Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Prasad
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 01 Jun 2018 16:17

SSridhar saar
Spike is man portable. Indian alternative was in the works. No news as yet on where it is.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SSridhar » 01 Jun 2018 17:49

Prasad, thanks. Missed it totally.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kurup » 01 Jun 2018 19:04

3000km range missile test from ITR on 3rd or 4th June ,

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1002538995656429568

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 01 Jun 2018 19:20

John wrote: Akash Ramjet engine is also based on older design compare that with Brahmos liquid fueled Ramjet engine which has far higher burn time and speed.

Could you explain this please? I don't think we should compare solid fuel ducted motors with liquid fueled ramjet motors. How is the rocket motor of Akash inferior to that of SFDR/Meteor. The propellant is not boron-enriched, but the airframe itself can take a wider can handle side slip and negative AoA better.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nash » 01 Jun 2018 19:24

kurup wrote:3000km range missile test from ITR on 3rd or 4th June ,

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1002538995656429568


https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/998559244747091968

I don't think we get anything like this during mentioned time line. but recent SFDR can be that test

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/998554245237374978

similarly on this no info so far , got cancelled?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 01 Jun 2018 19:56

Ramjet flying directly is the shortest path. It has endgame energy

Solid fuels climb high to gain energy before burnout and then lose it in each hard turn to engage , unlike ramjets which have better level flight energy and keep turning and burning

Ramjet is the natural design path to scramjets like kinzhal ? and zircon which need to sustain combustion in supersonic airflow

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 01 Jun 2018 20:02

jaysimha wrote:will post when i get it. It will be my pleasure to share.

Jaysimha - can you post the original PIB links of the hi-resolution photos?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 01 Jun 2018 21:36

Singha wrote:Ramjet is the natural design path to scramjets like kinzhal ? and zircon which need to sustain combustion in supersonic airflow


This is an important aspect. Hypersonic missiles will have to use Ramjet engine to gain the speed required to ignite the scramjet and keep the missile size to manageable level.

In our case it ideally needs to be within 2.5 tons.. the capacity of SU-30 carrying Bmos. We can only achieve this using dual Ramjet+Scramjet engine.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 01 Jun 2018 22:50

Singha wrote:Ramjet flying directly is the shortest path. It has endgame energy

Solid fuels climb high to gain energy before burnout and then lose it in each hard turn to engage , unlike ramjets which have better level flight energy and keep turning and burning

Ramjet is the natural design path to scramjets like kinzhal ? and zircon which need to sustain combustion in supersonic airflow

No Singha Ramjet efficiency depends on altitude ( cannot be too high or too low). Even Brahmos flies a very optimized flight path to maximize range and it optimized to fly at around 15km.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kvraghav » 02 Jun 2018 06:58

Looking at the picture, the booster seems to be only for land based launches. Does this mean in a2a, booster is not required and aircraft speed is enough to ignite the engines? This should mean the minimum speed to ignite is less than the aircraft stall speed.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 02 Jun 2018 08:24

For Ramjet to kick in, the jet's plane has to be .9 Mach.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 02 Jun 2018 09:50

ET today reports only the nozzle less booster worked the second stage ramjet failed and it crashed

Nozzle less booster indicates the first stage is also a ramjet fed by the nozzles

So its a akash tipped with a meteor fed by common nozzle

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 02 Jun 2018 10:17

JV between us and Russia. Any more projects kept under wraps?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby jaysimha » 02 Jun 2018 10:36

tsarkar wrote:Jaysimha - can you post the original PIB links of the hi-resolution photos?


kamal he sirji,,,

PIB has not published the photos. they have just put 2 lines...

------------------------------------

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/PrintRelease.aspx?relid=179682

Press Information Bureau
Government of India
Ministry of Defence
31-May-2018 21:05 IST
Successful Flight Test of SFDR

The technology demonstrator flight test of ‘Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet (SFDR)’ propulsion based missile has been carried out successfully from the Launch Center-III of ITR, Chandipur, Orissa on yesterday. The flight test met all the mission objectives. The technology of nozzle less booster has been successfully demonstrated in the mission for the first time in the country.

****

NAo/Nampi/Rajib

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srin » 02 Jun 2018 11:45

Indranil wrote:
srin wrote:How is a ramjet powered missile better than a dual pulse rocket powered one ? Compare Akash and LR-SAM, where DRDO developed the propulsion in both cases. LRSAM is almost one-third the weight (275kg vs 720kg), but has three times the range (80km vs 25km) for the same warhead (all wiki specs onlee). I'd have thought that Akash would be lighter since it doesn't have to carry the oxidiser ...

Adding SFDR to the mix, how would it really compare against (as someone mentioned above) a multi-pulse rocket motor ? Would its weight class be LRSAM'ish or Akash'ish ?

Novices compare range and weight, the seasoned compare flight profiles. Please don't be a novice!

The jury on the advantages of rocket vs ramjet propulsion is still out. Ramjet gives much higher efficiency, so the missile has much more residual energy for the endgame. Rockets give higher acceleration and not prone to airflow distortions in the intakes. It is generally believed the Meteor is currently the worlds best AAM. Now SFDR has displayed all its characteristics.


Sorry IR, in this I'm novice onlee. Too many things I don't understand.

While the engineer in me looks at the technologies, there is the jingo in me wondering: which of Akash or LRSAM offers highest probability of kill for a target say 25 km away and say 10km altitude ? How does constant steady ramjet burn (but with low-G banking turns to keep the ramjet alight) compare with high accel+coast+again high accel dual-pulse rocket motor (with high G skid turn) at a third of its projected range.

Is a direct trajectory better than coast in stratosphere and drop down with high G ? I don't know.


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srin » 02 Jun 2018 11:51

I didn't know this - http://www.ausairpower.net/SP/DT-AAM-Evolution-March-2009.pdf
The other important technological development
of this period was the air-breathing throttled
rocket ramjet engine. Vympel made the critical
breakthrough during the 1990s and widely marketed
the RVV-AE-PD or ‘ramjet Adder’, subsequently
licencing the technology to the French, via ONERA,
who used it in the MBDA Meteor missile for the
Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and SAAB
Gripen Eurocanards.
While the Russian missile has
yet to appear outside mockups, the Meteor is now
well into its development with an IOC planned for
2013

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 02 Jun 2018 12:43

Austin wrote:https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-tastes-only-partial-success-in-ramjet-test/articleshow/64423073.cms


May be I am not understanding this report properly.

Nozzleless booster is part of the missile. The one seen in the image is ground launch booster. The booster on the missile is not powerful enough to kick off the ramjet, while firing from the ground.
So the ground launch booster is doing the job of jet firing.

The report says the ground launcher did not seperate. So nozzle less booster wouldn't have kicked in.

If you watch meteor videos, its launch is through a high power booster in the missile, very smoky compared to clean burn on astra.

If the nozzle less booster worked, thrn launch booster separated and reporter is talking nonsense.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 02 Jun 2018 13:17

BTW what exactly is a nozzle less rocket/booster?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 02 Jun 2018 14:37

Ok let's assume that the SFDR failed. Does that really matter in the long run.

I mean the DRDO will do the RCA and make sure that this failure is not repeated.

This may just delay the program by a few months. That's all.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 02 Jun 2018 16:12

abhik wrote:BTW what exactly is a nozzle less rocket/booster?


It is the booster inside the missile and is part of the missile. Used to launch the missile, just like how it is done in Akash & Meteor.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 02 Jun 2018 16:25

Pratyush wrote:Ok let's assume that the SFDR failed. Does that really matter in the long run.

I mean the DRDO will do the RCA and make sure that this failure is not repeated.

This may just delay the program by a few months. That's all.


It is not a failure. They are testing the tech.We are not Paks to get a perfect test everytime... and nothing work post production!

The most important thing is we are in the testing phase. Means we have jumped the tech design hoop and there is funding for this program.

We are testing a missile class which has NOT yet been inducted in IAF, in 5 years from 2013! When has such a thing happen before?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 03 Jun 2018 05:50

Singha wrote:ET today reports only the nozzle less booster worked the second stage ramjet failed and it crashed

Nozzle less booster indicates the first stage is also a ramjet fed by the nozzles

So its a akash tipped with a meteor fed by common nozzle


Common nozzle?
Ramjet has its own.

The report is not comprehensive.

It says ramjet did not work as booster stage separation fid not occur. Led to tumbling.
All from telemetry.
However does not clearly state if rather ignition occurred.
Usually separation and ignition are given at same time. Departing stage ignition propels it forward.

So they need to think it over why separation didn't occur?
Did ramjet ignite or not? Was signal sent and received?

This is the exciting stuff.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby thammu » 03 Jun 2018 08:17

nam wrote:
abhik wrote:BTW what exactly is a nozzle less rocket/booster?


It is the booster inside the missile and is part of the missile. Used to launch the missile, just like how it is done in Akash & Meteor.


What does nozzle less stand for?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 03 Jun 2018 09:58

thammu wrote:
nam wrote:
It is the booster inside the missile and is part of the missile. Used to launch the missile, just like how it is done in Akash & Meteor.


What does nozzle less stand for?


See this paper from IIT Madras folks to understand what nozzle less means.

https://www.scribd.com/document/8202374 ... erformance

After reading this, go back to the schematic posted by IR above, you will see the nozzle less booster in it.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prem » 03 Jun 2018 10:59

https://twitter.com/Hemant_TNIE/status/ ... 0428351488

#India successffully test fires 5,000 km range nuclear capable ballistic #missile Agni-V from Kalam Island off #Odisha coast. Developed by @DRDO_India...

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby thammu » 03 Jun 2018 11:06

JayS wrote:
thammu wrote:
What does nozzle less stand for?


See this paper from IIT Madras folks to understand what nozzle less means.

https://www.scribd.com/document/8202374 ... erformance

After reading this, go back to the schematic posted by IR above, you will see the nozzle less booster in it.



Thanks. Glanced at the article and got a fair bit of idea. Nozzle less leads to 15% less thrust so more fuel needed. Ramjet lacks oxidiser so more fuel can be carried. So the whole challenge is to match and optimise!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 03 Jun 2018 11:24

Livefist

Verified account

@livefist
Follow Follow @livefist
More
Just in: India’s 8,000-km range Agni-V nuclear ballistic missile test-fired from Odisha coast at 9.50am.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kurup » 03 Jun 2018 11:40

nash wrote:https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/998559244747091968

I don't think we get anything like this during mentioned time line. but recent SFDR can be that test


That test was postponed and the new date coincide with that of SFDR test ...... range was for 50km ... so its safe to assume that ramjet was not tested and only the nozzleless booster test was conducted.

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/998554245237374978

similarly on this no info so far , got cancelled?


The only test that coincide with this one is the last test of Brahmos .

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sarang » 03 Jun 2018 11:41

wow! 8000 officially,overnight.
was supposed to be 5000 officially. :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby kurup » 03 Jun 2018 11:41

Austin wrote:Livefist

Verified account

@livefist
Follow Follow @livefist
More
Just in: India’s 8,000-km range Agni-V nuclear ballistic missile test-fired from Odisha coast at 9.50am.


The warning was for just 3000km .

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sarang » 03 Jun 2018 11:42

kurup wrote:3000km range missile test from ITR on 3rd or 4th June ,

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/1002538995656429568


so thats extra 3000 I see! :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 03 Jun 2018 11:53

sarang wrote:wow! 8000 officially,overnight.
was supposed to be 5000 officially. :mrgreen:


Since when Livefist became official mouthpiece of GOI...?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nash » 03 Jun 2018 12:16

kurup wrote:
https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/998554245237374978

similarly on this no info so far , got cancelled?


The only test that coincide with this one is the last test of Brahmos .


this is interesting, so does it means we have tested Brahmos for full range from ship. wow

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2018 12:35

does akash. sa6, brahmos all have solid fuel booster inside the ramjet combustion chamber, which burns up to impart the necessary trigger velocity and then ramjet starts in the emptied chamber ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 03 Jun 2018 12:40

There was another 5K NOTAM that was deciphered by Kurup and corresponds to this test.

It ahs always been conjectured that this missile has at least an 8k range and is being purposely being underestimated. Official statement is it is a 5K+ missile whatever 5K+ means :rotfl: probably being lobbed in a depressed or overly high inefficient trajectory

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 03 Jun 2018 12:42

Image

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby thammu » 03 Jun 2018 12:43

India successfully test-fires nuclear-capable Agni-5
http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/india-successfully-test-fires-nuclear-capable-agni-5/article24071775.ece

The long-range ballistic missile has a strike range of 5,000 km
India on Sunday successfully test-fired from Dr. Abdul Kalam Island off the Odisha coast, its indigenously developed nuclear-capable long-range ballistic missile Agni-5 with a strike range of 5,000 km.

The surface-to-surface missile was launched with the help of a mobile launcher from launch pad-4 of the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Dr. Abdul Kalam Island in the Bay of Bengal at 9.48 am, defence sources said.

Trial a ‘total success’
This was the sixth trial of the state-of-the-art Agni-5. The missile covered its full distance during the trial which was a total success, they said.

“The flight performance of the missile was tracked and monitored by radars, tracking instruments and observation stations all through the mission,” the sources said.

Unlike other missiles of the series, Agni-5 is the most advanced with new technologies in terms of navigation and guidance, warhead and engine, said a Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) official.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby dinesha » 03 Jun 2018 13:04

Successful Pre-induction Trial of India’s Agni-V Intercontinental Ballistic Missile Takes It Closer To Deployment
http://www.delhidefencereview.com/2018/ ... eployment/
Earlier today, the Agni-V Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) developed by the Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO) successfully underwent what is being called a ‘pre-induction trial’, a sort of user assisted trial, that has taken it closer to deployment with India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC), which is the ‘user’ in question. This launch was also the third successful launch in-a-row from a canisterized road-mobile launcher. Moreover, this test-flight seems to indicate that residual problems with the Agni-V’s primary battery supplying on-board electrical power have also been resolved.

The development of the Agni-V Intercontinental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) certainly marks the arrival of India as a missile power. With a range of ‘easily more than 5,500 km’, the Agni-V clearly confers upon India the ability to hold all of China’s Eastern Seaboard cities at risk from Peninsular India. But then, there is more to this missile than its range capability. In technological terms, this missile represents the coming of age for India of a very long range payload delivery capability that is both rather accurate as well as survivable. Let us take a closer look at some of the Agni-V’s technological features of significance.

Guidance

The missile has a contemporary guidance package that utilizes an indigenous ring laser gyroscope based inertial navigation system (RLG-INS) developed by DRDO’s Research Center Imarat (RCI) in Hyderabad. For redundancy it also has a micro-electromechanical systems (MEMS)- based inertial measurement unit (IMU) called micro inertial navigation system (MINGS) that has been developed by RCI.

Both the RLG-INS and MINGS are capable of receiving multi-constellation updates from satellite navigation systems such as the American GPS and the Russian GLONASS as well as India’s satellite based augmentation system, GAGAN, to remove accumulated errors in their measurements.

The superior accuracy of the Agni V can also be attributed to the incorporation of a system on chip (SOC) based on-board computer (OBC) that weighs just 200 grams and boasts 6-7 times greater processor capability than legacy printed-circuit board (PCB) based systems which could weigh up to 5 kgs. This SOC-OBC has robust communication interfaces such as a three-channel bus etc and runs on fault-tolerant software. The embedded SOC concept used for both guidance and control requires very little power and gives far greater leeway in warhead configuration besides enhancing efficiency.

Use of Composites

Agni-V is not just more accurate, but is also more reliable and indeed survivable than legacy strategic missiles in the Indian Arsenal. While its 2.0 metre (m) diameter first stage motor is made of 250 grade maraging steel, its second and third stages have carbon fiber reinforced polymer (CFRP) casings.The second stage also has a diameter of 2.0 m. The total burn time for all three stages together is estimated to be close to four minutes.

The use of CFRP stages facilitates greater fuel fraction, enhancing range capability. In the future, even the first stage of the Agni-V will use carbon composite motor casings and that would take care of the issue of corrosion altogether and enhance overall structural integrity. The Agni-V also relies on digitally connected multi-channel communications within its body for the control system, thereby reducing a lot of the cabling that would have otherwise gone into such a missile. This serves to reduce the risk of failure in the missile system and increases dependability.


These features have all been validated in today’s launch, which was the fifth consecutive successful test of this missile overall. The use of corrosion-resistant composites and digital connectivity within the missile makes it easier to turn the Agni-V into a classic ‘wooden round’ – that is a canisterised missile system transportable by road and rail ready to launch on demand, with an almost maintenance free stowage and storage life of 10 years or so.

Cold launch scheme

Agni-V in canisterised configuration consists of a mission ready missile and a gas generator for ejecting the missile out of the canister to a height of about 30 metres, at which point the Stage-I motor ignites, and the missile speeds towards its target. This cold launch scheme allows the missile to be launched from relatively unprepared strips. Work on a steam-gas missile ejection system is currently underway for the Agni-V and other canisterized ballistic missiles.

The missile canister itself sits on the Agni-V’s Transport-cum-Tilting vehicle-5 (TCT-5), designed and developed by DRDO’s Vehicle Research and Development Establishment, Ahmednagar.

The Agni-V missile body is 17 metres long and has a launch weight of about 50 tonnes with a 1.5 tonne payload which is adequate to carry fusion boosted fission warheads with a yield of 200-300 kilotonnes.

Survivability against emerging anti-ballistic missile threats

Now, while an Agni-V locked and loaded sitting in a canister somewhere in India is not exactly what China likes to hear first thing in the morning, the middle kingdom could actually have more to worry about. The Agni-V’s re-entry vehicle shown in previously released pictures may turn out to be rather manoeuvrable making things difficult for emerging Chinese terminal anti-ballistic missile (ABM) defences. All three stages of the Agni-V in any case have flex nozzle control systems which enhance manoeuvrability during flight.

The future?

One more ‘user assisted trial’ by SFC and DRDO will be done before the Agni-V heads into early deployment with future trials being dubbed ‘user training exercises’. It may also serve as a baseline for a longer ranged and heavier missile that will carry multiple independently targetable re-entry vehicles (MIRV) and this missile may be designated Agni-VI. Despite, the Agni-V’s current potency, a MIRVed Agni-VI will be needed to guarantee penetration against China’s ABM system in the decades ahead.

At the moment, the Project Director for the Agni-V is G. Ramaguru whereas MRM Babu is the Director of the overall Agni Programme. Both of whom, along with Dr Sateesh Reddy, who is currently Scientific Adviser to the Indian Defence Minister and Director General, Missile and Strategic Systems, DRDO, were present for this morning’s Agni-V launch.

Saurav Jha is the Editor-in-Chief of Delhi Defence Review. Follow him on twitter @SJha1618

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 03 Jun 2018 13:08

Singha wrote:does akash. sa6, brahmos all have solid fuel booster inside the ramjet combustion chamber, which burns up to impart the necessary trigger velocity and then ramjet starts in the emptied chamber ?


Akash has. Most of the space is probably taken by this booster.akash is solid ramjet.
Brahmos has liquid ramjet and external droppable booster.

Sdfr SAM version, solid ramjet, internal nozzle less and droppable external booster to lift it off the ground. A better version of Akash set up. Of course ramjet on sfdr is more advanced than Akash.

I presume solid ramjets are faster than liquid ramjet. I may be wrong.


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