Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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Katare
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 03 Feb 2018 00:29

Singha wrote:>> We now put big retro motors, which create a thrust of four tonnes each – totally 16 tonnes of thrust – just to separate the stages so that no dead weight is passed on to the upper stage.

seems like tremendous overkill just to fire up from the top of first stage. these will be eating up weight and propellant that could otherwise make the 1st stage lighter or burn a few seconds longer. what size of rockets do the latest space faring munnas do H2, zenit and falcon use?

16ton is like a JSF engine on afterburner firing up :twisted:

These are tiny rockets, check out the picture in the link below to get the idea on how insignificant the weight penalty really is.

Picture

Link

Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 03 Feb 2018 01:38

JTull wrote:On the subject of composite stages, do we know if our ABM missiles have composite stages. They're fairly big missiles and making them composite will allow lower weight, more range, faster time to target, etc.

AAD is metallic. I am not sure if the second stage of PDV is metallic or not. The first stage certainly is. BMD missiles have to accelerate much faster than ballistic missiles. Therefore, they have their fuels casted in a way which allows for much faster burn. This places different kinds of stress on the airframe.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 03 Feb 2018 01:42

Prasanna sir,

They can suspend control signals momentarily while the staging is occurring.

As an aside, is closed-loop guidance engaged by the time the burnout of the first stage happens?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 03 Feb 2018 03:57

Closed loop guidance takes over somewhere within the 4th to 15th minute depending on mission profile. I will have to reconfirm the timing. The person who did it is a venerable teacher now.
Not sure 9f timing for all solid missile thoughwhere burn rate is dependent on train geometry and other modes are needed for closed loop guidance

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 03 Feb 2018 04:03

700 kms test seems to have way point navigation.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 03 Feb 2018 05:20

PSLV's close loop guidance starts in the second stage around 2 minutes.

Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 03 Feb 2018 05:34

By that time, tumbling due to atmospheric conditions is not a worry. And the controls from the open loop guidance can be momentarily paused for staging. Isn't it?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 03 Feb 2018 07:28

I think the issue is not stopping but the angle of the velocity vector of the 1st versus second stage during the firing when hot staging. Separation is a pretty violent event that induces perurberations

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 03 Feb 2018 08:24

My real doubt is that during separation the decelerating 1st stage is being acted by stage shut off and retrofiring and gravity that makes an offset angle of the net vector of ist stage versus second stage so assymmetric firing may need to be done to prevent clash of the second stage nozzle. If i remember right they have just 10 cm clearance do the stage separation for PSLV so must be precisely timed and more so Agni

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 03 Feb 2018 08:55

prasannasimha wrote:My real doubt is that during separation the decelerating 1st stage is being acted by stage shut off and retrofiring and gravity that makes an offset angle of the net vector of ist stage versus second stage so assymmetric firing may need to be done to prevent clash of the second stage nozzle. If i remember right they have just 10 cm clearance do the stage separation for PSLV so must be precisely timed and more so Agni

The only force which is not passing through the CG of those two respective forces is firing of the retro motors. In the paper they tell us they calculate the minimum clearance required for asymmetry caused by them. They obviously keep a clearance larger than that. By the way, the paper was awesome. I enjoyed going through it very much.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 03 Feb 2018 09:39

I read the paper too

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kurup » 03 Feb 2018 19:23

prasannasimha wrote:700 kms test seems to have way point navigation.


May be BMD test ..... just a guess .

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 04 Feb 2018 07:14

Singha wrote:smells like agni1 and prithvi2 . agni1 has not been tested for a long time.


When are we going to see an Agni-2 missile test? The last one, on May 4th last year, was a failure by most accounts.( interestingly, the very next day, May 5th, there was a spectacular success of the GSLV mark2 with South Asia satellite) Eagerly awaiting another test, Agni-2 is a very core missile in the strategic forces.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 04 Feb 2018 08:12

The failed test was K4 not Agni series

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 04 Feb 2018 08:15

Are you referring to the December/2017 tests of K-4 and also QRSAM? Agni-2 was last tested on May 4, it appears to have been a failure

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramdas » 04 Feb 2018 09:02

How are we to be sure that what Manu Pubby wrote on the K-4 test is correct ? GoI has kept this program under wraps, with no announcement ever of any test (though NOTAMS for this come and go). Plus The Print is Shekhar Gupta's fiefdom: everybody knows what agenda he has. In early 2017 there were expectations of a K-4 trial (going by what Hemant Rout wrote) on one or two occasions. At that time Saurav Jha tweeted about the K-4 test being postponed. Other articles indicated postponement due to technical reasons. The latest DRDO tech focus nevertheless refers to a successful trial in 2017. The only conclusion is that not everything even well intentioned journalists ``with sources" put out about the K-4 needs to be taken at face value...

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 04 Feb 2018 14:25

Same for the Agni 2 test some say aborted,not launched and another says flew a few mms and destroyed !
We have done x test announcing y many times.


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2018 11:49

If this is 1P, any pictures will be very interesting.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sum » 06 Feb 2018 12:10

Singha wrote:smells like agni1 and prithvi2 . agni1 has not been tested for a long time.

Perfect guess saar!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 06 Feb 2018 14:41

The missile test was an Agni 1A missile which is not the same. 900 Km range and pith and yaw capability. Probably doing Marv testing . The reentry vehicle would be slower than a full ir or ic bm

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2018 21:51

Wasn’t the Navarea warning for 700 km?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 06 Feb 2018 22:59

Navarea warning was 700 Kms but the test was done upto900 Kms - not sure how it was done or was it lobbed in a nonoptimal trajectory to simulate a 900 Km path ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 06 Feb 2018 23:31

Chaiwalla?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby PratikDas » 07 Feb 2018 11:48

sum wrote:
Singha wrote:smells like agni1 and prithvi2 . agni1 has not been tested for a long time.

Perfect guess saar!

First the Agni-1 and now this...
#India test fires surface-to-surface ballistic #missile Prithvi-II
#India test fires surface-to-surface ballistic #missile Prithvi-II which has the capability to strike 350 km away. The trial conducted as part of user training exercise of the army reconfirms its readiness to fire the weapon in a short notice. #Odisha @DRDO_India @NewIndianXpress

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 07 Feb 2018 12:06

Weren't there earlier reports of IAF phasing out Prithvi II for Brahmos, but given the numbers required, I think we need every missile we can get our hands on. There are more than enough targets we need to hit on the Pakis during the first few hours to ground the PAF, take out major radars and air defence network, Electricity, highways, artillery etc.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 07 Feb 2018 21:57

Prithvi II is an IAF special and gives them deep strike capability from the ground. Eventually it might go away but looks like quite here to stay.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 07 Feb 2018 23:25

Prithvi will be retired. Prithvi II is here to stay. Cheapest way to hit something 350 kms away. In order of distance for land based launches:

Artillery < Pinaka < Prahaar < Prithvi II < Agni 1P < Agni 2P < Agni 3P (not sure) < Agni 5 < Agni 6.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby dinesha » 08 Feb 2018 00:47

Revisiting the Agni-1 test with article published in Hindu and other news sites one thing that catches the attention is the mention of of the missile tested being 18th Version.

Nuclear capable Agni-I test-fired
http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp ... 672478.ece
The surface-to-surface, single-stage missile was launched as part of a regular training exercise by the armed forces.
India on Tuesday test-fired its indigenously developed nuclear capable Agni-I ballistic missile as part of a user trial by the Army from a test range off the Odisha coast.

The Strategic Forces Command of the Indian Army conducted the user trial of the 700 km range missile from launch pad-4 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Abdul Kalam Island in Balasore.

It was the 18th version of Agni-I, which could achieve all parameters within the stipulated time period, said defence sources.

The missile was inducted into service in 2004.

The surface-to-surface, single-stage missile, powered by solid propellants, was launched as part of a regular training exercise by the armed forces. The trial reconfirms the Army’s readiness to fire it at short notice, the sources said.

The Agni-I missile has a specialised navigation system which ensures it reaches the target with a high degree of accuracy and precision. It has proved its excellent performance in terms of range and accuracy.

The 15-metre-long Agni-I weighing 12 tonne can carry payloads up to 1,000 kg.

The last trial was successfully conducted on November 22, 2016, from the same base. IANS

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 08 Feb 2018 01:22

So its not the Agni 1P but the earlier version and is a user trial.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby PratikDas » 08 Feb 2018 04:41

Indranil wrote:Prithvi will be retired. Prithvi II is here to stay. Cheapest way to hit something 350 kms away. In order of distance for land based launches:

Artillery < Pinaka < Prahaar < Prithvi II < Agni 1P < Agni 2P < Agni 3P (not sure) < Agni 5 < Agni 6.

I suppose the Shaurya would sit beside the Agni 1?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby pankajs » 08 Feb 2018 10:07

I would read the "18th version" as "18th test".

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Feb 2018 11:54

Ballistic and Cruise Missile Threat
A good beginner's primer on missiles a/c the globe. Havent gone through in detail, but few tidbits from comparison of 2013 study
1. Agni V has moved from ICBM to IRBM
2. No.s of missiles have not changed since 2013, we can be confident that would not be correct
3. surprisingly, nirbhay doesnt find any mention
4. In general, cadence is neutral or non challant for india, unlike chaaina

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 08 Feb 2018 11:59

^ICBM to IRBM ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 08 Feb 2018 12:10

prasannasimha wrote:^ICBM to IRBM ?

yes, in 2013 Agni V was ICBM, whereas, in 2017 it is IRBM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 08 Feb 2018 13:07

PratikDas wrote:
Indranil wrote:Prithvi will be retired. Prithvi II is here to stay. Cheapest way to hit something 350 kms away. In order of distance for land based launches:

Artillery < Pinaka < Prahaar < Prithvi II < Agni 1P < Agni 2P < Agni 3P (not sure) < Agni 5 < Agni 6.

I suppose the Shaurya would sit beside the Agni 1?

If am guessing here, but if my hunch is right Agni 1P borrows the propulsion of Shaurya. While the former will follow a true ballistic trajectory subject to modifications at reentry, the latter can follow quasi-ballistic cruise profiles thanks to its wings.

Similarly, Agni 3P and K4 are related, both weigh in at just over 20 tons, and capable pf lobbing a 1-1.5 T payload to 3500 kms. The noses will be different.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 08 Feb 2018 15:53

Indranil wrote:Prithvi will be retired. Prithvi II is here to stay. Cheapest way to hit something 350 kms away.

From 2009, original Deccan Chronicle Link no longer working
viewtopic.php?t=5077&start=320#p631276
The Hyderabad-based Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL) — manufacturer of Prithvi I and Prithvi II missiles — had received the Centre’s directive to short-close the production in January 2009, sources told Deccan Herald.

The abrupt closure means the armed forces will be short of 40-odd Prithvi II missiles, as the BDL will deliver only a portion of the original order. Neither the defence ministry nor the BDL authorities have explained the reasons behind the closure.

The PSU was successfully delivering quality missiles systems as per schedule till the closure. The BDL management has now been instructed to finish off the few Prithvi missiles, which are in the last stages, and close the project, according to sources.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 08 Feb 2018 17:48

I wrote Prithvi II. I should have written Pralay. Pralay is the short range ballistic missile cousin of PDV. Both use two solid stages. Pralay can supposedly lob 800 kgs to 500 kms. Plan sanctioned in 2015.

So AAD:Prahar = PDV:Pralay.

2 Pralays will be carried in parallel in 12X12 trucks, or one per 8X8 truck.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 09 Feb 2018 02:52

Indranil wrote:
PratikDas wrote:I suppose the Shaurya would sit beside the Agni 1?

If am guessing here, but if my hunch is right Agni 1P borrows the propulsion of Shaurya. While the former will follow a true ballistic trajectory subject to modifications at reentry, the latter can follow quasi-ballistic cruise profiles thanks to its wings.

I take this back: Shaurya's upper stage is made of maraging steel. And Agni 1P has been reported to be an all composite missile. I have to wait to see how does Agni 1P shape up. Even lighter than 6 tons?

Indranil wrote:Similarly, Agni 3P and K4 are related, both weigh in at just over 20 tons, and capable pf lobbing a 1-1.5 T payload to 3500 kms. The noses will be different.

I would like to stick to this speculation. All arrows point in the same direction.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ashish raval » 09 Feb 2018 03:23

ArjunPandit wrote:Ballistic and Cruise Missile Threat
A good beginner's primer on missiles a/c the globe. Havent gone through in detail, but few tidbits from comparison of 2013 study
1. Agni V has moved from ICBM to IRBM
2. No.s of missiles have not changed since 2013, we can be confident that would not be correct
3. surprisingly, nirbhay doesnt find any mention
4. In general, cadence is neutral or non challant for india, unlike chaaina

Why should we care about useless d#@k measurements!! Little world knows anything about us better it is for us. As long as I can fire every part of your country by being 100 meters of your shore with nuke there is no way for an enemy to hide..anyone can ignore anyone at their own peril.


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