Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

John · Post by **John** » 06 Aug 2018 16:48

Trikaal wrote:
John wrote: SAM have much higher terminal speed than Brahmos is Mach2-2.5 where Barak-8 was close to Mach4-5 during tests. Brahmos can’t pull high Gs but it’s more than maneuverable to take out Tankers and larger ACs.

However I am afraid it’s not designed for that purpose because it would need datalink and mid course guidance to successfully intercept fast moving targets; long range SAM utilize this FYI.
Google says Barak 8 speed is Mach 2. The tests you mention could be for Barak 8-NG though.

That was reported during Navy’s test by a few sources and Israel is widely known to under report range and speed besides it could be average speed that’s advertised not the terminal speed.

question is how efficient is brahmos at high alt like 40,000ft that AWACS/EW/tankers fly at?

I believe Brahmos is most efficient at around 40,000 ft is advertised at cruising at 14,000 meters to maximize range.

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Aug 2018 17:11

A rocket power air launched LRSAM could work as well, if the AWACS does not detect it and take evasive action. A Barak-8 style dual pulse motor which kicks in say 20-30 KM before the target and gravity should give it the speed required to surprise the target.

Ramjet powered would be more ideal, however a air launched Scramjet(with Ramjet) would be perfect.Will have the range and speed. This will probably be ideal for boost phase BMD.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 06 Aug 2018 18:20

Instead of even thinking of Brahmos as a AAM how about Barak & Barak 8 as AAMs for HHV targets ?

nam · Post by **nam** » 06 Aug 2018 18:56

From the ground,a variation of Russian style high velocity BMD interceptor( which hit Mach 5 in 3-4 seconds), would probably be another option.

John · Post by **John** » 06 Aug 2018 20:15

Kersi wrote:Instead of even thinking of Brahmos as a AAM how about Barak & Barak 8 as AAMs for HHV targets ?

Barak won't have any better range than even Derby even Land based Derby have longer SAM range than Barak. IMO air launched Barak-8 will essentially be similar to Derby ER, which is essentially an enlargened Derby fitted with Dual pulse motor.

If you want 300 km range AAM you looking at something the size of KS-172.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 06 Aug 2018 21:40

Put 3 Astra on top of a single AAD motor

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 06 Aug 2018 23:04

darshhan wrote:
Indranil wrote:Brahmos is not the right tool for the job. Harris’s ji has captured is best in “jiska kaaj usi ko saadhe”.

But an air breathing LRSAM (enlarged SFDR) is an interesting proposition. Interesting pros and cons.
Can't really think of any con except when it comes to absolute kinetic performance (not sustained) and initial development costs maybe.

1. There is no may be about costs. Not just the RnD, the missiles themselves will be more costlier.
2. Air breathing missiles have more-restricted flight envelops than solid motored ones.

The advantage of a Ramjet A2A or S2A missile is range because it doesn't have to carry the oxidizer and slightly better throttle-ability . Another very slight advantage is that their plume is even smaller than "smokeless" rocket motors. Other than that, solid fueled missiles are better.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2018 00:17

Folks all these conceptual ideas what threat are they preventing?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2018 01:15

Any news on Nirbhay or its jet engine? Will make all of ous Manik depressed.

Snehashis · Post by **Snehashis** » 07 Aug 2018 02:31

ramana wrote:Any news on Nirbhay or its jet engine? Will make all of ous Manik depressed.

Manik Engine achieves 98% indigenization, fired up for 2 hours straight

According to information provided by DRDO in its Annual Report for 2017, Small Turbo Fan Engine (STFE) which is also known as Manik turbofan in 2017 has achieved 98% indigenization level and BrahMos Aerospace Thiruvananthapuram Limited (BATL) developed T1, T2, and T3 Prototype engines have demonstrated for its endurance of 2 hours continuous at 50,000 rpm under full load conditions .

Manik Engine earlier this year was also successfully tested in High Altitude Cold Climate Starting trials in Leh and has already undergone rigorous ground and high power tests for over two years now

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2018 05:42

Thanks. You made our day.
So Brahmos is the mfg for Manik.

Good.
Now when do they plan to test it in Nirbhay.

Karthik S · Post by **Karthik S** » 07 Aug 2018 07:57

2 hours endurance would translate to a range of 1500 km.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Aug 2018 09:03

ideally another model of 3000km range should be developed just to spread havoc further in the rear and permit firing from all parts of our vast realm.

the kh101 has that kind of range.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 07 Aug 2018 09:54

So what is the best option we have right now to take down an AWACS, other than brute forcing our way into enemy airspace, chasing it and then shooting it down up close?

Indranil wrote: 2. Air breathing missiles have more-restricted flight envelops than solid motored ones.

Why is that so? Is it because higher kinetic energy means more energy bleed in maneuvers? Can't that be solved by using dual pulse motors?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 07 Aug 2018 10:19

No. Flight envelope can only be restricted to where the ramjet engine and inlet can work. In case of chin mounted intakes, there are AoA ans side slip restrictions as well.

Mihir · Post by **Mihir** » 07 Aug 2018 21:37

Indranil wrote:Brahmos is not the right tool for the job. Harris’s ji has captured is best in “jiska kaaj usi ko saadhe”.

BrahMos is the new blockchain. It will solve everything.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Aug 2018 02:50

WOW! This is really cool!

https://twitter.com/BrahMosMissile/stat ... 8734825472 ---> Felt honoured and blessed to host Smt. Rasulan Bibi wife of Shahid Abdul Hamid, Param Vir Chakra awardee, whose grandson is serving the nation through BrahMos Aerospace.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 09 Aug 2018 12:10

Underwater test of SLBM likely
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 54796.html

BHUBANESWAR: India is preparing to conduct a crucial trial of its most ambitious submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) from an underwater platform. Defence sources said the nuke-capable missile is likely to be test-fired from a pontoon (replica of a submarine) nearly 20 metre under the sea off Vizag coast on Thursday. While notice to airmen (Notam) has been issued, defence scientists are leaving no stone unturned for a successful mission as two consecutive attempts to launch the missile recently had reportedly failed.

Though earlier it was planned to test-fire the SLBM from indigenously-built nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant, sources said the missile will now be fired from the pontoon as the submarine is not ready for live trials. “Elaborate preparations are on for the mission. The missile is ready while logistic arrangements are being put in place along with positioning of tracking systems. The test window has been kept for August 9, 10 and 11,” said a defence official.

Developed by Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the SLBM is world’s best weapon in its class. Flying at hypersonic speed, the missile can’t be spotted until it is virtually upon the target. Powered by solid propellant, it can carry payload up to one tonne and be fitted with tactical nuclear warhead. The SLBM is a part of India’s ‘nuclear triad’ (ground-based, air and submarine-launched weapons) and invulnerable second-strike weapon as projected in the nuclear doctrine.

The missile can be compared with Tomahawk missile of the US in terms of speed and lethality. So far, only a few countries have the missile technology that can deceive enemy attacks. “Since it is a user associate launch, DRDO scientists in presence of Navy officials will conduct the test from a submerged pontoon. Once inducted, it will add more teeth to India’s arsenal,” the official added.

sum · Post by **sum** » 09 Aug 2018 12:30

^^ Not sure if lots of disinfo floating around or actual info...

Says that Arihant isnt ready for a SLBM but earlier reports had mentioned it had test-fired it once atleast. Also, mentions two failures but there were no NOTAMs for those tests where these could have occured

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 09 Aug 2018 12:51

Rakesh wrote:WOW! This is really cool!

https://twitter.com/BrahMosMissile/stat ... 8734825472 ---> Felt honoured and blessed to host Smt. Rasulan Bibi wife of Shahid Abdul Hamid, Param Vir Chakra awardee, whose grandson is serving the nation through BrahMos Aerospace.

My feedback to the tweeter, for being disrespectful to the great mother.

Check out @HaridasKukkur’s Tweet: https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... 55233?s=09

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 09 Aug 2018 13:41

Don't effing make a issue where there isn't any.. Sigh... That's missing the spirit of the meeting and focusing on the procedure. WTF!

I would delete that tweet... She is in a comfortable sofa from what I can see.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 09 Aug 2018 14:06

Haridas ji, no offense meant. The geriatric lady is sitting on a comfortable sofa while BrahMos CEO is sitting in his office chair.

Even during gallantry awards investiture ceremony, the President's ceremonial chair at Ashoka Hall of Rashtrapati Bhavan is on the podium and higher than the recipient & audience seating.

Though earlier it was planned to test-fire the SLBM from indigenously-built nuclear-powered submarine INS Arihant, sources said the missile will now be fired from the pontoon as the submarine is not ready for live trials.

This is speculation on part of the reporter. Only once a missile is fully tested for reliability is it tested from its platform. Otherwise an untested weapon misfire may damage or even sink the expensive platform. Which is also why we have specialized testing platforms
http://www.shipspotting.com/gallery/pho ... id=2435630

Also, pontoon is NOT a submarine replica

The missile can be compared with Tomahawk missile of the US in terms of speed and lethality.

Dhimmi mentality in full display when a Jane's report shared by Austin highlighted the hypersonic cruise missile capabilities of Shourya.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Aug 2018 15:19

I know this news report is nearly 4 months old, but has this been covered here?

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/04 ... rvice.html

“In a boost to indigenisation and in realisation of India’s growing technological prowess, the DAC approved procurement of Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO’s) designed and developed NAG Missile System (NAMIS) at the cost of Rs 524 crore. The system includes a third generation Anti-Tank Guided Missile, the NAG, along with the Missile Carrier Vehicle (NAMICA). The NAG missile is a third generation anti-tank guided missile, which has top attack capabilities that can effectively engage and destroy all known enemy tanks during day and night. This will give a quantum boost to the Army’s capability against enemy armour.

The Indian Army will shortly begin inducting its first indigenously developmet anti-tank guided weaponry. The Ministry of Defence today cleared a $70 million for 300 Nag missiles and 25 modified BMP-2 ‘NAMICA’ carrier vehicles that will deploy the munition.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Aug 2018 19:08

That is very cost effective Nag missile. I wish this is an initial order and eventually goes up to ten times that.

Haridas · Post by **Haridas** » 11 Aug 2018 09:50

tsarkar wrote:Haridas ji, no offense meant. The geriatric lady is sitting on a comfortable sofa while BrahMos CEO is sitting in his office chair.

Even during gallantry awards investiture ceremony, the President's ceremonial chair at Ashoka Hall of Rashtrapati Bhavan is on the podium and higher than the recipient & audience seating.

1. I come from similar village, I am absolutely sure the geriatric lady will sit with equal or more comfortably on floor, does that qualify as giving tespect? No.
2. President is highest post in country, thus appropriate to be on higher podium when giving PVC. Brohmos chairman or any other civilian is not even comparable to the chappals worn by the great lady the wife of brave heart who earned PVChakra, thus my angst at it, but it is just my perspective.

I hope others have higher taste of giving proper respect where it is due. Just close to my heart strings.
I respectfully rest my case and not wish to belabour it.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Aug 2018 10:09

Agree with Haridas even meeting a normal elderly person in this case an elderly lady you wont sit on a higher sit out of sheer respect much less meeting a wife of a PVC awardee Smt. Rasulan Bibi . Its highly disrespectful of him to be sitting in the way he does and disrespectful to a soldier wife. He should rather be standing , I am sure if Kalam Sir would have been there he would have rebuked this guy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Aug 2018 10:47

No need to get hot over it
Its a informal meeting in his office not a durbar hall meeting
To get in the same pic he just rolled in the office chair

He is civilian and probably no idea of intricate services protocols

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Aug 2018 12:33

Nag/Namica a good start.The prod. rate should be doubled for faster induction.The IA/ DRDO should also improve the platform by adding a cannon to it for self-defence so that it can deal with RPG threats from enemy infantry.A Namica-2 could incorporate it.

Trikaal · Post by **Trikaal** » 11 Aug 2018 13:24

Guys, they are posing for a photo. He can't stand because then the photograph won't capture both of them properly. His options were - sit on the same sofa with the lady, sit on the floor or sit in his office chair. Obviously he chose the most logical option.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 11 Aug 2018 17:15

any info on the SLBM test?

prasannasimha · Post by **prasannasimha** » 11 Aug 2018 19:54

Trikaal wrote:Guys, they are posing for a photo. He can't stand because then the photograph won't capture both of them properly. His options were - sit on the same sofa with the lady, sit on the floor or sit in his office chair. Obviously he chose the most logical option.

I think we should let it to rest. All this nit picking. He has given her a comfortable sofa for an elderly lady and this is not a Mr 10 psyops picture . She has been given a proper Satkaar and the CEO is taking pride and posting her picture so why read more to it than what it is ? We Indians like to self flagellate and pull oursleves down don't we ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 11 Aug 2018 20:58

prasannasimha wrote:
Trikaal wrote:Guys, they are posing for a photo. He can't stand because then the photograph won't capture both of them properly. His options were - sit on the same sofa with the lady, sit on the floor or sit in his office chair. Obviously he chose the most logical option.
I think we should let it to rest. All this nit picking. He has given her a comfortable sofa for an elderly lady and this is not a Mr 10 psyops picture . She has been given a proper Satkaar and the CEO is taking pride and posting her picture so why read more to it than what it is ? We Indians like to self flagellate and pull oursleves down don't we ?

+100 needless nitpicking

kurup · Post by **kurup** » 12 Aug 2018 18:20

60 km range test on 16/17 Aug ... My guess is Pinaka ,

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1028621976837873664

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 13 Aug 2018 01:39

(that's for the OT garbage-peddling. Wonder what happens at the Yellow Sea when a Brigadier-Jarnail visits.

No saar, YOU please stand at the highest point, I am lowly sepoy will sit under the trenchline onlee, saar!

: )

Good to see that this SLxM is not ballistic but is a hypersonic cruise thingy ("almost as good as 1970s Mach 0.5 Tom-ul-Haq", wow!). But I have to wonder about cruise altitude. Do modern missiles try to cruise hypersonic at low altitude?

I am asking because of the "can't be detected until it is very close" which suggests a sea-skimmer. I know that some AAM/SAMs used in Syria claim Mach 6 or 8, but those are pretty high altitude.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Aug 2018 04:13

Only the next gen still in design stage. One big requirement is range safety at low altitude. How do you destruct when radar cant see the trajectory and tracking signals might induce delay?

Just on Fridin was ruminating like the ox I am.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 14 Aug 2018 01:09

Post on the above got eaten by system issues at my end.
It does look like a masterful stroke of disinformation/DDM.
1 ton payload AND "hypersonic" with solid propulsion means takeoff mass at least 2.5 tons (just to reach deltaV of Mach 5, which is not enough to reach any significant range), but probably a lot more. How many of those can fit in a sub I wonder.
Mention of Tom ul Haq (subsonic turbofan after solid-rocket tube launch) and "not detectable until almost on target" are almost certainly indicative of a cruise mijjile, IOW SLCM not SLBM.
So are they hinting at something that is launched by solid rocket, then transitions to ramjet cruise (Maybe Mach 2.5) with solid propellant (to increase range hugely) and then maybe hypersonic terminal stage with aerodynamics to maneuver cross-range, and duck close to the surface?

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 14 Aug 2018 03:06

Brahmos Look Alike - RIM 8J Talos Missile

https://twitter.com/RishiTri76/status/1 ... 3376826368

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 14 Aug 2018 03:07

Austin wrote:Agree with Haridas even meeting a normal elderly person in this case an elderly lady you wont sit on a higher sit out of sheer respect much less meeting a wife of a PVC awardee Smt. Rasulan Bibi . Its highly disrespectful of him to be sitting in the way he does and disrespectful to a soldier wife. He should rather be standing , I am sure if Kalam Sir would have been there he would have rebuked this guy.

Are you sarcastic or what? If Smt. Rasulan Bibi is sitting for a 2hr meeting then should sudhir misra be standing for 2 hrs? Or should he rather give her the uncomfortable rotating chair and he sit on the sofa? Such unnecessary nitpick. Absolutely unwarranted in this forum.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Aug 2018 03:10

UB, The India case for hypersonic weapons:
From USI Journal 12 page pdf.

Hypersonic Weapons and Impact on Military Operations and Strategic Stability

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Aug 2018 03:11

Rishi_Tri wrote:Brahmos Look Alike - RIM 8J Talos Missile

https://twitter.com/RishiTri76/status/1 ... 3376826368

Good catch. Look at Bomarc.