Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Gyan
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 24 Jan 2018 08:13

As per 1960s studies of NASA, as a thumb rule Ramjet missile has 3 times range of Conventional Solid fueled missile of Same Weight. On this basis I have been claiming for 10 years on BRF itself that Brahmos Hi-Hi-Hi dive range should be 900km or so. The Hi-Hi-lofted-Hi-Glide range can be upto 1600km.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Jan 2018 10:49

Is there manufacturing of MAN trucks within India? The Nirbhay Launchers looks Nice.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby putnanja » 24 Jan 2018 11:27

Aditya_V wrote:Is there manufacturing of MAN trucks within India? The Nirbhay Launchers looks Nice.


Yes, MAN trucks are manufactured in India at Pithampur, MP. Didn't know that the ShaktiMan trucks on IA were actually from MAN trucks initially!

History of MAN Truck & Bus in India began in the year 1958 with supply of the legendary SHAKTIMAN trucks to the Defence Ministry of India. However, MAN Trucks India started operations in India in 2006 as a joint venture. Eventually with the takeover of the joint venture, MAN Trucks India Pvt. Ltd became a wholly owned subsidiary of MAN Truck & Bus AG in 2012.


MTI at glance

MAN Trucks India Pvt. Ltd. is a fully owned subsidiary of MAN Truck & Bus AG, Germany. The company has its Head Quarters in Pune and state-of-the-art manufacturing facility at Pithampur, Madhya Pradesh. The product range manufactured in this plant include tippers for off-road & construction, haulage for regular & over dimensional cargo, and special application trucks such as fire tenders, garbage compactors, concrete mixers, boom pumps, tip trailers and bulkers. The product range for India is developed at MAN Trucks R&D centre in Pune. The trucks made in India are also exported to African and Asian markets. MAN Trucks offers prompt and efficient support through its network of 64 touch points in India and one each in Bangladesh, Bhutan and Nepal. The company has sold over 25,000 trucks since it started its India operations in 2006.

Aditya_V
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Jan 2018 11:58

Super, so Shaktiman was a rebadged MAn truck, with Ashok Leyland Stallion/Super Stallion, Tata 6by6 and 8 by 8 trucks, local manufactured MAN trucks, I hope the dependency of Imported and Rebadged Left Hand drive Tatra trucks goes away.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 24 Jan 2018 12:43

^^ indian manufacturers are still reportedly lagging behind tatra in suspension.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 24 Jan 2018 15:01

^^^ Everybody is lagging behind that Tatra suspension.

Agni-5 Launcher. Burkha on.
Image

Burkha off.
Image

From the following presentation
Image
The three new configs here which I had never seen before:
1. Two PDVs on the 12X12 platforms and
2. Two Prahars on an 8X8. Earlier configs only had one Prahaar/Pragati per 8X8.
3. 8 MRSAMS on an 8X8. Much more compact than the trailer version (shown below)that we have seen till now. Similar progression as Akash from trailer to 8X8 platforms.
Image

Image
^^^ For which missile?

One thing is for sure. Expect an IDRW report soon :D

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srai » 24 Jan 2018 19:58

Indranil wrote:...
Image
^^^ For which missile?

...


Looks like NAMICA carrier. Has two of those.
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prithwiraj » 24 Jan 2018 21:53

Can they take sharp bends and also are these off-road mobile? I am not an expert but I guess one of the key advantage of road-mobile launcher is its ability to fire and scoot. Given Indian road condition other than main highways rest of the local roads might have sharp bends with less than optimal driving condition.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 24 Jan 2018 22:16

K prasad wrote:x-posting from AI thread

k prasad wrote:
OK, talk by Dr. Saraswat:

This was a hurried talk, and Dr. Saraswat had to leave out many of the juicy, electronics and seeker related parts, and only give an overview of the missiles. Pity really.... anyway, what I did take down is here:

Advances in Indian Missile Technology
- Dr. VK Saraswat

Indian Missile development today are under two groups

- Tactical missiles, such as the Brahmos, Astra, LRSAM and the SRSAM
- Strategic missiles such as Agni 3, Agni-5, AAD, AD-1, etc.
- There is also the HSDTV {{it appears to be for missile use, but not sure}}

The initial missile technology programs began with Devil and Valiant - at this stage, up to the 1980, we were fully reliant on imports for our missiles. After the IGMDP, we have reduced the need for imports to around 50-70%. By 1990, when the IGMDP technologies began to mature, these numbers also dropped... by 2010-2020, our technology requirements should be complete, and we should be able to develop any class of missile on our own, although we will continue to have JVs to gain more technology.


A. Current Missiles:

Prithvi:

The first missile developed under IGMDP... Gave us the following capabilities:

- INS
- Rivets in Aluminium
- Liquid Propulsion Technology
- Digital Electronics
- Control and Guidance

- 3 Variants - P1, P2 and Dhanush (which requires a stabilized platform that can be stable to +/- 5 degrees even in rough seas)

Agni:

- A3 Flight tests are complete
- Production will start soon
- Is road mobile
- A5 in 2010

Astra:

- 3712 mm long, 78 mm diameter(or should it be 178 mm??), 160 kg weight
- Dual Pulse smokeless motor
- Low Observable wings
- Flight evaluation underway

BrahMos:
- Canisterized
- Homing head

Akash:
- 27 km range
- 30m - 18 km engagement {{altitude??}}
- Multi-target handling

Nag (Helina):
- Will have a FCS and a data link
- 7 km range

- 2 guidance modes being looked at - LOBL and LOAL
- LOBL will have a High res IIR seeker, with Fire and forget capabilities
- LOAL will use an RF data link and will have two modes, one of which is a Fire, observe and Guide mode (I didnt write down teh other mode)


B. Future Missiles:

1. LRSAM:

- JV between IAI and BDL
- 70 km range
- 4.55 m long, 225 mm diameter, 275 kg weight
- Boost to HTK (someone decode plz)
- Solid rocket pulse motor
- GPS + data link midcourse correction
- 4 Array PA radar seeker for terminal guidance (I think PA = Patch Antenna).

- Work under progress.

2. SRSAM:
- 15 km range
- 3-10 km altitude
- VLS launched
- Multitarget capable
- Will have Jet Vane TVC control - Jet vanes were used on the AAD, and will be used here as well. they are also developing the Si-SiC materials and ceramics reqd for the Jet vanes.
- Smokeless Solid Rocket motor
- Tri-service will be users
- Enabled for NCW ACCS

{{Please decode this info and the abbreviations}}

Currently under design - not mentioned if it was a JV or if we are going it alone.


C. Project AD:

We are looking at a layered defense engagement of incoming BMs. This can be done in 3 regions:

1. Boost Phase - 180-300 sec reaction time
2. Midcourse phase
3. Terminal phase - <30 sec reaction

We are going in for a late-midcourse & terminal engagement layered BMD system (PAD + AAD). This choice means that we need to give up the Shoot-look-shoot policy and go for a shoot-shoot-shoot doctrine.

The design is for a 2 layered TMD system, with first engagement at 70-100 km exo-atm altitude, and <30 km endo-atm engagement.

This calls for a wide area netwoork entailing distributed IP based WAN n/w., with Triplex communication redundancy, and a latency time of less than a few milliseconds.

All of this is highly advanced and complicated technology that we have developed.

Additionally, the maneuvering AD missiles need terminal RF seekers and 25-30G maneuverability.

1. PAD/AAD
- 2000 km assets
- 40-100 km (PAD) & 30 m to 30 km (AAD) engagement,.

2. AD-1/2
- Meant to kill 5000 km range assets
- Will have an IR seeker
- 5-6G eng manueverability
- Piff-paff solid motor {{I assume that this isn't some kids toy, so someone plz explain}}

3. Multiple Kill Vehicles (MKV)
- FOr MIRV kills
- will have autonomous terminal kill capability
- IR telescope dispenser and guided KVs
- High fire power approach
- Will attack at the exo-atm altitude

4. Cruise Missile Defense
- while missiles like AAD can easily handle CM threats at heights of 30 m, there is a need for different sensors, such as Space/airborne sensors, including satellite radars, UAVs, and AWACS. These Network of sensors must feed read time info to the mission control centre.

5. Counter-counter measures:
- Development of Counter-counter measures is also ongoing
- classified, so no info given.

D. Future Thrust Areas:

1. Airframe & materials:

- Accuracy and Reliability,
- Lighter missiles - while Indian missiles are state of the art in terms of performance, they are relatively heavier.
- High performance nanomaterials - Carbon Nanotubes
- Composite Casing

2. Propulsion:

- New propellants - high perm {{I wrote this, but cant seem to decode it now :-( }}
- Conical Rocket motors
- Carbon- Carbon thin nozzles
- Liquid fuel Ramjet

3. Guidance and Seekers:

- PGMs
- PGMS require cheap mini IIR/mmW seekers {{Rakall, you must be happy}} AND
- microminiature INS control.
- All our missiles have the indigenous INS,
- We are also coming up with System on chip INS in the near future.
- A Star Tracking Guidance is also under development - {{I wonder if this is for A5 or AD. It is not for BrahMos}}.

Seekers, a lot of work has been done on IIR, RF and laser seekers. However, we still do face issues.

- AAD has an indigenous RF seeker
- 20 kg weight
- AAD seeker can detect a 0.3 m2 RCS object at 30 km range.


- EO/IR seekers are also under development, in terms of dual mode MWIR and LWIR seeking {{I've written ladalar or something like here.... can someone decode??}}


4. Electronics:
- Electronically scanned array is required for RF seekers and other uses
- Smart Skins
- Conformal antennas

5. MIRV and Decoys:
- Are being developed
- Need active Em jammers
- Also need Thermal signature manipulation

E. Hypersonics:

- HSTDV will be a Hypersonic Cruise missile
- It will have Kerosone scramjet engine
- Travel at 6.5 Mach
- 32.5 km {{altitude??}}
- Has a scramjet flight duration of ~ 20 sec

It will have a solid rocket boost launch, after which the scramjet will kick in, to take it to 6.5-8 Mach. It will travel around 20 sec at this speed at the cruising altitude, before descending and being guided to the tawrget.

Propulsion requires a hydrocarbon based dual mode motor development. Other materials requirements are:

- Ti Superalloys are needed,
- So are TBCs
- And Thermal Paints


- Star Tracking could be for the HSTDV {{Could it?? I mention it because the star tracking slide was jst after HSTDV}}

F. Directed Energy Weapons:

We are also developing a High Energy Laser Weapon, similar to the American ABL, for Boost phase intercept.

This is a JV between LASTEC and RCI {{I spoke to some LASTEC guys about it, but there was absolutely no info that they'd give - in fact, they were even surprised how I even knew, till I mentioned saraswat... Will give a report on Lastec later. Have also sent a brochure of Lastec to rakall to scan}}

They have to factor in for guidance, changes in direction and attenuation. A continuous wave laser has been developed and has generated 10-15 kW of power.


Qns??

Was searching for Project Devil/Valiant on BRF and came across this gem ten years (almost) back.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 24 Jan 2018 23:15

Devil and Valiant were the DRDL projects in the 1970s.
Devil morphed into the Prithvi.

Valiant was still borne as its fuel technology was not achieved.

putnanja, During the 1960s vehicle factory Jabalpur started making ShaktiMAN and Nissan Jonga vehicles.

The former has a multi-fuel engine.
Looks like AL Stallion was started assy in VFJ after MAN was setup in India.

Tatra has its uses.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Bart S » 24 Jan 2018 23:21

Thakur_B wrote:^^ indian manufacturers are still reportedly lagging behind tatra in suspension.


Tatra was up for sale real cheap a few years ago, and can probably still be acquired, for a fraction of the cost of the license fees that BEML etc have been paying for decades. Tata or AL can easily purchase and absorb the company if they had any vision.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Raveen » 25 Jan 2018 01:20

Bart S wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:^^ indian manufacturers are still reportedly lagging behind tatra in suspension.


Tatra was up for sale real cheap a few years ago, and can probably still be acquired, for a fraction of the cost of the license fees that BEML etc have been paying for decades. Tata or AL can easily purchase and absorb the company if they had any vision.



Haha you don't realize - the moment they buy Tatra, the contract will go to someone else with Natashas and $ to spare for bribes

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 25 Jan 2018 02:08

srai wrote:
Indranil wrote:...
Image
^^^ For which missile?

...


Looks like NAMICA carrier. Has two of those.
Image

Yeah it does, but I am not sure it is. It may very well be for ATGMs, but the stabilization means it is for a platform to shoot while it is on the move?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2018 02:15

Raveen wrote:
Bart S wrote:
Tatra was up for sale real cheap a few years ago, and can probably still be acquired, for a fraction of the cost of the license fees that BEML etc have been paying for decades. Tata or AL can easily purchase and absorb the company if they had any vision.



Haha you don't realize - the moment they buy Tatra, the contract will go to someone else with Natashas and $ to spare for bribes


You may not know how close to the truth you are or maybe you know!

The Delhi based agent for the Tatra sales had the nerve to intimidate Gen V.K. Singh in his office.

He is still scot free in Delhi.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby AdityaM » 25 Jan 2018 08:22

These Missile laden trucks would be heavier than Arjun.
If that tank can’t cross bridges due to weight then how will these trucks

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 25 Jan 2018 08:42

AdityaM wrote:These Missile laden trucks would be heavier than Arjun.
If that tank can’t cross bridges due to weight then how will these trucks


They dont need to. They will be parked in a tunnel/shelter, wheel out and launch.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 25 Jan 2018 08:50

AdityaM wrote:These Missile laden trucks would be heavier than Arjun.
If that tank can’t cross bridges due to weight then how will these trucks

They don't need to go to the frontlines and cross nullahs and ravines and areas that may have to be quickly bridged by army engineers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Jan 2018 09:46

AdityaM wrote:These Missile laden trucks would be heavier than Arjun.
If that tank can’t cross bridges due to weight then how will these trucks


The weight argument in Arjun was also that bridges in Pakistan were took weak to support the extra weight, this launcher will be well within our borders.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby disha » 25 Jan 2018 10:40

ArjunPandit wrote:Was searching for Project Devil/Valiant on BRF and came across this gem ten years (almost) back.


Please do check out Wings of Fire by Dr. Kalam

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kurup » 25 Jan 2018 20:24

Mk2 version of Agni 4

Image

Image

Image

All credits to @Nexoft007 of DFI

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 25 Jan 2018 22:22

Question about our strategic missile program.. Why do we have so many of them? :-) Agni III, Agni IV, Agni V.. all appear to be China centric with similar longest dimension and similar throw weight. Why not standardize and focus all engineering resources on one or two missiles with the same TEL.. Say a MIRV Agni V, and a short stubby first stage of Agni III for Pak specific deterrent?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 25 Jan 2018 23:25

It was a gradual adhoc development. Its not particular model based program.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudeepj » 26 Jan 2018 01:12

ramana wrote:It was a gradual adhoc development. Its not particular model based program.


We really need a RAND corp and some McNamara type production engineers.. Apropos this news, what is the point of further developing a composite first stage for the IV.. Why not do it for the V directly and have a great missile.. Perhaps with a composite first stage, the V will become an ICBM and we dont want to send that message out. :-)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 26 Jan 2018 07:02

Cost i think and using already built parts

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby dinesh_kimar » 26 Jan 2018 08:19

^ The missile program used the technology available at the time.A2 was already in service, and based on SLV3 with existing supply chain , so A4 building blocks were in place and could be quickly realized. My speculation is that its easy for DRDO to produce and launch A4, so we have maximum launches and SFC tests using this type. There was a long lead time for making 2m diameter maraging steel casings for A3, and those big heavy solid motors.Realization of Each subsystem was a seperate project. Its a complicated system.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 26 Jan 2018 09:19

It was an iterative development. We will not discard tried and tested thing for the new kid on the block especially in aerospace nad rocketry.Each change in composite casing gives a higher understated range.
We may very well ahve different ranges for different rockets - this is an advantage to us as we have different resources for different needs. Not evey missile has to reach Harbin or any other point in the world. Putit in perspective- imagine what Agni 5 is with a lower composite casing if we say that Chinese claim is it is 8000 Kms with a maraging steel first stage? It is all a cat and mouse game.
Prasanna

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srin » 26 Jan 2018 10:05

Is composite the difference between Agni-2 and (ex) Agni-2 prime, which became Agni-4 ? So, there is scope for a Agni-5 prime ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 26 Jan 2018 10:14

^ that is the obvious unsaid thing.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 26 Jan 2018 10:28

Did you see the Nirbhay 4 tube launcher on Republic Day Parade ?
One thing is they usually do not display equipment that has not been inducted so wonder why Nirbhay was shown .

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 26 Jan 2018 10:46

prasannasimha wrote:Did you see the Nirbhay 4 tube launcher on Republic Day Parade ?
One thing is they usually do not display equipment that has not been inducted so wonder why Nirbhay was shown .

DRDO contingent can show uninducted systems under development. As can trial units like ASTE that showed Astra & BrahMos A on Air Force Day.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sum » 26 Jan 2018 12:46

prasannasimha wrote:Did you see the Nirbhay 4 tube launcher on Republic Day Parade ?
One thing is they usually do not display equipment that has not been inducted so wonder why Nirbhay was shown .

Trishul has been shown in earlier display.
So isnt a first time one

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kit » 26 Jan 2018 13:32

Guys the stratfor has published new pictures of the " Great himalayan showdown" ..suits western interests definitely...but one point i noted is that the Pralay is supposedly the weapon to counter Chinese superiority in missiles ., now what is its developmental status.. is this the hybrid ballistic hypersonic weapon that janes was talking about ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 26 Jan 2018 14:49

Indranil wrote:
Agni-5 Launcher. Burkha on.
Image

Why are the wheels on the A5 trailer so tiny? They look much smaller than standard truck wheels/tires almost the size pf passenger cars. Doesn't look like it might have much off road capability, or even potholed/rough road capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 26 Jan 2018 17:20

They are not small remember that the trailer is very large so it gives that appearance. Even the Radar trailers are big if you see them and they are smaller than these TELAR

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby pkudva » 26 Jan 2018 17:31

kurup wrote:Mk2 version of Agni 4

Image

Image

Image

All credits to @Nexoft007 of DFI



Can You get us the Link of the Detailed Article. Further What is DFI? Pls Elaborate

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby shiv » 26 Jan 2018 17:33

In any case these missiles will not go cross country until they are phyrred. Till then they will be on roads.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Mollick.R » 26 Jan 2018 17:43

Why are the wheels on the A5 trailer so tiny?


prasannasimha wrote:They are not small remember that the trailer is very large so it gives that appearance. Even the Radar trailers are big if you see them and they are smaller than these TELAR


from the posted picture i think abhik jee do have a valid point.

In the photo the wheels of the prime mover looks to be 40-50% larger than the wheels of trailer.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JTull » 26 Jan 2018 17:49

Special axle perhaps to lower the overall height of the trailer.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Jits » 26 Jan 2018 19:37

Image

Why can't we have a TEL like this. The weight and dimensions of TOPOL M are almost similar to Agni V (except the stated range)

Param, TOPOL M, Agni V
-------------------------------------
Weight- 47.5t, 50 t
Length- 22.5 m, 17.5 m
Diameter- 1.9 m, 2 m
Range - 11000 kms 5500 kms

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 26 Jan 2018 22:10

jits, I thought your post was by Singha.
DRDO cuts its cloth per their need. Roadmobile

Same with the Russians. Off road in Siberia.


kurup thanks for the post. Lots of great half lines.

Looks like they are following by adage 'Akal mand ko....'
This one gets the leavers mad!

Swapping a metal stage with a composite stage is quite easy when its ready.

The composite stage needs a steady reliable source of strong filament.
And wall insulator.
And all scaled up.

The conical motor is the marvel. Rest is relatively easy.
The conical motor makes it simpler to control aerodynamically. Inherently stable.

They are doing great job of incremental technology improvements.


Rest Haridas can tell us.


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