Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

[shiv]

That Su-30 dropping Brahmos video is spectacular for so many reasons.

First of all - the missile drops for about 12 seconds before the cap flies off. in these 12 seconds it barely falls behind the mother plane and it has been stated that it falls for 100-150 meters in reports. A free fall object should fall 500 meters in that time. That shows the sort of lift the body is generating as well as the inertia of 2500 kg that keeps it moving. I wonder if that is a slow motion video? I did not think so.

[Prasad]

Another aspect is that there are many accounts of pilots reporting that the aircraft lurches upward when a heavy bomb like a 2000lb bomb is released. That mki looked rock steady.

[JayS]

Here is a history of this great moment of BrahMos-A (culled from various sources):

The air-launched version (BrahMos-A) which was expected to be tested by end-2014, could be done only in c. 2017 (November, 22, 2017). Its launcher hads been ground tested but a wrangle with Russia on redesigning (strengthening the underbelly and some other design changes to the fuselage) had held up the test. In December, 2012, ahead of Russian President Putin’s visit, India and Russia inked a deal for the air-launched BrahMos with the expectation that the first such missile would be tested before June, 2013. Apart from one Su-30 MKI in Russia, two Su-30MKI of the IAF were to be modified by the HAL at its Nashik facility where they will also be integrated with the aerial launcher developed by BATL, Thiruvananthapuram. The Russians quoted USD 250 M which was not acceptable to India and so DRDO decided to do the project entirely on its own (BrahMos Chief in AeroIndia 2017 lecture) to strengthen the Su-30 MKI's fuselage to take on the launcher from which the missile, with a take-off mass of 2,500 kg, would be gravity-dropped. On October 18, 2012, the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) cleared the Rs. 6000 Crore proposal by the IAF to acquire 200 air-launched BrahMos missiles. Fabricated using high strength aluminium, the 6-metre-long airborne launcher — the largest in the world — weighs 350 kg. This was the first time that India built any launcher at all, leave alone building the world’s heaviest launcher. The undercarriage of the Su-30MKI was strengthened to take the extra weight. The missile weight was brought down from 2.9 tonnes to 2.4 tonnes. In November 2012, Defence sources said that the missile would be qualified against targets at sea and on land in a staggered fashion before the end of 2013. After successful integration of the launcher with the aircraft, a dummy missile would be flown, to test the release mechanism of the launcher. This will be followed by a few test-flights of the ‘electronic missile,’ meant to check the electronic circuits and the cockpit-controlled release mechanism. Firing of live missile against designated targets will take place towards the end of 2014.

In February 2014, the BrahMos Chief, Dr. Sivathanu Pillai said that the missile itself and the launchers were ready for the Su-30 MKI. He said, “"The missile has been cleared for flight after simulation tests. Work is now underway in the Hindustan Aeronautics facility at Nasik to strengthen the Sukhoi fuselage to ensure the fighter can carry the heavy missile. After integration, we plan to test the missile from the fighter in December," An official said, “It will take another three months to perfect the Sukhoi's software and mission computer for the BrahMos missiles”. In October 2014, BrahMos Chief Dr. Sudhir Mishra said that a dummy missile would be air-dropped from a Su-30 MKI early 2015 and the actual missile would be fired in March, 2015. The BrahMos Aerospace CEO Sudhir Mishra said in mid-September, 2015 that the air-launch tests will commence from November, 2015. In November 2015, the HAL Chairman Suvarna Raju sounded very positive of imminent tests. According to an October 2015 report, the first test, a dead weight one, of the BrahMos integrated Sukhoi was likely to take place soon. The second test would be by firing a dummy missile while the third and fourth stages of testing would be with actual missile, but without the 200 kg warhead to validate the guidance system and accuracy. Two Sukhois would be used for the tests which would be completed in 2016. In end May 2016, The Hindu, quoting BrahMos sources said that the missile would be fired from a Su-30 MkI in the coming weeks.

Finally, it was on June 25, 2016 that the first Su-30 MKI flew with the 2.5 Tonne BrahMos strapped to its centerline, for 45 minutes at HAL, Nashik. The first separation test was successfully achieved on August 31, 2016. T. Suvarna Raju, CMD of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd, said that they plan to fly and drop a real missile against a target around October or November, 2016 after another 15-20 flights to evaluate the performance of the missile-ready fighter. During Aero-India 2017, Dr. Sudhir Mishra, BrahMos Chief, said that the test would be carried out in the ‘next few months’. HAL has modified two Sukhois for test purposes without any help at all from the Sukhoi manufacturers. In October 2016, news emerged that BrahMos-A was being tweaked to give it an ability to hit aircraft carriers and a test against a derelict warship would be conducted in the Bay of Bengal sometime in December, 2016. This will be at an angle of 65 degrees while the Phase-2 tests in c. 2017 would aim to achieve 90 degree attack on an aircraft carrier with a new radar-seeker to help it acquire and lock-on to a moving target.

In June 2017, it was announced that after six sets of carriage separation trials, a live firing of BrahMos-A from a Su-30 MKI would be carried out in July, 2017. Finally, BrahMos-A was tested successfully on Nov, 22, 2017 when Ministry of Defence (MoD) made the following announcement: “BrahMos, the world’s fastest supersonic cruise missile, created history on 22nd November, 2017 after it was successfully flight tested first time from the Indian Air Foce’s front line fighter aircraft Sukhoi-30 MKI against a sea-based target in the Bay of Bengal. The missile was gravity dropped from the Su-30 from fuselage, and the two-stage missile’s engine fired up and straightaway propelled towards the intended target at sea in the Bay of Bengal.” Other sources indicated that the target, a ship, was at a range of 280 Kms. and it was a direct hit. During AeroIndia 2017 (February 2017), The BrahMos Chief said that BrahMos weapon system has been tested so far 55 times with a success rate of above 99%.

BrahMos-A has a length of 8550 mm and can be launched at any height between 500m and 9000m. It falls freely for 100-150m before firing. It has a cruise phase altitude of up to 14000m and a terminal phase altitude of 5-15 m. A Brahmos air launch is a relatively straightforward affair. Before take-off, the target coordinates are fed into the missile. When the Su-30MKI reaches the designated launch point, probably just short of the border to maximise range, the pilot releases the Brahmos. The missile drops clear of the aircraft before its booster ignites; then, powered by a ramjet, it quickly accelerates to more than twice the speed of sound providing little reaction time to enemy air defence fighters and missiles. Guided by navigation satellites, its inertial navigation system takes it precisely to its target. Integrating the Brahmos with the Su-30MKI encountered several technical challenges. IIT Mumbai assisted with studies in "computational fluid dynamics" to ascertain that the giant missile did not create disruptive airflow that would destabilise the fighter or starve its two engines of air. The IAF has placed an order for more than 40 missiles to equip the two squadrons. For the IAF, the suitable platforms for Brahmos are the Su-30MKI and for the navy Russian Il-38SD ASW aircraft and, in a few years' time, the Boeing P-8I Poseidon ASW aircraft. The IAF is planning to deploy it on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being developed with Russia, after reducing the weight of the missile to below 2 tonnes. Eventually, only 42 Su-30 MkI fighters would be fitted with BrahMos-A missiles. Besides BrahMos-A, the IAF also has two squadrons (80 missiles per squadron) of surface-launched BrahMos Block-II Land Attack missiles in order to take out enemy communication towers, radars, runways etc. BrahMos release on May 27, 2016 said that recently IAF had tested these missiles successfully.

On Air Force Day, October 5, 2017, the IAF Chief B.S.Dhanoa said that BrahMos-A would be test-fired before December, 2017. The successful conclusion of zero-CEP Brahmos-A would be a lethal anti-maritime weapon around the A&N island chain.The Radar, Seeker & Propulsion technologies of BrahMos-A come from Russia. The radar is a mono-pulse X-band Imaging Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) unlike TERCOM (Terrain Contour Matching) radars used in slow-flying (sub-sonic) cruise missiles. It uses this special radar which gets its updates from the GPS/Russian GLONASS and flies across many way-points (where the flight changes its path instead of the traditional trajectory which can be monitored) to evade enemy radars. Because of this peculiarity, and the super-sonic speed, BrahMos is impossible to be intercepted. The BrahMos seeker – seeker SGH – is made by the Russian company, Granit Joint Stock Company. It has the capability for accurate terminal guidance, where the seeker takes over from the GPS supported radar to hit the target. DRDO has recently developed an indigenous seeker which involves numerous domestic companies especially Data Pattern and ECIL. The BrahMos propulsion involves two-stage motor, of which the booster is the first stage and the ramjet engine being the other one. In order to reduce the weight of the BrahMos-A by 500kg as compared with the navy and army version of BrahMos, the booster size has been reduced with the ramjet engine remaining the same weight. This has been done since BrahMos-A fired from the Su-30MKI will already be at an altitude and will have an initial velocity that do not require much boost to enter the cruise phase powered by the ramjet engine. The challenge, however, will be in the miniaturisation of BrahMos-A so that three missiles – BrahMos NG – instead of the present single missile on the Su-30MKI can be loaded. This will require a new ramjet engine, work on which is underway with Russia.

Great post. Many data points. 200 Brahmos-A cleared for IAF by CCS. IAF has 160 GL Brahmos.

As I expected and explained, only reduction in weight is in the Booster, but booster still there in smaller size. 500kg reduction in booster.

Carrier killer version with 90deg dive will be there. Great news. With extended range Brahmos post MTCR, this is going to be one heck of a silver bullet. It gives us about a decade worth of lead. We should use that time well to graduate to hypersonic capability. We will be right at the forefront. This is a great force multiplier. Brahmos-NG will be ever more potent with its ability to go on multiple IAF fighters and 3 per Su30, it will be a huge boost to our air strike capability.

[Philip]

First,reg. the cancellation of Spike in favour of a desi made in India needle. I feel that with the arrival of so many pvt. players in the def. scenario,we should have a new td. for PDSUs.(Pvt. Def. Sector Undertakings) ,just as we have DPSUs for the "public sector". Looking at a recent article on the same issue,the number of proposed JVs by various desi entities is an eye-opener.Apart from the R co.,who have trawled the globe for tie-ups,we have Adani,Mahindras,Tatas,Kalyani,Ashok Leyland,etc.,all wanting to make everything from ships,subs,aircraft,missiles-of every kind,tanks,arty,radars,ICVs,-you name it they want to make it! Therefore,the cancellation of Spike should not come as a great surprise,esp. as NAG is somewhere on the horizon and the success of that ATGM should spur the success of a desi man-portable ATGM.Let's wait and watch and see who develops it first.

40+ MKIs are supposed to be in the running for modernisation to carry BMos-A.This low fig. of the number in the inventory may becos BMos-NG/L is expected to arrive within a few years so that there would be no necessity of the "heavy" modernisation of the exg. MKI for launching BMos-L. The rest would probably all be upgraded to SS std.,now that with this test success,paperwork on sealing that deal is concluded asap.Credit must be given to everyone associated with the project,esp. the founder CM of the BMos Corp,Dr.Pillai.Almost all accomplished so far was under his stewardship of the JV and his book on the "BMos mantra",how to achieve success in the Indian context,is essential reading.

However,we must remember that BMos is a hugely expensive missile and must be used where it matters most. There are other cheaper LR missiles in the offing like the LRCM Nirbhay-again tested favourably recently and the glide bomb.Making legacy "dumb" bombs "smart" is a very cost-effective
solution to possessing a large inventory of smart munitions.Now for recovering some of our expenditure,let's attend to the long Q outside BMos Corp's HQ who've been waiting patiently and seal some deals asap.

[manjgu]

i was kind of surprised to see CNBC yesterday... there was a review of sectors for stock pickings...at the fag end..there was a question on Defence stocks, which was a surprise as we are used to hearing FMCG, IT, Consumers, Banking etc. The expert said while Defence is coming up but the order pipeline is very small. He mentioned Cochin Shipyard as a good potential stock with substantial order pipeline but generally order pipeline is very meagre.

[manjgu]

Shiv...i am not sure if the missile keeps pace with a/c all the way till firing its motors..the angle from where camera is taking the vid can give a false impression ..though inertia should carry it at almost same velocity . What impressed me was the a/c didnt jerk or make a upward movement on release of the missile. very impressive...

[nvishal]

First of all - the missile drops for about 12 seconds before the cap flies off. in these 12 seconds it barely falls behind the mother plane and it has been stated that it falls for 100-150 meters in reports. A free fall object should fall 500 meters in that time. That shows the sort of lift the body is generating as well as the inertia of 2500 kg that keeps it moving. I wonder if that is a slow motion video? I did not think so.

The drop time, between 1) lead existing rifle nozzle vs 2) me releasing lead from same height is the same. Both will take the same duration to hit the ground. The factor here is gravity.

At sukhoi height, where gravity is thin, the drop rate will not be the same.

[JayS]

First of all - the missile drops for about 12 seconds before the cap flies off. in these 12 seconds it barely falls behind the mother plane and it has been stated that it falls for 100-150 meters in reports. A free fall object should fall 500 meters in that time. That shows the sort of lift the body is generating as well as the inertia of 2500 kg that keeps it moving. I wonder if that is a slow motion video? I did not think so.

The drop time, between 1) lead existing rifle nozzle vs 2) me releasing lead from same height is the same. Both will take the same duration to hit the ground. The factor here is gravity.

At sukhoi height, where gravity is thin, the drop rate will not be the same.

[Karthik S]

Shiv...i am not sure if the missile keeps pace with a/c all the way till firing its motors..the angle from where camera is taking the vid can give a false impression ..though inertia should carry it at almost same velocity . What impressed me was the a/c didnt jerk or make a upward movement on release of the missile. very impressive...

Doesn't matter if plane got ahead of the missile really but, the only thing that affects the velocity of the plane and BrahMos is air resistance. At that altitude, time from the drop and motor firing and aerodynamics of the missile, the effect of air resistence will be minimal if not nil, therefore when BrahMos's motor starts, it should be right below the MKI.

[manjgu]

does not matter... i was only saying that the SU goes out of the frame v early and the camera angle cant conclusively establish..but if any test report says so then i concur. Will the next tests include Brahmos and other ordanance/missiles flown together?

[Amber G.]

That Su-30 dropping Brahmos video is spectacular for so many reasons.

First of all - the missile drops for about 12 seconds before the cap flies off. in these 12 seconds it barely falls behind the mother plane and it has been stated that it falls for 100-150 meters in reports. A free fall object should fall 500 meters in that time. That shows the sort of lift the body is generating as well as the inertia of 2500 kg that keeps it moving. I wonder if that is a slow motion video? I did not think so.

I have not watched the video, can you post the link to your video so that I can watch the same video.
Just watched the video..
some comments ..in 10-12 seconds free fall (in vacuum) will be around 500-700 meters. The drag coefficient is quite hard to estimate (need wind tunnel data) but if it was just a cylindrical object knowing the mass and shape can help...Anyway it will be an interesting physics problem to watch the video more carefully.
IMO it is not slow motion video, the distance 100-150 m looks right considering the length of missile given in wiki.. and seeing the initial drop (first few seconds) shows it is not a slow motion.

[deejay]

[ashish raval]

Question for experts. How accuracy of missile gets affected on a moving target. I mean Ships and Convoys are normally moving at certain speed and can take evasive action after detecting something hurtling towards it from 300 miles way.

On stationary target it looks to have pin point accuracy but it will be great to see it hit a moving ship too. It should be fairly easy to simulate this by towing the ship with a tug boat 100m away at certain speed to test this.

If this beast goes hypersonic the chini captain will not get a chance to wipe his backside off in the loo before they reach bottom of the sea. I don't think pukes need to be mentioned now. It is part of greater China now.

[shiv]

In the first 9 seconds even the tail end of the Brahmos has not passed behind the tail end of the su 30

[chetak]

Shiv...i am not sure if the missile keeps pace with a/c all the way till firing its motors..the angle from where camera is taking the vid can give a false impression ..though inertia should carry it at almost same velocity . What impressed me was the a/c didnt jerk or make a upward movement on release of the missile. very impressive...

It would be a poor flight computer that couldn't manage to keep the platform steady.

The missile drops by gravity and its unpowered until the missile propulsion kicks in. The drag will immediately start to slow it down, relative to the powered aircraft, as it falls away. Its the camera, probably using a wide angle lens (?), that gives the impression of the missile keeping up with the aircraft

[schinnas]

With extended range version and lighter weight Brahmos NG, fewer aircraft in A&N, west and east coast of India would be sufficient to deter any enemy surface warships that try for mischief in Bay of Bengal or IOR or Arabian Sea. We just need enough satellites and drones to keep an eye on their movements and activities 24x7.

The high success rate and superb accuracy of this middle and it's land based variants make it lot easier to take out enemy radar batteries, runways and AWACS within few hundred kms of our border.

Do we still need 42 squadrons with such a missile heavy strategy? Can we not ensure air dominance in a 2 front war with just 36 squadrons assuming we add another 40 SU30 MKI with 3 Brahmos NG each? Keep one addiyonal Su 30 Brahmos NG squadron in Western theatre and one for northern theatre.

[Aditya_V]

Question for experts. How accuracy of missile gets affected on a moving target. I mean Ships and Convoys are normally moving at certain speed and can take evasive action after detecting something hurtling towards it from 300 miles way.

On stationary target it looks to have pin point accuracy but it will be great to see it hit a moving ship too. It should be fairly easy to simulate this by towing the ship with a tug boat 100m away at certain speed to test this.

If this beast goes hypersonic the chini captain will not get a chance to wipe his backside off in the loo before they reach bottom of the sea. I don't think pukes need to be mentioned now. It is part of greater China now.

The Missile has a radar seeker in antiship version which locks onto the target to hit, I am sure some of the 55 prrevious tests haaving been against moving ships.

[chetak]

somehow the impression seems to have been created that all han systems are inferior and Indian ingenuity will overcome all obstacles and our guys will kill them all and come back alive.

please do take a look at han systems and form a realistic assessment and keep that in mind while discussing. The hans have plenty of money to burn and a well organised system of industrial and military espionage feeding directly into their MIC. They have advanced far, far beyond their Shenyang MiG copying days.

If we sold the brahmos to vietnam or whoever, the hans would have a complete brahmos missile in their hands in a matter of weeks, if not days. I have no doubt of this.

look at their ongoing naval and aircraft programs. It mirrors the US in sophistication and (stolen??) ingenuity.

[chetak]

Question for experts. How accuracy of missile gets affected on a moving target. I mean Ships and Convoys are normally moving at certain speed and can take evasive action after detecting something hurtling towards it from 300 miles way.

On stationary target it looks to have pin point accuracy but it will be great to see it hit a moving ship too. It should be fairly easy to simulate this by towing the ship with a tug boat 100m away at certain speed to test this.

If this beast goes hypersonic the chini captain will not get a chance to wipe his backside off in the loo before they reach bottom of the sea. I don't think pukes need to be mentioned now. It is part of greater China now.

The Missile has a radar seeker in antiship version which locks onto the target to hit, I am sure some of the 55 prrevious tests haaving been against moving ships.

most antiship misiles are sea skimmers that evade ship radar by flying really low. Some may start active transmission only when really close to the terminal phase of their attack. Some also rise late during the terminal phase to attack the ship from above to penetrate deeper before delivering the payload. Some home in on infrared.

There are a whole load of counter measures that a ship can use and an intelligent missile can usually see through most of them and not miss the target

[Singha]

they seem to have obtained some technology of yakhont and displayed a missile that externally looks almost 100% similar.

[Yagnasri]

As far as my mango knowledge goes, there will be targetting updates and internal seeker normally activated at the last stage. There is not much last you can move at that point to escape. They will have jamming systems and anti-missile missiles and also closing anti AC/missile defences. Brahmos due to its speed will make more difficult to stop.

[manjgu]

chetak..precisely the point I was making..IMHO the camera and camera angle cant discern the relative positions of SU30 and the missile against a featureless background...not that its very important but since the topic came up for discussion.

[AdityaM]

When the Brahmos missile was designed and allocated to army units, its was not a given that India would join MTCR in future which would enable greater range. Then why did the Brahmos already in service have extra length and fuel capability for the full range ?

When reducing the booster can save 500 kg, why wasnt extra missile length & weight reduced when it was only designed for small range? this would have reduced further weight allowing for even greater speeds.

we are lucky that a small software tweak allowed for greater missile range, but up till that tweak point, were they filling less fuel in the missile for the reduced MTCR controlled range ?
Or was the missile always expected to be 400km+ and MTCR constraints were really wink wink.

[shiv]

Shiv...i am not sure if the missile keeps pace with a/c all the way till firing its motors..the angle from where camera is taking the vid can give a false impression ..though inertia should carry it at almost same velocity . What impressed me was the a/c didnt jerk or make a upward movement on release of the missile. very impressive...

Of course it doesn't. But if you watch videos of bombs dropping or at least things dropping the rates at which they fall behind the aircraft depend on the resistance they offer to air. All I am saying the Brahmos' sleek aerodynamic design does not make it decelerate in a hurry. That is all. Of course it's intertia also matters - and there is a lot of that at 2500 kg. Still that missile is notable in how long it simply keeps falling down without falling behind.

Here, watch how these drop tanks go..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nF92HgCyRc

[chetak]

When the Brahmos missile was designed and allocated to army units, its was not a given that India would join MTCR in future which would enable greater range. Then why did the Brahmos already in service have extra length and fuel capability for the full range ?

When reducing the booster can save 500 kg, why wasnt extra missile length & weight reduced when it was only designed for small range? this would have reduced further weight allowing for even greater speeds.

we are lucky that a small software tweak allowed for greater missile range, but up till that tweak point, were they filling less fuel in the missile for the reduced MTCR controlled range ?
Or was the missile always expected to be 400km+ and MTCR constraints were really wink wink.

do you or anyone else in the country/world expect India to be constrained by something piddly like MTCR when dealing with openly inimical countries like china??

All our weapons are specifically designed and the range is a vital part of that threat perception that goes in as a prime and mission critical part of the design process.

The hans know it well and they were rightly very upset when the tests took place. Apparently, sauce for the goose and the gander should be different per their view.

Except for the paranoid hans and the pakis, no one else in the whole wide world cares two hoots about what range the Indian ballistic or cruise missiles have. They all know one thing for sure and that is the fact that, in India, there are no bearded mullah type mad men with their itchy finger on the nuclear button and also dreaming of world domination.

missile manchurian, anyone??

[disha]

Question for experts. How accuracy of missile gets affected on a moving target. I mean Ships and Convoys are normally moving at certain speed and can take evasive action after detecting something hurtling towards it from 300 miles ...

Check out how Exocet brought down HMS Sheffield.

Lets assume that Brahmos is detected 300 Kms out., at 3 Kms/sec., in <1.5 mins the target will be hit. Assuming the target is travelling at 30 nautical mph., it will have displaced @1 km.

So what evasive action they can take? They cannot shoot it down. All they can do is create a wall of lead & between themslves & the missile & pray!

[brar_w]

Supersonic cruise missile target intercepts usually take place at much shorter ranges which means much less than the detect-to-intercept time than the one in the scenario you mention.

[Vips]

After supersonic success of BrahMos, DRDO to make its booster motor in Indi.

After successfully launching the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile from Sukhoi-30MKI fighter jet, the Indian scientists are now working on making the missile more indigenous.

The scientists from High Energy Materials Research Laboratory (HEMRL) who have worked on high energy materials in BrahMos stated that they will be developing the booster motor of BrahMos ingenuously at HEMRL.

PK Mehta, director general (Armament and Combat Engineering) DRDO said, "All the missile program of the country has some connection with Pune's HEMRL as in every missile, the high energy material is used."

"In case of BrahMos missile, HEMRL has played key role when it comes to use of high energy material. So far, the booster motor used in BrahMos is being supplied by our joint venture partner Russia. However, now the booster motor is going to be developed in the country. The development of the booster motor is being worked out at HEMRL. Once it is done, BrahMos will have the large indigenous component," Mehta added.

Brahmos, the supersonic cruise missile was tested for the first time from a Sukhoi-30MKI jet on Wednesday.

"The BrahMos missile so far was being fire tested from land and naval platform. Now it has been fired successfully from SU-30 platform also. After the successful test from air platform, the effective range of the missile has increased. Now the missile can be fire with pinpoint accuracy from nearly 250 to 300 kilometers away from the target," Mehta said.

When asked about the policy on high energy materials being worked by the government, Mehta said, "It is a white paper primary to do with strategic material which country needs. The government wants to ensure that it wants to keep the resources intact and if the need arises they can be imported and made available."

[nam]

Question: Is the ramjet engine used on Akash and Brahmos the same? I understand the weight differences. So is it a more powerful version of Akash ramjet?

I am trying to understanding if Brahmos can be made cheap as chips by re-using some of it's systems across other missiles.

[sahay]

They have no connection with each other. Akash has a solid fuel ramjet developed by DRDO, while Brahmos has a liquid fuel ramjet from Russia.

[chetak]

Shiv...i am not sure if the missile keeps pace with a/c all the way till firing its motors..the angle from where camera is taking the vid can give a false impression ..though inertia should carry it at almost same velocity . What impressed me was the a/c didnt jerk or make a upward movement on release of the missile. very impressive...

Doesn't matter if plane got ahead of the missile really but, the only thing that affects the velocity of the plane and BrahMos is air resistance. At that altitude, time from the drop and motor firing and aerodynamics of the missile, the effect of air resistence will be minimal if not nil, therefore when BrahMos's motor starts, it should be right below the MKI.

these drop heights and speeds are predetermined during the testing stage in the separation trials.

The missile needs to drop a certain distance below and also away from the aircraft before the missile propulsion kicks in and the jet blast of the missile motor is safely clear of the aircraft.

The fuzes of bombs loaded in an aircraft are not armed unless the bomb falls well clear of the aircraft. The mechanism of arming the fuzes varies but it is all based on the bomb being well clear of the aircraft that carried it.

I think that the missile motor may also use a similar method of safe distance before it is allowed to ignite.

however good the aerodynamic design, the drag can never be nil. During the drop, the missile is un propelled and the aircraft is still under active propulsion. The aircraft will pull away from the missile because the missile is actually slowing (relative to the aircraft) due to the drag and the aircraft is still being propelled forward.

[chetak]

Question: Is the ramjet engine used on Akash and Brahmos the same? I understand the weight differences. So is it a more powerful version of Akash ramjet?

I am trying to understanding if Brahmos can be made cheap as chips by re-using some of it's systems across other missiles.

However which way you slice it, the cost of the brahmos is in high multiple crores.

also, ramjets need a certain initial forward velocity before it ignites and sustains the combustion.

It cannot be used to launch a stationary missile because it will just not ignite and needs a certain forward velocity sustain the combustion to produce thrust. Once that sustaining velocity is reached it works well. It may do OK in the second or third stage of the ground launched missile but never in the first stage.

[John]

However which way you slice it, the cost of the brahmos is in high multiple crores.

Mainly because of the seeker. Brahmos is still far cheaper than Exocet and Harpoon; we paid 200 million for 22 Harpoon missile incl spares.

they seem to have obtained some technology of yakhont and displayed a missile that externally looks almost 100% similar.

Highly speculated china is the country that funded Yakhont/Oniks development and NPO was right that the funding from Brahmos was not used for the former. In late 90s there was news report that Russia found a country to fund Yakhont at that time everyone assume it was India but it turned out to be joint venture for Brahmos, i strongly suspect that was China. In return for funding the development they likely got their hands on it.

[chetak]

Question for experts. How accuracy of missile gets affected on a moving target. I mean Ships and Convoys are normally moving at certain speed and can take evasive action after detecting something hurtling towards it from 300 miles ...

Check out how Exocet brought down HMS Sheffield.

Lets assume that Brahmos is detected 300 Kms out., at 3 Kms/sec., in <1.5 mins the target will be hit. Assuming the target is travelling at 30 nautical mph., it will have displaced @1 km.

So what evasive action they can take? They cannot shoot it down. All they can do is create a wall of lead & between themslves & the missile & pray!

Both radar technology as well as CIWS systems have improved tremendously since the days of the unfortunate HMS sheffield.

Rapid Blooming Offboard Chaff, is the generally first line of defence followed immediately by the ciws.

[chetak]

However which way you slice it, the cost of the brahmos is in high multiple crores.

Mainly because of the seeker. Brahmos is still far cheaper than Exocet and Harpoon; we paid 200 million for 22 Harpoon missile incl spares.

they seem to have obtained some technology of yakhont and displayed a missile that externally looks almost 100% similar.

Highly speculated china is the country that funded Yakhont/Oniks development and NPO was right that the funding from Brahmos was not used for the former. In late 90s there was news report that Russia found a country to fund Yakhont at that time everyone assume it was India but it turned out to be joint venture for Brahmos, i strongly suspect that was China. In return for funding the development they likely got their hands on it.

The missile is expensive, it does not matter which component is responsible, if indeed it actually is.

Just because something is made in India, do not assume it comes cheap.

In many cases, made in India is actually more expensive than the original.

[Austin]

Highly speculated china is the country that funded Yakhont/Oniks development and NPO was right that the funding from Brahmos was not used for the former. In late 90s there was news report that Russia found a country to fund Yakhont at that time everyone assume it was India but it turned out to be joint venture for Brahmos, i strongly suspect that was China. In return for funding the development they likely got their hands on it.

I think we have discussed this more than once the control surface for Chinese version vastly varies compared to brahmos as in they are larger and differently place the missile also looks slightly larger dia wise , I also shared a link on Brahmos Engine which is TVC driven reason why it is so highly accurate at very high speed and need smaller control surface something Ramana mentioned it too.

The engine for Brahmos is one generation ahead compared to ramjet engine of Sunburn missile and likely more fuel effecient reason why it gets ~ 500 km range for that missile with small diameter

If you compare Exocet with Chinese C-802 they look similar too does not mean French gave them Exocet technology

[Suresh S]

Shiv, I did a rough calculation. Missile falls for 14 seconds before the cap comes off and another 4.8 seconds before ramjet kicks in. In the picture we know missile length is about 28 feet and it is falling 1 cm distance in the picture per second( 28 feet). Per my very rough calculation missile fell about 400 feet before cap came off and another about 130 feet before ramjet kicks in.If it is slow motion than my calculation is wrong. This a very rough calculation, ofcourse angles, will change distances but it gives some rough idea about the distance.

[chetak]

Highly speculated china is the country that funded Yakhont/Oniks development and NPO was right that the funding from Brahmos was not used for the former. In late 90s there was news report that Russia found a country to fund Yakhont at that time everyone assume it was India but it turned out to be joint venture for Brahmos, i strongly suspect that was China. In return for funding the development they likely got their hands on it.

I think we have discussed this more than once the control surface for Chinese version vastly varies compared to brahmos as in they are larger and differently place the missile also looks slightly larger dia wise , I also shared a link on Brahmos Engine which is TVC driven reason why it is so highly accurate at very high speed and need smaller control surface something Ramana mentioned it too.

The engine for Brahmos is one generation ahead compared to ramjet engine of Sunburn missile and likely more fuel effecient reason why it gets ~ 500 km range for that missile with small diameter

If you compare Exocet with Chinese C-802 they look similar too does not mean French gave them Exocet technology

If the french didn't then the pakis did, no??

[Austin]

I think we have discussed this more than once the control surface for Chinese version vastly varies compared to brahmos as in they are larger and differently place the missile also looks slightly larger dia wise , I also shared a link on Brahmos Engine which is TVC driven reason why it is so highly accurate at very high speed and need smaller control surface something Ramana mentioned it too.

The engine for Brahmos is one generation ahead compared to ramjet engine of Sunburn missile and likely more fuel effecient reason why it gets ~ 500 km range for that missile with small diameter

If you compare Exocet with Chinese C-802 they look similar too does not mean French gave them Exocet technology

If the french didn't then the pakis did, no??

Any one can speculate but donating a missile wont make some one build it unless some one has real MIC capability to do it and Chinese has long passed that stage , they were making C-802 like stuff in early 80's

[John]

Highly speculated china is the country that funded Yakhont/Oniks development and NPO was right that the funding from Brahmos was not used for the former. In late 90s there was news report that Russia found a country to fund Yakhont at that time everyone assume it was India but it turned out to be joint venture for Brahmos, i strongly suspect that was China. In return for funding the development they likely got their hands on it.

I think we have discussed this more than once the control surface for Chinese version vastly varies compared to brahmos as in they are larger and differently place the missile also looks slightly larger dia wise , I also shared a link on Brahmos Engine which is TVC driven reason why it is so highly accurate at very high speed and need smaller control surface something Ramana mentioned it too.

The engine for Brahmos is one generation ahead compared to ramjet engine of Sunburn missile and likely more fuel effecient reason why it gets ~ 500 km range for that missile with small diameter

If you compare Exocet with Chinese C-802 they look similar too does not mean French gave them Exocet technology

I believe they used the Yakhont technology to work on their own variant we already seen similar trend with other tech the Russians passed on (S-300, Shtil etc).

Don’t want to get side tracked but C-802 used French micro turbo engine so not sure I follow your comment. They later reverse engineered it.