still-a-faithfool-US-poodle' Japani behaved in terms of dictating technology denial to India .... has been par for the course for the Indian Missile Program since a long time. Read below on how an 'Europe-based-Teutonic-race-type-US-poodle' Germany was made to run with their pants down to India (to sell their exotic missiles related metal alloy after having initially denied the same to sell to India) by the Technology Development work done by MIDHANI of India.

Story of self-reliance (2011 article)

.
.
Missile development in India is a saga of self-reliance and sustained struggle, with the pioneers learning by reverse engineering and battling technology denial regimes such as the Missile Technology Control Regime (“Missile shield”, Frontline, February 13, 2009).

The MTCR, with the United States at its head, targeted India after the successful tests of the Prithvi missile in February 1988 and the Agni in May 1989. Supply of computer processor chips, radio frequency devices, electro-hydraulic components, maraging steel, magnesium alloy, gyroscopes, accelerometers, carbon fibre, glass fibre and, so on, was stopped to India.

Undaunted, the DRDO collaborated with public and private sector industries and academic institutions and developed maraging steel for rocket motors, carbon-carbon composites and resins for the re-entry vehicle of the Agni missiles, magnesium alloy, phase shifters for Rajendra radar for Akash missile, winding machines, and so on. The public sector undertaking, Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited (MIDHANI), the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory (DMRL), and private industries together developed the magnesium alloy which was denied to India by Germany. When the first plate of magnesium alloy rolled out of MIDHANI, Germany said it would give India any amount of magnesium alloy. The DRDO wrote back saying it was prepared to export the alloy to Germany ( Frontline, February 13, 2009).“The DRDO always converted challenges into opportunities,” said Chander.

My admiration & sincere congratulations to all these Indian scientists, technologists and engineers who have been slapping these first world technology deniers hard on their face for last two decades in numerous technologies and forcing them to shamelessly rush back to India with their pants pulled deep down their legs to sell their no-longer-useful-for-India technologies. This repeated slapping on the faces of these cozy group of first world countries by Indian technical community ... seems to have induced a change of mind in these technology deniers to eventually allow India into the MTCR group. What do you think ?.

[ArjunPandit]

^^ Would love to see their reaction when Chinese nuclear powered aircraft carriers will be near their borders.

OT but Dont expect any kimono shiver in masses, remember this is a nation that shrugged off tokyo firebombing, two nuke strikes and returned to the world scene. Some people and their nations dont have the habit of taking things lying down or shivering. Have interacted with a few of jingo mangos, acc to them, they are exactly waiting for that to happen, as they will then shed all inhibitions (read pretensions) and produce military equipment like honda cars (ok thats exaggeration). This time china will wake a waiting giant

[Vips]

That is precisely the point i am making of them being duplicitous. They will use all and any means to protect themselves (including uncle Sam's nuclear umbrella) but wants to impose their standards and also preach to others who want to strengthen their defence.

Regarding them being a waiting giant - I am not too sure. Remember, past record is no guarantee of future performance. They would do well if they can stop their population from shrinking and becoming a nation of the aging.

[Haridas]

It has a third stage on top, so needs more ISP to lift off

Gagan Ulla sahib, please go back to know better the basics. The above assertion is embarrassingly absurd.

[ramana]

He means more thrust which requires higher ISP for same package dimensions.

[Prem Kumar]

This is where we must take a leaf out of the China playbook. To their credit, they identified technologies/materials (like Rare Earths) that were strategic and ruthlessly went after them. Controlling/buying-out means of production, bankrupting competitors etc. Now China produces most of the world's rare earths, whereas a few decades ago, they were nowhere in the game.

The GOI (CCS), DRDO and Indian Industry must prepare a 2 decade plan for strategic technologies, materials, hardware/software etc that we MUST pursue whether its economically viable or not. Then go after it ruthlessly. Every adharmic means should be pursued if need be. Industrial espionage, hacking, kidnapping, reverse-engineering, secret-Govt-funded buyouts of strategic-but-struggling foreign firms, bribing leaders etc etc.

That's the only way to play this game.

[Indranil]

Ramana sir, Agni 3 and Agni 5 weigh almost the same. So the sum of upper stages + payload of Agni 3 and Agni 5 also weight the same. Avinash Chander had explained how they had achieved this in an interview with Broadsword. They shaved of weight with the composite casings, and different flight systems. The payload of the Agni 5 is also smaller (1 T) thanks to higher accuracy. This saved weight is nearly identical to weight of the third stage of the Agni 5.

But the Isp of Agni 5 booster may be higher than that of Agni 3 owing to technological development over the years. If true, it will provide higher delta v.

[Zynda]

This is purely speculation and my suspicion without any proof.

I think Agni-3 was structurally over engineered...probably a lot more than usual conservative approaches taken by India. Perhaps in Agni-5, with availability of better tools, the structural engineering in terms of conservatism was reduced and hence wt. reduction figures from metallic to composite components were more impressive than what is usually observed in industry. The industry benchmark numbers assume that even a metallic structure is designed to have margins close to values as prescribed by regulations.

The above combined with probably newer, lighter flight systems as ref. by IR could have yielded impressive weight savings.

For the heck of it, if someone inside ISRO re-engineers metallic A3 with current tools & udpated internal engineering practices/codes, there would be some significant weight savings compared to older design.

[prasannasimha]

It was not just carbon fibre it was also things like multiaxis 5 and more CNC machines which were denied. Local industries started to manufacture them and now we get imported ones too !

[Kashi]

That is precisely the point i am making of them being duplicitous. They will use all and any means to protect themselves (including uncle Sam's nuclear umbrella) but wants to impose their standards and also preach to others who want to strengthen their defence.

They can get preachy no doubt, especially about nukes, since they are the only country on the receiving end of two. But they usually keep it down, unlike the Western countries. The present government is much less prone to preaching that the earlier ones, probably because they recognise the dangers of reckless pandering to China that they did in the 1990s and early 2000s. Abe is also more interested in ramping up Japan's military capabilities and less prone to diplomatic preaching. Not surprising that a lot of Westerners and Sinophiles dislike him.

Regarding them being a waiting giant - I am not too sure. Remember, past record is no guarantee of future performance. They would do well if they can stop their population from shrinking and becoming a nation of the aging.

Perhaps you should have a look at the assets and weapons systems of JMSDF- the Japanese navy. Their coastguards are better equipped than navies of most countries, because of the huge coastline and isolated islands that they must defend. If PLAN sail in, thinking it will be walkover, they have another thing coming.

The ageing population is a conundrum facing all developed countries and even others such as China. Western countries believe that one way to offset an ageing population is immigration. Japan or for that matter Korea and China cannot and do not wish to go that way. So they have taken different avenues- high investment in healthcare and ageing research and also robotics. The elderly in Japan stay quite healthy for a longer time than elderly in some other countries.

But this is besides the point. In the Indian missile thread, these examples reinforce the necessity of being self-reliant, especially in the core and key technologies. No one will hand over their know-how and they will charge an arm and leg for supplies, knowing that the buyer has little choice.

[Vasu]

http://www.livemint.com/Home-Page/gVW7A ... fibre.html

The way the "Still-a-faithfool-US-poodle' Japani behaved in terms of dictating technology denial to India .... has been par for the course for the Indian Missile Program since a long time. Read below on how an 'Europe-based-Teutonic-race-type-US-poodle' Germany was made to run with their pants down to India (to sell their exotic missiles related metal alloy after having initially denied the same to sell to India) by the Technology Development work done by MIDHANI of India.

My admiration & sincere congratulations to all these Indian scientists, technologists and engineers who have been slapping these first world technology deniers hard on their face for last two decades in numerous technologies and forcing them to shamelessly rush back to India with their pants pulled deep down their legs to sell their no-longer-useful-for-India technologies. This repeated slapping on the faces of these cozy group of first world countries by Indian technical community ... seems to have induced a change of mind in these technology deniers to eventually allow India into the MTCR group. What do you think ?.

Don't think there is a need for such abuse here and getting riled up on a ten year old news is unnecessary. India and Japan are not the same India and Japan from ten years ago, and are much closer and more useful to each other today.

More than anything, this is just another good example of 'necessity is the mother of invention', especially in context of India's indigenization efforts.

[Haridas]

. They shaved of weight with the composite casings, and different flight systems. The payload of the Agni 5 is also smaller (1 T) thanks to higher accuracy. This saved weight is nearly identical to weight of the third stage of the Agni 5..

Well Agni 3 accuracy is reported by the same drdo as ~40 meter. Thus there is no or insignifcant payload weight reduction even if accuracy now becomes 10 meter. So smaller A5 payload of 1 tonne vs 3 tonne of A3 has to necessarily mean either:
1) reduced yield on tgt with reduced destruction area for given target hardness (assuming same yield to weight ratio for A3 &5 warheads) I.e. their mission is different OR
2) A3 is for more hardened tgt than A5 ( I.e. their mission is different), OR
3) for some strange reason A3 will use warheads with lower yield to weight ratio and A5 will use warhead with higher yield to weight ratio. AKA the illusory (mayic) TN that was successfully triggerred/ launched (as per R Chidambram) , but did not deliver (as per Dr Iyangar, Santhanam and some deep-throat source) in POK2 (the term launched and delivered used by DRDO press release to distinguish failed and successful mission)

All the three reason above fail the reasoning/ logic test for posing artificial constrain on Agni 3 and Agni 5 have mutually exclusive target sets or the effect of their warhead is mystically different.

IOW your hypothesis of benifit due to greater accuracy is unsound.

Throw in the culundrum why on earth A3 carry a 3 tonne single warhead? One would instead consider more reasonable that the A3 shown in public is
1) a sham and instead is meant for payload nose cone for MIRV (e.g. 3 warheads) or
2) the unitary warhead is instead much lighter than the stated 3 ton, thus missile range is much longer than advertised (corresponding to 3 ton warhead). This incidently allows enough volume in the cone for an upper stage that would amplify the range even more. (This is incidentally the reason why A5 physical envelop and weight looks similar to A3)

[Haridas]

But the Isp of Agni 5 booster may be higher than that of Agni 3 owing to technological development over the years. If true, it will provide higher delta v.

Solid booster fuel have ISP in a rathur narrow range, so the effect of any tech development will be marginal at best, unless world come to know of some revolutionary unobtainium !

In any case the booster of A3 will lift and provide similar delta-V to an evolutionary improved ISP booster. Booster force is not the issue as Gagan Ulla sahib postulated.

The key factors that play most significantly is increasing number of stages and the stage mass fraction.

[Austin]

Manu Pubby
‏Verified account @manupubby
57m57 minutes ago

The newest DRDO program to get government sanction is -

Dhruvastra - a new Air to Surface Missile Projected to be ready by 2021, allocated Rs 66.74 crore.

India has started work on a new Submarine Launched Cruise Missile in December 2017. Rs 981 crore allocated for the program that is to be completed by 2022

Interesting nugget - desi AIP development program (for conventional submarines) by DRDO is called Marinised Engineered AIP Energy Module (MAREEM). Allocated Rs 181 crore, project completion date by August 2020.

[JayS]

Interesting. New ASM. I was thinking Rudra MII is probably an ASM. Since its going on Su-30MKI and would have 200kg warhead.

[srai]

x-posting

Dhruvastra -> looks like its HELINA