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Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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rakall
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby rakall » 07 Nov 2017 18:06

abhijitm wrote:kya suspense hai? is it a grand success? should i open my wine bottle or wait?


yes..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby fanne » 07 Nov 2017 18:11

Range of 647, it can circle the whole globe and land 647 km from firing point the range is still 647 km

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 07 Nov 2017 18:15

One Q.Speed NB and Kalibir any major diff?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby krishna_krishna » 07 Nov 2017 18:18

Atleast one major difference I was able to find is structural between failed test and this, look at this look like the sections do not have empty space in between now :

https://twitter.com/band318/status/927868724249616384

Also the other diffrence I see is in the air intake also looks modified.
Last edited by krishna_krishna on 07 Nov 2017 18:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Jits » 07 Nov 2017 18:19

Can Nirbhay be used to bomb terrorist camps in POK, if yes then we can use this cheap missile instead of risking lives of our jawans for next surgical strikes. Was this the reason the US this time showed interests in selling us the armed drones ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhijitm » 07 Nov 2017 18:24

tears rolling down. mogambo khush hua. Congrats DRDO.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby rakall » 07 Nov 2017 18:33

fanne wrote:Range of 647, it can circle the whole globe and land 647 km from firing point the range is still 647 km


The DRDO official press release claims a "capability to cruise/loiter at M ~0.7".

M0.7 at 50mins roughly translates to a distance (scalar) covered of 647Km. Not a (vector) displacement..

Also today's press release implies higher cruise speeds speculated earlier of M0.8-M0.9 are probably optimistic. Similarly the max range is close to ~1000Km (based on 1hr 10min flight time on 2nd test which was fully successful), and not near ~1500kms optimistic numbers which became Wiki entries.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 07 Nov 2017 18:56

Wonder why the sudden change in engine. Was that a probable cause of failure like the stones in the original cryogenic GSLV engine ? which was an omerta to prevent people joining "the club".

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Bart S » 07 Nov 2017 19:05

Can the range be increased by extending the length etc, with the same engine, or will that be practically a new missile?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2017 19:10

Jits wrote:Can Nirbhay be used to bomb terrorist camps in POK, if yes

Yes. Amreeka did that and failed. Useless exercise

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2017 19:10

prasannasimha wrote:Wonder why the sudden change in engine. Was that a probable cause of failure like the stones in the original cryogenic GSLV engine ? which was an omerta to prevent people joining "the club".

A Indranil said they must have run out of Russian engines and decided not to buy any more

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2017 19:16

krishna_krishna wrote:https://twitter.com/band318/status/927868724249616384

Also the other diffrence I see is in the air intake also looks modified.

Excellent observation. It looks like a narrower body to fit a narrower jet rather than the broader turbofan. Also the "lack of gap" that was observed in the Tweet is because the turbofan was probably structured like any civil jet turbofan. The outer fan section is short while the inner jet part juts out at the back. The disposable rocket motor is attached to the jutting out part with the gap between fan section and jet pipe left open. This was unnecessary for desi jet engine

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby rakall » 07 Nov 2017 19:30

shiv wrote:
prasannasimha wrote:Wonder why the sudden change in engine. Was that a probable cause of failure like the stones in the original cryogenic GSLV engine ? which was an omerta to prevent people joining "the club".

A Indranil said they must have run out of Russian engines and decided not to buy any more


The key is if they have indeed changed the engine as reported, which engine (turbojet) are they using??? PTAE-7 ???

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 07 Nov 2017 19:38

so our nirbhay flies at what altitude ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2017 19:41

manjgu wrote:so our nirbhay flies at what altitude ?

Taller that the tarrest mountain
Deepel than the deepest ocean

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2017 19:42

rakall wrote:The key is if they have indeed changed the engine as reported, which engine (turbojet) are they using??? PTAE-7 ???

Kookal search reveals PTAE with thrust of 380 kg which is close enough to the 400 kg quoted for Nirbhay

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 07 Nov 2017 19:47

manjgu wrote:so our nirbhay flies at what altitude ?


Today's flew 100m.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby rakall » 07 Nov 2017 19:52

manjgu wrote:so our nirbhay flies at what altitude ?


Max cruise altitude is 6km.. (based on specs of Manik Turbofan and "Small Gas Turbojet engine (SGTJE)" as quoted in some DRDO literature)
Minimum cruise/loiter altitude is 100m.. (Ref: today"s press release)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 07 Nov 2017 20:09

shiv wrote:
Jits wrote:Can Nirbhay be used to bomb terrorist camps in POK, if yes

Yes. Amreeka did that and failed. Useless exercise


Shiv ji, you even said 450kg warhead CM will not be of much use as well when talking about targeting strategic points in China. What scenarios you believe CMs will be useful, atleast in our context.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Mollick.R » 07 Nov 2017 20:14

Deleted

Found Karthick sir already posted it.
Last edited by Mollick.R on 07 Nov 2017 20:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Mollick.R » 07 Nov 2017 20:18

A nitpick observed :D

Date :- Kartika 16, 1939. :D

#JingoKhushHua
#DhmarmicBhartiyaKhushHua

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 07 Nov 2017 20:29

Mollick.R wrote:A nitpick observed :D

Date :- Kartika 16, 1939. :D

#JingoKhushHua
#DhmarmicBhartiyaKhushHua


I have seen Parliamentary reports also having Desi Panchang dates.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Mollick.R » 07 Nov 2017 20:39

Few points :-
1. So the range was only 647 km (or i'm missing some thing)

2. It was GPS guided, not IRNSS

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 07 Nov 2017 20:43

Karthik S wrote:
shiv wrote:Yes. Amreeka did that and failed. Useless exercise


Shiv ji, you even said 450kg warhead CM will not be of much use as well when talking about targeting strategic points in China. What scenarios you believe CMs will be useful, atleast in our context.

Pinpoint targets. Radar sites. Control & Comm centers, power stations, bridges, ships, ammo dumps

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 07 Nov 2017 21:12

As the americans are wont to say, put it through a window. A 450kg warhead will be plenty useful. That is a hsld, saaw level warhead right there.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby negi » 07 Nov 2017 21:12

PTAE-7 is iffy imo as it has a very high SFC (1.15 kg./kg.f/hr) as against about <0.7 kg/(kgf∙h) for NPO-Saturn's 36MT so despite thrust figures being close range and loiter time will be have to be compromised ; not that we should let the perfect come in the way of good but then if PTAE-7 indeed works for Nirbhay then I would ask why was 36MT even in the mix .
Last edited by negi on 07 Nov 2017 21:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gagan » 07 Nov 2017 21:15

Why can’t the mijjile do a Brahmos istyle bharata-natyam by phyrring three rockets from the tip to suddenly bring it to a horizontal position?

On a serious note,
Congratulations to DRDO and everyone involved!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JTull » 07 Nov 2017 21:25

Gagan wrote:Why can’t the mijjile do a Brahmos istyle bharata-natyam by phyrring three rockets from the tip to suddenly bring it to a horizontal position?

On a serious note,
Congratulations to DRDO and everyone involved!


Brahmos has an air-intake at the front which needs to be opened up.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 07 Nov 2017 21:26

negi wrote:PTAE-7 is iffy imo as it has a very high SFC (1.15 kg./kg.f/hr) as against about <0.7 kg/(kgf∙h) for NPO-Saturn's 36MT so despite thrust figures being close range and loiter time will be have to be compromised ; not that we should let the perfect come in the way of good but then if PTAE-7 indeed works for Nirbhay then I would ask why was 36MT even in the mix .


Why should a cruise missile loiter for whatever amount of time. Isn't the objective hitting a target.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gagan » 07 Nov 2017 21:31

JTull wrote:
Gagan wrote:Why can’t the mijjile do a Brahmos istyle bharata-natyam by phyrring three rockets from the tip to suddenly bring it to a horizontal position?

On a serious note,
Congratulations to DRDO and everyone involved!


Brahmos has an air-intake at the front which needs to be opened up.

Yes and no
They will have a cap on the nirbhay too when it is sub launched. They can put in the same mechanism into that nose cap

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 07 Nov 2017 21:36

People worried about the range afforded by the turbojet. Please don't worry. There are multiple 300-400 DaN turbofans in design and validation. There is no point in stalling the project till they are ready.

The cruise missile doesn't have to do the dances of a fighter plane. Whenever, one of the turbofans become available, it will be fitted and tested. This is not a big deal.

The turbojets are just a stopgap to continue testing. Increasing range by decreasing LRU weights, increasing fuel fraction, using better SFC engines will be a continuous saga. They have to get the functional systems correct and reliable first.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Nov 2017 21:46

Congratulations to the DRDO scientists and engineers working hard on this program. It's important to put pressure to deliver, but all the more important not to quit. We may have failures in future but the most imp thing for us will be to not quit such programs and continue to persist.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 07 Nov 2017 21:47

Indranil wrote:People worried about the range afforded by the turbojet. Please don't worry. There are multiple 300-400 DaN turbofans in design and validation. There is no point in stalling the project till they are ready.

The cruise missile doesn't have to do the dances of a fighter plane. Whenever, one of the turbofans become available, it will be fitted and tested. This is not a big deal.

The turbojets are just a stopgap to continue testing. Increasing range by decreasing LRU weights, increasing fuel fraction, using better SFC engines will be a continuous saga. They have to get the functional systems correct and reliable first.


Indranil, can engines be replaced enmasse from TJ powered missiles to TF powered?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Nov 2017 21:54

A very short summary of the differences between TJ v/s TF

Diff between TJ and TF

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 07 Nov 2017 22:14

Meanwhile Rajat pandit and TOI are claiming it to be India's first nuclear capable missile.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 550465.cms

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby negi » 07 Nov 2017 22:33

Indranil on 'project stalling point' if this flight was indeed powered by the PTAE-7 then why were we even using Saturn engine all this long ? We could have finalized upon this from very beginning until the MANIK came online.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby negi » 07 Nov 2017 22:39

Brahmos is ram jet powered it requires the missile to be accelerated above Mach 1 before the main motor kicks in ; so when you employ a VLS you have to get the missile air-frame aligned correctly prior to main SRB kicking so that you get to ram jet phase in most efficient manner. Nirbhay has no such needs .
Last edited by negi on 07 Nov 2017 22:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 07 Nov 2017 22:40

negi wrote:Indranil on 'project stalling point' if this flight was indeed powered by the PTAE-7 then why were we even using Saturn engine all this long ? We could have finalized upon this from very beginning until the MANIK came online.


You think a missile with 600km range had got sanctioned if indeed the range limjt is due to SFC.? Since when we were that smart in program management anyway..? Without promise of going to moon even a bicycle project wouldnt get sanctioned in India. It has to be "world-class" on paper. :wink:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 07 Nov 2017 22:41


nam
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 07 Nov 2017 22:43

Pratyush wrote:
Why should a cruise missile loiter for whatever amount of time. Isn't the objective hitting a target.


Target of Opportunity, like the ones available in latest Tomahawks.


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