Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

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Gyan
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 06 Jun 2018 01:27

Indranil wrote:
Indranil wrote:Future Astra is not based on the Brahmos motor at all. If anything there are lessons learnt from Akash. But the motor and fuel in general is very different.

Meanwhile, Akash NG will most likely be canisterized. The inside of that canister (for testing its short burn motor) measures 367 mm X 367 mm X 4863 mm. There will be a guide rail on the top, and one wing rail each on the two sides. Draw your own conclusions.

Image

Courtesy: DRDL tender.

Courtesy another DRDL tender, the diameter of Akash NG is 250 mm, down from 350 mm on Akash. The length is down from 578 cm to 465-ish cm range. So, you can expect Akash NG to weigh less than half of the current Akash missile. Lighter, with longer range, with active seeker (may be even dual). This is world-class!


Can you share the tender? I was expecting Akash to be SA-17 size (incorrectly, it seems)

Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 06 Jun 2018 03:35

None of the DRDO tenders are share-able with a link. Please go to eprocure website. Click on "tenders by organizations-> Defence REsearch and DEvelopment Organization. Scroll down to tender "[FABRICATION OF SECTION -I ASSEMBLY]". Follow instructions, check downloads.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srin » 06 Jun 2018 06:50

Smaller diameter suggests that air scoops may be missing - are they planning to have Akash NG that is not ramjet powered ?

Added later: Duh, it may just mean that the fins are folded in the canister, and they unfold when it ejects.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 06 Jun 2018 06:53

Courtesy another DRDL tender, the diameter of Akash NG is 250 mm, down from 350 mm on Akash. The length is down from 578 cm to 465-ish cm range

That is just slightly more than Barak 8 (225mm x 4.5m from wiki). Hopefully the range is also comparable so there is no excuse left to buy Barak 8 anymore.

John
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 06 Jun 2018 07:58

abhik wrote:
Courtesy another DRDL tender, the diameter of Akash NG is 250 mm, down from 350 mm on Akash. The length is down from 578 cm to 465-ish cm range

That is just slightly more than Barak 8 (225mm x 4.5m from wiki). Hopefully the range is also comparable so there is no excuse left to buy Barak 8 anymore.

I am doubting those specs that is basically same as Barak-8/QRSAM.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 06 Jun 2018 08:09

Could it be just cansister orders for more barak8 ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 06 Jun 2018 10:31

Tender clearly states Akash NG.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 06 Jun 2018 10:51

Any ideas by when it is likely to be tested.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ashish raval » 06 Jun 2018 11:21

ArjunPandit wrote:
ashish raval wrote:Why do you think to test 5000km you have to travel 5000 km horizontally?

i hope you dont mean the length of trajectory :evil:

No. I meant in the context of range.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ashish raval » 06 Jun 2018 11:25

Kersi wrote:Guess Brahmos will be expensive option for 100km range isnt it? Smaller version of brahmos can be good thing and the option you suggested under developmrnt with drdo.
Realised we have klub, uran, krypton etc ..not to mention exocet on scorpene and loads of missile boats


What is krypton ? You have forgotten teh 'ood 'old Styx which of course should be on its way out

Kh-31. May be Russia has not offered it yet to anyone. Styx is very old I guess like Mig-21..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 06 Jun 2018 12:05

This page contains image of existing Akash Container

https://m.indiamart.com/proddetail.php?i=17092738412

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby JayS » 06 Jun 2018 12:06

Singha wrote:Could it be just cansister orders for more barak8 ?


Tender is for Nose cone not canister. Drawing of nose cone included. Base dia 250mm. And Akash NG written in capital.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2018 21:23

Lots of Twitteratti are suggesting recent A-5 test is more than normal.
Not revealing what it is.
Be on the look out.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramdas » 06 Jun 2018 21:28

@Ramana: I too saw suggestions from Nitin Gokhale that the recent A-5 test was more than normal (some twitterati hint at MIRV). The current A5 seems to have too narrow a third stage to be MIRV capable (unless they have decided to put some completely untested highly miniaturized warheads on it). MaRV with greater maneuvering capability is more likely.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 06 Jun 2018 21:49

I don't think its MIRV as the triple picture of the launch does not have a nose fairing and shows the bare payload.
So that is uninformed speculation or journalese.

Even MARV is not possible based on the picture as it does not have any hot gas ports.

I think the end fuze test was the real deal.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 06 Jun 2018 22:53

I think there are hot gas ports when you blow up the picture at least one big port can be seen.

However MIRV would require an ogival nose unless packed in a conical manner as some Russian MIC busses are done but would require a larger RV section unless we were purposely overp[acking from the beginning as a part of the plan

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 06 Jun 2018 23:43

Let's wait for A-6 and see what it's configuration is, MIRV/ MARV capability.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby RoyG » 06 Jun 2018 23:50

ramana wrote:I don't think its MIRV as the triple picture of the launch does not have a nose fairing and shows the bare payload.
So that is uninformed speculation or journalese.

Even MARV is not possible based on the picture as it does not have any hot gas ports.

I think the end fuze test was the real deal.


How does atmospheric detonation equate to more than normal? It was done with Agni I and I'm sure with all the other missiles as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 07 Jun 2018 00:36

Agony I was chota

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sankum » 07 Jun 2018 05:45

Partial image of Akash NG
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby dkhare » 08 Jun 2018 00:38

Anantha Krishnan M. aka Tarmak007 just posted an edited video of the Brahmos ALCM launch from an Su-30MKI on his blog site http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/

A few additional frames of video from on board the MKI and the after effects of a clean hit.
Probably no warhead in the missile but it hits the target alright.


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 08 Jun 2018 00:56

JayS wrote:This page contains image of existing Akash Container

https://m.indiamart.com/proddetail.php?i=17092738412

DRDL has now sent out a tender for a similar box for Akash NG (my uneducated guess). The missile weight is 340 kg +10%. So my former guess of Akash NG weighing less than half of Akash is correct.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 08 Jun 2018 10:55

This is the same direction as other SAM took , PAC-3 , 9M96E weigh less than half of its previous model because they use HTK technology with small warhead and using higher energy propellent , update electronics which are smaller/lighter and Radar/IR guidance , they are lesser in weight with smaller dimension

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 08 Jun 2018 10:58

In conversation with Chief Controller (Research &Development), DRDO, & CEO&MD, BrahMos Aerospace - Dr Sudhir K Mishra


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby jaysimha » 08 Jun 2018 17:51

Defence panel meets to talk time bound execution
Is India Reviving a $500 Million Anti-Tank Guided
Missile Deal With Israel?
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/npc/2018/june/din-08june2018.pdf

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 09 Jun 2018 10:39

Clinton warned Sharif of dangers of going to war with India: excerpts from The Most Dangerous Place by Srinath Raghavan

The link has a picture at the top of some Indian Jawans carrying 2 distinct types of Missiles. Am not able to identify them. Can some one help


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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SaiK » 11 Jun 2018 07:59

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 533918.cms
DRDO to deliver advanced Pinaka rocket version by 2020

2 lakh rockets needed!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Avarachan » 12 Jun 2018 09:39

ramana wrote:
Philip wrote:Could Akash be developed into a naval SAM system too? I know that the B-8 supposedly a JV with Israel but depends hugely upon it, has been earmarked for our principal warships as principal anti-air/missile defence.However, a secondary desi SAM system based upon Akash could be very useful also and probably much cheaper.


Philip A naval use weapon has to be designed ab initio with marine environment in mind. All sorts of anti-corrosion measures etc have to be incorporated from design stage.
Having said that IN already has quite a few SAMs in work.
Arms JVs are alliances and not really about arms purchases.


Ramana, I suspect that a naval version of the Akash will go on Kamorta-class corvettes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamorta-class_corvette

Given Israel's ties to China and the U.S., it would be wise for the Indian Navy not to rely solely on the Barak 8 (LRSAM).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 12 Jun 2018 19:24

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/10 ... 9069830144
BrahMos precision strike with homegrown seeker

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 12 Jun 2018 19:26

Clean strike by BrahMos on maiden launch from Sukhoi

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 12 Jun 2018 20:08

After Russia and China, Israel has developed an air launched ballistic missile by slightly modifying an artillery rocket. The sustem is called Rampage, built using an EXTRA artillery rocket. An F-16 can carry four such missiles with a standoff range of about 150 kms. The Israelis tout the supersonic speed as an advantage.

Should India join the bandwagon?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 12 Jun 2018 21:01

Why not it will be another tool among many others , they can make guided piñaka or Ashwini as albm

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 12 Jun 2018 21:34

Indranil wrote:After Russia and China, Israel has developed an air launched ballistic missile by slightly modifying an artillery rocket. The sustem is called Rampage, built using an EXTRA artillery rocket. An F-16 can carry four such missiles with a standoff range of about 150 kms. The Israelis tout the supersonic speed as an advantage.

Should India join the bandwagon?


I saw that. It has canards to guide it.

The Pinaka2 would be ideal in that mode.
It has the canards guidance already and the warhead is a useful weight and comes in three variants.
It would be less expensive than new development of 150 kms AGM.

Things of concern are
1) aerodynamic heating of the rocket body
2) stores separation from aircraft.
3) How to pass the target info from the aircraft to the missile avionics?

CFD studies can prove feasibility.

Have you seen the stores separation video from USAF?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 12 Jun 2018 23:38

If we go down Israel's path, Pinaka Mk2 airframe won't have to be changed much. Store separation is through gravity drop and delayed firing, just like the Brahmos launch. But neither Pinaka nor Prahaar is ideal.

1. Both these missiles are slender and long (for different reasons). Their length to width ratio is not ideal for air launch.

2. Let's move away from the puny 150 kg warheads.

If I were to design such a munition, I would go along the lines of Kh-15, except with a form factor of about 75% smaller in size:
1. I would lower the launch weight to 800 kgs and increase payload to over 300 kgs.
2. To achieve this I would trade off the 5 M terminal velocity to 2-3M, and the 300 km range for around 200 kms. This would mean that the munition will have to climb much lower after the launch, thereby significantly lowering the size of the rocket motor required.
3. We don't need to follow a ballistic path after burnout. I would add midbody wings like those in Brahmos.
4. Finally, we might consider using a small rocket for accelerating the munition just before impact.

A missile of this size and weight can be carried by all our strike aircraft including LCA and Jaguar. Also a 300kg warhead means that they can take on some serious targets.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 13 Jun 2018 00:43

All those changes make it a new missile.

Kind of defeats the minimal changes that Israelis did.


BTW 250 lbs (forget kg!)weapon does grievous damage if it has the proper CEP.

So 150 Kg i.e ~340lb is good enough with Pinaka2 accuracy.

usually explosive filling is only 20%.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Vips » 13 Jun 2018 01:56

Indian Army test-fires Smerch rockets, hits targets 90 km away.

In yet another boost to the Indian Army, the Smerch guided missile-cum-multi barrel rockets successfully hit targets around 90 kilometres away at Rajasthan's Pokhran field firing range on Monday to clear the trial. Developed jointly by India and Russia, two versions of the Smerch - 9MMF and 9.55K - were test-fired.

A team senior Indian army officers and Russian scientists witnessed the test firing. The missiles/rockets are state-of-art and their direction can be controlled/changed to hit moving targets or if they deviate from their course. The Smerch uses stabilisers made at Kanpur’s Ordnance Factory Board. The stabilisers are the wings of the rocket which cannot be fired without them.

A similar test firing of the Smerch in 2017 had failed as the rockets missed the target and went awry. The 48.5 tonne Smerch with the Indian Army can fire seven types of rockets.

India is already developing and had in January 2017 and May 2018 successfully test-fired an upgraded version of Pinaka multi-barrel rocket launcher to replace the Smerch. "The Pinaka Rocket converted to a Guided Pinaka was successfully test-fired from Launch Complex-III, ITR, Chandipur today. The Pinaka Rocket Mark-II, which evolved from Pinaka Mark-I is equipped with a navigation, guidance and control kit and has been transformed to a Guided Pinaka. This conversion has considerably enhanced the range and accuracy of Pinaka. The test-firing has met all mission objectives. The radars, electro-optical and telemetry systems at Chandipur tracked and monitored the vehicle all through the flight-path. The Guided Pinaka is developed jointly by ARDE Pune, RCI Hyderabad and DRDL Hyderabad. ITR Chandipur provided the range and launch support," the Ministry of Defence has said on January 12, 2017.

The Pinaka Mark-II has a range of more than 70 kilometres and it can fire a salvo of 12 rockets in 44 seconds.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakkaji » 13 Jun 2018 02:21

SaiK wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/pune/drdo-to-deliver-advanced-pinaka-rocket-version-by-2020/articleshow/64533918.cms
DRDO to deliver advanced Pinaka rocket version by 2020

2 lakh rockets needed!


So, are they going to wait for the advanced version to be ready, or will they continue ordering Mk1 for now to plug the shortage in numbers of MBRL?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby srin » 13 Jun 2018 07:42

Vips wrote:Indian Army test-fires Smerch rockets, hits targets 90 km away.

In yet another boost to the Indian Army, the Smerch guided missile-cum-multi barrel rockets successfully hit targets around 90 kilometres away at Rajasthan's Pokhran field firing range on Monday to clear the trial. Developed jointly by India and Russia, two versions of the Smerch - 9MMF and 9.55K - were test-fired.

A team senior Indian army officers and Russian scientists witnessed the test firing. The missiles/rockets are state-of-art and their direction can be controlled/changed to hit moving targets or if they deviate from their course. The Smerch uses stabilisers made at Kanpur’s Ordnance Factory Board. The stabilisers are the wings of the rocket which cannot be fired without them.


I'm a bit baffled. Are we jointly developing a guided Smerch with Russians ? I'm unable to filter out the DDMitis in this report.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 13 Jun 2018 07:46

Kakkaji wrote:
SaiK wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/pune/drdo-to-deliver-advanced-pinaka-rocket-version-by-2020/articleshow/64533918.cms
DRDO to deliver advanced Pinaka rocket version by 2020

2 lakh rockets needed!


So, are they going to wait for the advanced version to be ready, or will they continue ordering Mk1 for now to plug the shortage in numbers of MBRL?


Let's look at procurement budget. I am sure that the pinaka mk2 will be more expensive than the mk1. Due to the guidance package fitted to it.

Also let's try and find out if there is a split between mk1 and mk2 orders.


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