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Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 25 Sep 2017 23:14

Can we get to topic please?
All philosophy of arms development can elsewhere.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby fanne » 25 Sep 2017 23:24

A 2000KM or 4000 KM conventional CM can have practical usage. If CHICOM try to say bomb delhi (which is 1000 KM from their border, well within reach of their cruise missile) we can reply back the favor. In both cases damage/impact on war will be minimal but the point will be made.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 26 Sep 2017 00:46

Why India’s Astra Air-To-air Missile Is Special
https://defenceaviationpost.com/indias- ... e-special/

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 26 Sep 2017 01:19

darshhan wrote:
Gyan wrote:TOTAL BUDGET NIRBHAY Rs 50 Crores
Cost of one Harpoon or Brahmos to India Rs. 40 stores.


Isnt Brahmos like close to 3 million usd(approx INR 20 cr). Which is still a lot.

Foreign weapon systems will always cost you a lot.


FMS Deal of Harpoons was around US$ 10 million each. Exact price of Brahmos is not clear but I think it's around US$ 6 million.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 26 Sep 2017 01:43

Rakesh wrote:Why India’s Astra Air-To-air Missile Is Special
https://defenceaviationpost.com/indias- ... e-special/



The fighter tracks the target continuously on its radar, and steers the missile towards it over a data link.

...

The Astra is fired from the Russian Vympel launcher — a rail under a fighter aircraft’s wing from which the missile hangs.

The Vympel launcher is integrated with all four of India’s current generation fighters — the Su-30MKI, MiG-29, Mirage 2000 and the Tejas — allowing the Astra to be fired from all of them.


Interesting details.

Seven missiles fired by the SU-30MKI against pilotless targets I guess the Banshee type? and all seven destroyed.
The missile seeker switches on ~15km from target.
Fuze is radio proximity triggering shrapnel from warhead. Not the continuous rod type warhead.

The Vympel launcher is integrated on four IAF aircraft : Su-30MKI, Mig-29, Mirage 2000, and the Tejas LCA.
This means the Astra can be launched from all these four aircraft.
Also means the fighter radar will work with the missile guidance via data link.

All four have the same data link?



I think it will be true Make In India project.

---

Initial 2004 article in Hindu announcing the Astra program:

DRDL to develop Astra missile
M. Somasekhar





Hyderabad , June 16

INDIAN defence scientists have embarked on a Rs 1,000-crore national project to develop Astra — the beyond visual range (BVR) class of missile that would be capable of beating radar eyes and hitting enemy targets located at ranges up to 80 km distance.

The Union Government had recently okayed the futuristic project, which will be guided and led by the Hyderabad-based Defence Research & Development Laboratory (DRDL), according to its Director, Mr Prahlada.

The indigenously developed Astra missile is estimated to cost Rs 3-5 crore. It would be at the high-end of tactical missiles, and propel India into the exclusive club of countries (the US, Russia, France and Israel), to possess such missiles, Mr Prahlada told Business Line.

The development phase of the missile would be taken up in a consortia led by DRDL. Several missile labs, public sector units such as HAL, ECIL and a good number of private companies would be involved in the fabrication of important components and systems integration, Dr Prahlada said.

Project Astra signals a continuum in the two-decade old Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP), which has seen the development of five different missiles — Agni, Prithvi, Trishul, Akash and Nag, gone through several ups and downs and is now in a consolidation phase.

Encouraged by the technical and systems integration expertise gained in the programme, the laboratory is confident that the Astra missile can be developed and delivered to the user in six years. Astra will weigh 150 kg, making it the lightest in its class.

The US has a similar missile but heavier, while Israel also has a BVR, but the range is comparatively shorter. The first flight of the Astra is slated for the end of 2004 from the Interim Test Range in Balasore.

The missile can be launched after receiving a signal from the far away target and it will seek and home-in using a complex range of on-board manoeuvres based on radio frequency (RF). Efforts would be made to interface it with the Light Combat Aircraft.

Mr Prahlada said: "The Indian missile programme is now confident of delivering a quality missile to the stringent requirements of the user (Indian defence forces) and there was no need to look for imports, which were fraught with problems. Indigenous missiles are cheaper, can be easily maintained, technologically upgraded, features which are not possible in imported ones".

Interestingly, for the Astra project, interest from some advanced countries and multinational corporations to join hands has been forthcoming. However, a decision on this has to be taken at the highest level in the Union Government.


So except time and cost the program did deliver all and more than promised. I did not find if the program was funded as planned in 2004. And what design changes were there along the way. I think 2011 the whole design was changed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby fanne » 26 Sep 2017 01:45

We have details of SU30MKI and LCA radar to interface. I have seen no report about MIG20/Mirage 200o radars.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 26 Sep 2017 01:50

The key is the datalink from aircraft to Astra.

Wonder if that data link can transmit to guided bombs?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cybaru » 26 Sep 2017 01:51

Rafale has already been slated for Astra integration. See Rakesh's post in Rafale thread. Safe to extrapolate that same may be true for M2k.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 26 Sep 2017 02:12

ramana wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Why India’s Astra Air-To-air Missile Is Special
https://defenceaviationpost.com/indias- ... e-special/


Interesting details.

I typed the above sitting in my car and was in a rush. So sorry, I did not post the article or a snippet.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 26 Sep 2017 02:32

Not a problem. The page doesn't freeze!!!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 26 Sep 2017 03:30

Indranil The data link thing is first time I am reading.

Have you seen this before?

Do they mean the fighter radar data is fed into the Vympel launcher rail before being launched?

Or do they mean the Astra reads the reflected radar signal from target and homes?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 26 Sep 2017 05:31

Army orders surface to air missile, making it the first tri-service weapon
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 988_1.html

A year ago, the army was planning “surgical strikes” across the India-Pakistan Line of Control (LoC) to avenge the killing of 19 Indian soldiers near Uri, on September 18. But Pakistani retaliation was anticipated and a key Indian Air Force (IAF) base, protected only by aging Soviet-era missiles, was vulnerable to Pakistani air strikes. There was only one option. In Hyderabad, Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) was putting the finishing touches on a potent new missile – the eponymous Medium Range Surface to Air Missile, or MR-SAM – which the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO) has just developed.

The die was cast. Without fanfare, the IAF’s first MR-SAM squadron was airlifted to the vulnerable base – a vote of confidence based on recent firing trials. When Indian commandos crossed on LoC on the night of September 28, 2016, the brand new missile was ready for operational use. On Monday, the army signalled its confidence in the MR-SAM, signing a contract in Hyderabad that requires the DRDO to develop an army version of the MR-SAM and BDL to build and supply it. A defence ministry release stated, “The contract was signed for production, deliveries and product support of MR-SAM system for the Indian Army.”

The MR-SAM and its naval version, called the LR-SAM (Long-Range Surface to Air Missile), were developed by the DRDO in partnership with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI). DRDO developed about 30 per cent of these missile platforms, while IAI developed the bulk of it. This makes these missile platforms the first tri-service weapon in service with India’s military. There are only minor differences: the naval LR-SAM is fired from sealed canisters below warship decks that protect the missile from the corrosive marine environment. The LR-SAM primarily targets sea-skimming, anti-ship missiles.

The IAF version of the MR-SAM is mounted on trailers, and is fired from the open at enemy fighters screaming in to attack air bases. The army version, which provides protection against enemy ground attack aircraft, will be mounted on high-mobility vehicles that can keep up with tank columns moving cross-country. The missiles are the same for all versions, except for the software that controls their “self-destruct” function. The LR-SAM, which is a sea-skimming missile, self-destructs simply by pitching its nose down and plunging into the sea. The MR-SAM, which would be mainly used over land, is required to “pitch up” before it self-destructs, so that the debris are scattered.

DRDO sources claim the cost of Rs 6 crore per missile is cheap, given that it shoots down sophisticated fighters costing hundreds of crore; and protects warships that cost thousands of crore. All three versions of the missile have a sophisticated central radar – called the Multi-function and Search and Track Alert Radar (MF-STAR). This detects incoming enemy aircraft and missiles that are well over a hundred kilometres away, and then guides the missile to the target, intercepting it at ranges out to 70 kilometres.

The MR-SAM contract was signed in 2009, but complex technological challenges have caused delays. In May 2016, Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence said in a report that the MR-SAM project has been delayed by 4 years. In another report dated March 2017, the Standing Committee stated the MR-SAM project cost a total of Rs 10,076 crore. Of this, the DRDO’s share, which constituted the development cost, added up to Rs 1,680 crore. The remaining amount, which amounted to Rs 8,396 crore, was committed by the IAF towards the guaranteed purchase of missiles and other systems.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 26 Sep 2017 06:58

the missile is initially guided by the aircrafts radar and in the last stage by its own... which IMHO means its more immune to jamming by enemy a/c..gives less reaction time to enemy a/c to react... this data link is also a special feature of Meteor. Not sure if AStra has pulsed motor ( which is again speciality of meteor, giving it more range).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby chola » 26 Sep 2017 07:10

Rakesh wrote:Why India’s Astra Air-To-air Missile Is Special
https://defenceaviationpost.com/indias- ... e-special/


Great read but I am a wee bit worried about this:

Astra components that have been developed indigenously. But the missile’s seeker head is still imported.


I’m pretty sure we tested an indigenous seeker on the Astra earlier this summer.

Hopefully the article is wrong in this count otherwise the seeker would be a variant of the one on the R77 and all its attendant problems — CAG found that half of the R77 tested by IAF did not home to target. Shelf-life was accused of being extremely short.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby chola » 26 Sep 2017 07:29

manjgu wrote:the missile is initially guided by the aircrafts radar and in the last stage by its own... which IMHO means its more immune to jamming by enemy a/c..gives less reaction time to enemy a/c to react... this data link is also a special feature of Meteor. Not sure if AStra has pulsed motor ( which is again speciality of meteor, giving it more range).


No, not ideal. It means the pilot has to paint and maintain lock on the target with his radar for most of missile’s flight. This means vulnerability to the guy firing the missile since the lock gives away his position and maintaining lock limits his ability to maneuver. Therefore such an AAM would not be a fire and forget weapon like the AMRAAM where inertial guidance and intermittent datalink take over immediately after launch so the pilot can break lock and be free to maneuver again.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 26 Sep 2017 07:41

a missile travelling at 4000 kmph at ranges of 50 to 60 kms... barely 1 or 2 seconds issue... i think there are tradeoffs ... less jamming, less reaction time to enemy ac....

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 26 Sep 2017 07:45

the lock can hopefully be provided by a third party as well ( not sure)...

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 26 Sep 2017 07:50

chola..there is nothing like a true fire and forget missile. the probability of kill of such a missile is less that what astra or meteor seeks to accomplish..as i said its a trade off... between various parameters... astra is also a Fire forget missile if fired within its independent seeker range..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 26 Sep 2017 08:48

manjgu wrote:chola..there is nothing like a true fire and forget missile. the probability of kill of such a missile is less that what astra or meteor seeks to accomplish..as i said its a trade off... between various parameters... astra is also a Fire forget missile if fired within its independent seeker range..

Pakistani missiles???

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 26 Sep 2017 09:39

a) sorry about maths 1 or 2 sec. 60 Km at 3600 kmph will be about 1 min... b) missile design espicially air to air is a tradeoff across range, maneuverability, kill probability. Do u think Paki missiles are some Brahamastra..they suffer from same constraints, tradeoffs... "There is a common misconception about most modern BVR missiles, especially the AIM-120 AMRAAM. It is regarded as a fire-and-forget weapon, and it does have a mode to do just that. Basically it takes the targeting data from the aircraft’s radar and calculates where the target “should be” when it arrives in the target area.

It then flies out to that area using its own inertial navigation system. Once there, the missile’s small radar seeker, which has far less range and scanning capability than the radar on the fighter that fired it, starts to look for the bad guy. If said bad guy is within the AMRAAM radar’s cone of detection it can lock on and attack.

The problem is that at intermediate and medium ranges, fire-and-forget performance is abysmal. If the target is not where the missile thought it would be, within a limited cone of the sky, it’s a miss. As such, this mode is more effective for defensive shots as anything else or for shots taken at close ranges where there is less flight time in which the enemy can change course, altitude and tactics."

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 26 Sep 2017 09:45

chola the story is early version. Astra was tested with Indian seeker.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 26 Sep 2017 09:45

ramana wrote:The key is the datalink from aircraft to Astra.

Wonder if that data link can transmit to guided bombs?


Its midcourse update link every BVR needs that be it SARH or ARH types.

Even ARH are active only during last 10-15 km of their flight depending on target size which is true F&F for most part they need to be guided to target via aircraft radar or external

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prabhug » 26 Sep 2017 12:16

Is the radar proximity fuse the same in Akash ???

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby jamwal » 26 Sep 2017 13:26

Many articles claim that Akash is nuclear capable. Considering that 2 of Indians bombs tested in 1999 were 0.2 and 0.5 kt, isn't it possible that this claim is true ?

If yes, do we really need this capability ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gaur » 26 Sep 2017 16:20

^^
IIRC, the stupidity had started with a TOIlet article. We all had a good laugh about it back then. Unfortunately, but as expected, it got picked up by other DDMs. Don't think there is anything more to it than that.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 26 Sep 2017 22:15

jamwal wrote:Many articles claim that Akash is nuclear capable. Considering that 2 of Indians bombs tested in 1999 were 0.2 and 0.5 kt, isn't it possible that this claim is true ?

If yes, do we really need this capability ?

The video below explains why it is difficult to get warhead with the 35 cm diameter of the Akash. The best method to make it smaller would be to use a near-critical mass ( a huge waste of nuclear material) and surround it with a minimum thickness of explosive to get a subkiloton fizzle - throwing around a whole lot of unfissioned Pu.

Of course warheads as little as 6-8 inches (for artillery shells) have been made (US/USSR) but I doubt if India would have any use for a nuclear warhead on Akash.

That apart THIS GRAPH shows the weight to radius ratio of nuke warheads. Not sure if the weight can be as low as 60 kg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxJvLNrZzdU

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby vasu raya » 26 Sep 2017 22:38

Indian Army might get Pinaka rockets to counter Pakistan's mini-nuclear weapons

"The Pakistanis have been flaunting their tactical nukes which they have developed with the help of the Chinese. At present, we don't have these weapons in our arsenal but if asked by the government, we have the option of developing the Pinaka guided rockets for delivering nuclear warheads at small ranges," government sources told Mail Today.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kit » 27 Sep 2017 01:47

jamwal wrote:Many articles claim that Akash is nuclear capable. Considering that 2 of Indians bombs tested in 1999 were 0.2 and 0.5 kt, isn't it possible that this claim is true ?

If yes, do we really need this capability ?


One has to remember the true lineage of the Akash as it was derived from Russian SA-6 Gainful . Reportedly the SA 6 was indeed armed with nuclear warheads (appxly 130 kg) during the cold war and deployed in certain regions of the Warsaw Pact. TOI was in a sense right that Akash could also be similarly armed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby pravula » 27 Sep 2017 01:57

vasu raya wrote:Indian Army might get Pinaka rockets to counter Pakistan's mini-nuclear weapons

"The Pakistanis have been flaunting their tactical nukes which they have developed with the help of the Chinese. At present, we don't have these weapons in our arsenal but if asked by the government, we have the option of developing the Pinaka guided rockets for delivering nuclear warheads at small ranges," government sources told Mail Today.


:rotfl: are we going to ripple fire 20~50 tactical nukes?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby vasu raya » 27 Sep 2017 02:27

There is a mode for firing a single rocket as well, the Mk2 with range that exceeds 60km can be used preemptively on any Nasr batteries, maybe then there is no spillover of nuclear material to terrorists either

for context, you should see the reaction from Indian establishment when last year's Uri attack killed 19 soldiers and they responded with surgical strikes, this year that kind of repeat attack was pre-empted few days back and so far only a warning emanated.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 27 Sep 2017 04:05

ramana wrote:The key is the datalink from aircraft to Astra.

Wonder if that data link can transmit to guided bombs?

My knowledge of datalinks is limited. But, I know some basics of aerial duels.

You can fire-and-forget a BVR against a lumbering target without a radar. But, if you fire-and-forget a BVR against a modern fighter, you might as well just forget it. So, all BVRs have datalinks to send corrections in very short bursts. The differentiator these days is whether the datalink is uni directional or bidirectional.

Very little information of Astra's datalink is available in the public domain. But we know how discerning IAF is about its weapons. It will not accept a substandard missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 27 Sep 2017 12:34

Since we are on the topic of data links. Would it be possible for the launch plat form to shut off it's radar and use the radar and data links from AEW or another aircraft to provide firing solution and launch the missile.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 27 Sep 2017 13:44

Pratyush...thats what is the speciality of Meteor..that it can receive input from a 3rd party... another aircraft of a AEW !!!! now its not "fire and forget" ..now its "fire and think" !!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 27 Sep 2017 14:01

MBRL: salvoes must be used to deter the Paki arty attacks which have become de rigueur .Smerch too if need be to take out whatever we wish at longer ranges. The ER PInaka must be testfired in the direction west.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 27 Sep 2017 15:12

Pratyush wrote:Since we are on the topic of data links. Would it be possible for the launch plat form to shut off it's radar and use the radar and data links from AEW or another aircraft to provide firing solution and launch the missile.


No. As discussed earlier, the data the missile gets needs to be precise enough so that when it turns its own seeker on (terminal flight), it actually has the target in its fov at a detectable range. A large surveillance radar, potentially hundreds of kms away from the target, while great for the mission it is designed for, is not precise enough for a fire control radar purpose when dealing with an AAM sensor. The meteor can be updated, using FCR data from another fighter but the data feeding in needs to be of high enough quality for it to actually prosecute its mission. This is why fighters still have Fire Control Radars and use them despite having AWACS cover. AWACS searches large volume of air-space, tracks red and blue forces, and guides the fighers to an intercept. But that intercept still occurs using the fighter aircrafts fire-control radar.

Sensor performance is still limited by design weight, diameter of the missile, power and cooling availability and also cost. Any add ons, such as GPS/INS, one-way or two-way data-links, other electronics compete for this space. This determines seeker performance and through it, the errors that the missile seeker (provided kinematic performance) can compensate for. The entire goal of aircraft to missile communication via periodic or mid-course updates is to make sure that when the missile goes active, it has the target within its FOV, where that fov and range is determined by seeker performance. For a SAM with 2X the diameter, many times the design length and weight margin, this may be different (more powerful seeker, more motor to make course corrections, larger aperture front end etc etc), hence they can be cued by radars operating at lower frequencies (L and S band radars are quite common with SAM systems) but for an AAM it needs to get the best possible data because your margins are rather limited, even more so if the target RCS is controlled.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 27 Sep 2017 22:05

brar_w ... while i defer to your superior knowledge on radars BUT ..the AWACS does get fix on position of enemy aircrafts quite accurately so as to be able to guide self fighters to it ..and position self fighters in a tactically advantageous position wrt enemy. The missile only needs to be guided by the AWACS so that the enemy a/c is in the missile own seeker envelope not that the missile has to be guided right till the enemy a/c. The AWACS IMHO is quite capable of positioning a intelligent missile ( ie with data links) in a position where the missile can guide itself in the 'forget' mode upto the enemy.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 27 Sep 2017 22:08

the Meteor manufacturers claim that it can be guided by AWACS or self fighters ( 3rd party).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 27 Sep 2017 22:22

manjgu wrote:the Meteor manufacturers claim that it can be guided by AWACS or self fighters ( 3rd party).


Yeah but as long as you can provide tracking quality data that takes the missile to a box where its own Radar FOV would just pick the target there on remains to be seen, That is pretty much possible for any BVR missile with 2 way datalink , meteor is no exception but how much is that practically possible the 3rd party stuff in real BVR environment where Jammers/EW , Advanced warning via RWR and even passive detection system comes into play remains to be seen.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 27 Sep 2017 22:24

Meteor manufacturers have marketed well. Don't fall for all those brochures.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 27 Sep 2017 22:25

Austin...i am just restricting my argument to the following ' can a AWACS guide a intelligent missile so that the enemy is in missiles own FOV '. Rest all is ofc dependent on other variables.


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