Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Dec 2017 22:59

Philip, IAF has been on this trail of accurate dumb bomb delivery since Kargil and has achieved quite a bit of success. Now the emphasis is on hard target destruction.
There are many articles from defense reporters like Shiv Aroor that describe the accuracy. Eg. 10 m with the Mig 27 upgrade.
We have seen pictures of LCA Chitradurg trials.
In fact the DRDO developing a 1000 kg bomb shows how serious is the IAF about this. So far it has been the 1000 lb MC and 450 kg HSLD etc.

I just want to hear about electronic fuzes for these being developed by DRDO and made.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 08 Dec 2017 00:09

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Dec 2017 05:19

The show mentions A5 as upto 8K range and being 3 MIRVed

Coming from DD ,would assume this to be the true picture of A5

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Dec 2017 09:20

thats what the chinese media backed by their analysts were saying after the first test. I do believe them.

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 08 Dec 2017 09:56

shiv wrote:
Arun.prabhu wrote:
Yes, it is. Our likely opposition are Pakistan and China. Our inventory needs to support a war that lasts about a month or so for a short affair or a years long bloodbath for a long one. 400 is entirely too inadequate.
I think the number should be seen in the context of how wars are fought and the resources that can be put to use in war.

I had posted the stats here long ago and can't recall exactly but in the Gulf war 80% of the bombs used by the US were dumb bombs. 20% smart/guided

In Kargil only 6 LGBs were used compared to thousands in dumb bombs.

I would expect that the dumb bomb to guided munition ration that the IAF would use is more like 50:1 rather than 4:1 like the US. The Brahmos is a precision guided missile with a specific application. It will never work against area targets. It will also be an utter waste if used against targets within 30-50 km of the border. So the Brahmos has a "range zone" and a "type of target" zone that it will be used for.

Remember that in theory just 20 Brahmos missiles can cripple an enemy navy. 30 Brahmos missiles can take out most radars and C&C centers in a given front. So they will be used judiciously and not like Pinaka.

With a 300 kilometre range, the missiles are going to have to be based close to the border to have decent range behind enemy lines and the enemy is going to be hunting for the launchers, the supply vehicles, command and control, etc. Anyways, I found a more accurate number elsewhere when I sent searching on the internet and I'm satisfied with that.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 08 Dec 2017 09:56

I don't see how they can fit 3 MIRVs, but 8k seems reasonable - IMO a special edition with all composite motors and ~500kg payload should be able to reach the land of the free via the south pole.

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 08 Dec 2017 17:25

^ the last agni test - was the launch video ever published ? That would give a clue-(Ogival versus pointed nosecone). I don't remeber seeing one and probably was done with a good reason.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 08 Dec 2017 18:44

It is that time of the year when Indian navy ship is sent south in the Indian Ocean of the African coast to record the impact point of the Agni 4 and 5. Any news article when the next tests are scheduled? It has been nearly a year since the last ones.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 08 Dec 2017 18:45

Harpoon missile in service with IAF Jaguar. 500 & 1000 lbs bombs also on display As well as Matra 155 pod for 68 mm rockets. The Indian Jaguar is the last Western origin fighter to carry rockets.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Spokesperson ... 56/photo/1

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Dec 2017 19:01

^^^
Hawk AJT can do rockets, but from training pov is it necessary anymore that fighters are no longer being integrated with rockets?

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 08 Dec 2017 19:06

Don't we have to first test smaller MIRV nukes? Or can it be done without anyone knowing and be passed of as some minor earthquake.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 08 Dec 2017 19:13

srai wrote:^^^
Hawk AJT can do rockets, but from training pov is it necessary anymore that fighters are no longer being integrated with rockets?

Guided standoff weapons like US SDB and Indian SAAW have negated the need for rockets for fighters.

The rocket run by fighters is very predictable and that makes them vulnerable to short range missiles like Akash/Spyder/SPADA/RBS-70 and even MANPADS like Stingers & Mistrals.

Helicopters still do need rockets to target low value but high priority targets like bunkers and sangars, trucks & jeeps. These rockets have evolved into laser guided ones.

Helicopters can manoeuver in any direction unlike fighters, and have DIRCM, so less vulnerable than fighters to MANPADS.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Dec 2017 19:20

tsarkar wrote:
srai wrote:^^^
Hawk AJT can do rockets, but from training pov is it necessary anymore that fighters are no longer being integrated with rockets?
Guided standoff weapons like US SDB and Indian SAAW have negated the need for rockets for fighters.

The rocket run by fighters is very predictable and that makes them vulnerable to short range missiles like Akash/Spyder/SPADA/RBS-70 and even MANPADS like Stingers & Mistrals.

Helicopters still do need rockets to target low value but high priority targets like bunkers and sangars, trucks & jeeps. These rockets have evolved into laser guided ones.

Helicopters can manoeuver in any direction unlike fighters, and have DIRCM, so less vulnerable than fighters to MANPADS.

Yes, that was my question if Hawk AJT still need to train pilots on rockets or not since it's on its way out. Does the IAF still train its rookie pilots to fire rockets on the Hawk AJT?

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Dec 2017 19:33

Rockets are not going anywhere. Now you have Laser guided, making them even more useful.

And you can carry many of them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Dec 2017 20:53

"Rockets on the way out" is simply Amreeki hawa blowing over BRF on the lines of F-35 will be the last manned fighter. The US is beginning to take delivery of laser guided rockets. India has huge stocks of dumb rockets and a pod of 18 rockets is likely cheaper (for us) than a single guidance kit. We will be using dumb rockets for decades. I promise to remain alive till 2022 for people to thumb their noses at me and say I was wrong. No long term prediction that can only be verified only after I (and probably most others) am/are dead.

Arun.prabhu · Post by **Arun.prabhu** » 08 Dec 2017 21:17

shiv wrote:"Rockets on the way out" is simply Amreeki hawa blowing over BRF on the lines of F-35 will be the last manned fighter. The US is beginning to take delivery of laser guided rockets. India has huge stocks of dumb rockets and a pod of 18 rockets is likely cheaper (for us) than a single guidance kit. We will be using dumb rockets for decades. I promise to remain alive till 2022 for people to thumb their noses at me and say I was wrong. No long term prediction that can only be verified only after I (and probably most others) am/are dead.

It’s cheaper for them as well. I think even with laser guided kit, they managed to get 70mm rockets prices down to the low ten thousands per unit.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 08 Dec 2017 21:17

No one in an official capacity has ever said (to the best of my knowledge) that "rockets are on their way out". Precision guided rockets are part of the US Army rotary winged fleet, and have as recently as this summer been successfully integrated and deployed on the USAF F-16 and A-10s, and USMC AV-8Bs. USMC is also in the process of certifying it on their Hornet and perhaps even the USNs Super Hornet fleet. In fact the arrival of the APKWS in large numbers has led to a major increase in procurement of kits for all sort of fixed, rotary and unmanned aircraft going forward leading its manufacturer to invest in upnual annual kit production rate to 20,000.

http://www.baesystems.com/en-us/article ... s-on-f-16s
http://www.janes.com/article/72712/usmc ... -18-hornet

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Dec 2017 23:58

nam, Rockets are still the cost effective standoff weapons. Having said that the old 60 lbs rockets were slow and ineffective.
Later came the high velocity rockets which were better. Now laser guidance front ends make them even more effective weapons.

See brar_w links above.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Dec 2017 00:01

shiv, Dont say that. We want you to live long and be the eminence grise!!!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 09 Dec 2017 00:58

shiv wrote:"Rockets on the way out" is simply Amreeki hawa blowing over BRF on the lines of F-35 will be the last manned fighter. The US is beginning to take delivery of laser guided rockets. India has huge stocks of dumb rockets and a pod of 18 rockets is likely cheaper (for us) than a single guidance kit. We will be using dumb rockets for decades. I promise to remain alive till 2022 for people to thumb their noses at me and say I was wrong. No long term prediction that can only be verified only after I (and probably most others) am/are dead.

+1 Hakeem.

srai · Post by **srai** » 09 Dec 2017 04:23

^^^
Rafale hasn't been integrated with rocket pods AFAIK. Does anyone know of the IAF Mirage-2000 can be armed with rocket pods? I don't recall them carrying rocket pods. Even the IAF Jaguars, I can't recall them firing rockets? How about IAF Su-30MKI or MiG-29? No plans on integration on the LCA AFAIK.

That leaves us MiG-21/27 and Hawk AJT with rocket pods.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Dec 2017 04:34

IAF Su-30 no mention of raakits
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Galle ... 5.jpg.html

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Dec 2017 06:36

ramana wrote:shiv, Dont say that. We want you to live long and be the eminence grise!!!

LOL Thanks for the wishes ramana - but it was a rhetorical point because when we predict something we must remain accountable for our predictions and not make sweeping statements of something that is so far out that verification is not possible. I just bought a watch with a 150 year calendar until the year 2150 as an indicator of how long I will be needing it.

atma · Post by **atma** » 09 Dec 2017 07:15

Eminence grise... agree. Just posted your video on the battle of Longewala on my humble whatsapp group of young Jingos of Indian origin, in the US, very well recieved. Jai ho, Cybersurg! Your contributions to Indian war history, and patriotism are legend!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 12 Dec 2017 01:45

shiv wrote:"Rockets on the way out" is simply Amreeki hawa blowing over BRF on the lines of F-35 will be the last manned fighter. The US is beginning to take delivery of laser guided rockets. India has huge stocks of dumb rockets and a pod of 18 rockets is likely cheaper (for us) than a single guidance kit. We will be using dumb rockets for decades. I promise to remain alive till 2022 for people to thumb their noses at me and say I was wrong. No long term prediction that can only be verified only after I (and probably most others) am/are dead.

After the Mi-17 shoot down in Kargil, can you give a single instance of air to ground rocket strafing during that operation?

The MiG-21 & 23 switched to GPS assisted bombing while the Mirage used Litening Range Finder to drop unguided bombs as well as Litening Laser Designator for the few LGBs dropped.

The Indian Army's stock of bayonets is more than the IAF's stock of rockets. Also, bayonets are much cheaper than a rifle aiming sight. Yet how many Jehadis killed in J&K and elsewhere were killed with bayonets?

Laser guidance to rockets is indeed a game changer but only US rockets. Not the French or Soviet ones used by us. The French and Soviet rockets will go obsolete well within your and my lifetime - unless they evolve to guided modes like US rockets.

The US is using APKWS in Afghanistan and Iraq where there is no GBAD. But as I described in detail earlier and as experienced in Kargil, even with basic MANPADS and SHORAD, the predictable rocket strafing run makes aircraft highly vulnerable and standoff weapons like SAAW and even HSLD with glide kits becoming a better option.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Dec 2017 01:59

Airpower at 18K feet by Benjamin Lambeth says same.

No armed helicopters after the Mi-17 shoot down.

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 12 Dec 2017 15:56

tsarkar wrote:...

After the Mi-17 shoot down in Kargil, can you give a single instance of air to ground rocket strafing during that operation?

The MiG-21 & 23 switched to GPS assisted bombing while the Mirage used Litening Range Finder to drop unguided bombs as well as Litening Laser Designator for the few LGBs dropped.

The Indian Army's stock of bayonets is more than the IAF's stock of rockets. Also, bayonets are much cheaper than a rifle aiming sight. Yet how many Jehadis killed in J&K and elsewhere were killed with bayonets?

Laser guidance to rockets is indeed a game changer but only US rockets. Not the French or Soviet ones used by us. The French and Soviet rockets will go obsolete well within your and my lifetime - unless they evolve to guided modes like US rockets.

The US is using APKWS in Afghanistan and Iraq where there is no GBAD. But as I described in detail earlier and as experienced in Kargil, even with basic MANPADS and SHORAD, the predictable rocket strafing run makes aircraft highly vulnerable and standoff weapons like SAAW and even HSLD with glide kits becoming a better option.

The Mi 17 that got shot down did not have CMDS. The ones that did not get shot down had CMDS.

Rocketry is still practiced from all variants of Mi 17. Even I have practiced much after Kargil. The use of Mi 17 or helicopter with or without rockets will always remain under threat of manpads. We will not shut down Mi 17 operations because one of them was shot down.

BTW, fighters also practice rocketry. Allocation of rockets are lesser because ranges are lesser and pilots plus planes are far lessor than IA rifle bearers. The bayonet is still issued and bayonet charge is still practiced. More than its use, the sheer value of the bayonet charge in training a someone for possible conflict is immense. Similarly, rocketry is helpful in rangework and other aspects of preparing a pilot.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 12 Dec 2017 16:47

@tsarkar, if one conflict we didn't use one tactic, we should discard training for that afterwards!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2017 16:58

tsarkar wrote: The Indian Army's stock of bayonets is more than the IAF's stock of rockets. Also, bayonets are much cheaper than a rifle aiming sight. Yet how many Jehadis killed in J&K and elsewhere were killed with bayonets?

Sir Indian army's stock of artillery is much less than rifles. But artillery is used because they will be effective in certain conditions. I believe you are assuming that
1. Heavy anti-aircraft defences will be present in every situation in all wars
2. That IAF like USAF will have 2000 planes sitting idle in USA while 1/3rd of the Air Force goes to war. This can happen in a limited war like Kargil or war against Maldives. Not against our usual friends. Every asset and every weapon will be used without looking at whether it is latest fashion or not

tsarkar wrote: Laser guidance to rockets is indeed a game changer but only US rockets. Not the French or Soviet ones used by us. The French and Soviet rockets will go obsolete well within your and my lifetime - unless they evolve to guided modes like US rockets.

Please inform IAF also sir
https://youtu.be/IRvnQvw_vnY?t=131

Can I ask you a counter question sir. Why do bayonets still exist?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Dec 2017 19:20

shiv wrote: https://youtu.be/IRvnQvw_vnY?t=131

Wow!
The cameraman caught the rocket from its exit from the pod, all the way to the target!
Great camerawork

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2017 19:33

shiv wrote:...
Please inform IAF also sir
https://youtu.be/IRvnQvw_vnY?t=131

...

That's a MiG-21 with rockets still in use. The other is MiG-27. Both are on their way out.

Only fixed-wing remaining integrated with rockets would be Hawk AJT post 2022.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2017 19:39

srai wrote:
shiv wrote:...
Please inform IAF also sir
https://youtu.be/IRvnQvw_vnY?t=131

...
That's a MiG-21 with rockets still in use. The other is MiG-27. Both are on their way out.

Only fixed-wing remaining integrated with rockets would be Hawk AJT post 2022.

raakits

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2017 19:42

^^^
That's not a fixed wing is it Doc saab

The whole discussion with tsarkar started on fixed-wing not helos.

Akshay Kapoor · Post by **Akshay Kapoor** » 12 Dec 2017 19:43

deejay wrote:
tsarkar wrote:...

After the Mi-17 shoot down in Kargil, can you give a single instance of air to ground rocket strafing during that operation?

The MiG-21 & 23 switched to GPS assisted bombing while the Mirage used Litening Range Finder to drop unguided bombs as well as Litening Laser Designator for the few LGBs dropped.

The Indian Army's stock of bayonets is more than the IAF's stock of rockets. Also, bayonets are much cheaper than a rifle aiming sight. Yet how many Jehadis killed in J&K and elsewhere were killed with bayonets?

Laser guidance to rockets is indeed a game changer but only US rockets. Not the French or Soviet ones used by us. The French and Soviet rockets will go obsolete well within your and my lifetime - unless they evolve to guided modes like US rockets.

The US is using APKWS in Afghanistan and Iraq where there is no GBAD. But as I described in detail earlier and as experienced in Kargil, even with basic MANPADS and SHORAD, the predictable rocket strafing run makes aircraft highly vulnerable and standoff weapons like SAAW and even HSLD with glide kits becoming a better option.
The Mi 17 that got shot down did not have CMDS. The ones that did not get shot down had CMDS.

Rocketry is still practiced from all variants of Mi 17. Even I have practiced much after Kargil. The use of Mi 17 or helicopter with or without rockets will always remain under threat of manpads. We will not shut down Mi 17 operations because one of them was shot down.

BTW, fighters also practice rocketry. Allocation of rockets are lesser because ranges are lesser and pilots plus planes are far lessor than IA rifle bearers. The bayonet is still issued and bayonet charge is still practiced. More than its use, the sheer value of the bayonet charge in training a someone for possible conflict is immense. Similarly, rocketry is helpful in rangework and other aspects of preparing a pilot.

Absolutely. Even if rockets are obsolete I sincerely hope our great tradition of excellent gunnery skills is not eroded. Train with unguided rockets first and then after achieving proficiency by all means practice the laser guidance or whatever.

I won’t live that long but I wager that bayonets will exist for hundreds of years more even when you have passers and light sabers. It will exist till you have a human being having some chance of contact with enemy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2017 19:45

srai wrote:^^^
That's not a fixed wing is it Doc saab The whole discussion with tsarkar started on fixed-wing not helos.

Saw that late and edited. But conversation started with Mi 8 getting downed

Rockets not going anywhere soon. No more than dumb bombs that require target overflying like Durandal/BAP runway busters or cluster bombs. We just bought cluster bombs from US remember?

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&sourc ... mkAN4PgFUa

srai · Post by **srai** » 12 Dec 2017 19:50

^^^
Let's see if more integration are on the cards for remaining/future fixed-wing platforms of the IAF.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Dec 2017 20:03

If they want guns on fixed wing planes, then rockets are slightly better. More range, biggish explosive

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 12 Dec 2017 20:10

Gagan wrote:If they want guns on fixed wing planes, then rockets are slightly better. More range, biggish explosive

And a great area weapon as good if not better than A 10 Gatling with none of the weight/vibration drawbacks

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 13 Dec 2017 19:26

New Test with a range close to 3000km scheduled.

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/940942644930162688

Which missile should be this ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Dec 2017 19:34

Says SLBM Test, so should be K-4, hopefully from INS Aridham or INS Arghat. Always thought K-15 and K-4 BGRV's