Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by ramana »

Singha wrote:some people say nirbhay components would need some downsizing, and engine become more next-gen to keep the same fuel , speed, range yet improve payload. it is not as cutting edge as the latest tomahawks.
I am sorry but on what basis are you making these statements?

I showed in the engine thread the Manik is higher thrust and the navigation system is way better once it works.

and 200 kg with Nirbhay accuracy can do a lot of damage. its close to 500 lb bomb.
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by ramana »

srai

Next logical step would be Precision Guided 250kg HSLD.

Wondering if DRDO's ARDE is designing 125kg HSLD (for swarm-attack) and a 900kg HSLD (for bunker-busting)?

Both the 250 kg and 450 kg HSLD look like forged casing vs. 1000 lb MC which is a cast casing.
This improves hard target capability.
OFB makes the 110-120 kg OFB which doesn't look like it can be upgraded to PGM.
I guess the 125 kg would make sense. The PGM kit has to be made affordable with non-active NEXU for the fins and active GPS-INS tail unit. Not all targets need the 3m precision.
Maybe the 125 kg class SAL could be based on commercial phone camera chips to cut down the cost.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by SSridhar »

Any news about the 25th/26th tests for which a Notam was issued?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by kurup »

SSridhar wrote:Any news about the 25th/26th tests for which a Notam was issued?
NOTAM cancelled ..... So test postponed .
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by arun »

^^^ Disappointing news that the NOTAM has been cancelled indicating the test stands postponed.

Time for GOI to contract Kim Jong Un to give some “Field Guidance” to DRDO and repeat the rapidity with which the Pukguksong project has moved along :?:
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by ramana »

Arun, The 25/26 may NOTAM was most likely for the Nirbhay. Now read that along with the Rout article posted previously expressing doubts about glitches and lack of FIT assent to resume flight test. And the source expressing doubts about the glitches in FCC software.

So more reviews and bench tests.
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by ramana »

Kim Jong Un's missiles have been exploding after launch. Not exactly inspiring track record.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Prem »

kurup wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Any news about the 25th/26th tests for which a Notam was issued?
NOTAM cancelled ..... So test postponed .
https://twitter.com/shatrujeet009/statu ... 7790630913
Postponed till 31 may .
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by ramana »

This is good news. So has been cleared for flight test.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by shiv »

This is bittersweet news for the jingo. Everyone - especially in South India are happy to be receiving heavy pre monsoon showers and are hoping for copious rains after 3 years of drought. That said - even a few days ago Odisha and parts of Andhra were sizzling in 45 degrees plus heat. But the Monsoon is advancing and a good monsoon will play havoc with missile testing schedules.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Singha »

Almost feels like Indranil tender analysis post

http://idrw.org/drdos-rudra-m-ii-missil ... over-soon/
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by kurup »

Two missile tests scheduled ..... May31 & Jun1 - Nirbhay ..... Jun1 & Jun2 - ????

INDIA EAST COAST – OFF BALASORE (.) CHARTS 31 351 352 353 INT 71 (.)

EXPERIMENTAL FLIGHT TRIAL SCHEDULED FROM ITR ON

(A) 31 MAY AND 01 JUN 17 FROM 0430 - 0830 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 21-19.70N 086-53.27E, 20-24.67N 087-13.73E, 19-18.56N 085-39.54E, 18-55.64N 086-00.14E, 20-35.14N 088-12.68E, 21-13.98N 087-57.30E, 21-35.58N 087-10.69E

Image


(B) 02 AND 03 JUN 17 FROM 0330 - 0730 UTC IN DANGER ZONE BOUNDED BY 21-12.59N 086-46.14E, 19-47.07N 087-51.90E, 20-10.54N 088-23.02E, 21-13.98N 087-57.30E, 21-35.58N 087-10.69E
Image


2. CANCEL THIS MSG 030830 UTC JUN 17
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Kakarat »

Promoting PM Modi's Make in India, Jaitley chooses Indian vendor for Rs 18000 crore army missile contract
Defence Minister Arun Jaitley met the Defence Acquisition Council last week to decide who to approach for air missile systems, and decided to go with Akash surface, keeping in mind PM Modi's Make in India campaign.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by arun »

kurup wrote:Two missile tests scheduled ..... May31 & Jun1 - Nirbhay ..... Jun1 & Jun2 - ????
Jun1 & Jun2 - LRSAM?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Karthik S »

185km seems pretty much on high side for LRSAM.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Austin »

The test area has 2-3x times prohibited area for NOTAM just to be on safe side , Does not mean that the entire 180 km would be used for test purpose but its a safety net provided to err on safe side.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Eric Leiderman »

Talking to a friend of mine , he is on a DP (Dynamically positioned ) merchant vessel.
In the splash down area, There is a lot of security at least 2 medium sized surface ships, he suspects there is a sub and multiple helis, not to mention a whole lot of Marcos. So mischief by certain states would be an issue.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by vina »

Saw in Al-Hundi this morning. The Army's planned acquisition of 2 regiments of SR-SAM has been canned and they have been ordered to by 2 regiments of Akash by the MOD.

Good show! Now do the same thing with the LCA Mk1A and Mk2 and the Single engine fighter nonsense.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by jamwal »

SR-SAM would be SPYDER system ?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Marten »

No Saab/KSSL/Hinduja or Maitri spinoffs either? Or am I confusing IN SR-SAM with that of IA.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by kurup »

Nirbhay again postponed .
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by tsarkar »

^^ All three services had their separate SRSAM requirements. The IAF dumped its requirement in favour of Akash. Now the Army. Only Navy has a SRSAM requirement for an active homing missile to replace Barak-1

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/02 ... ce-in.html
The SR-SAM programme was all but sunk last year when the Indian Air Force said the Indian Akash SAM it deployed was sufficient for the short range air defence role, and that it didn’t feel the need for a separate SR-SAM.
ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by ramana »

kurup wrote:Nirbhay again postponed .

Any news reports/
is it due to onset of monsoon?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Gyan »

Let's see Barak Vs Akash score board.

Barak-1 US$ 1 Billion ?

Barak 2 Navy US$ 365 Million ( or US$ 1 Billion)
Barak 2 Army, IAF US$ 2.5+2.5 = 5 Billion
Barak 2 Navy US$ 630 Million

Spyder US$ 1.2 Billion (Not really Barak but I just threw it in)

Roughly Rs. 60,000 crore (Escalation???)

Akash IAF 15 squadrons around Rs. 10,000 crore
Akash Army 4 Regiments around Rs. 40,000 crore
Additional components of Akash Programme like radars Rs 5,000 crores
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by rohitvats »

What was IA's SR-SAM requirement? Which missile was in competition?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Austin »

Gyan wrote:Let's see Barak Vs Akash score board.

Barak-1 US$ 1 Billion ?

Barak 2 Navy US$ 365 Million ( or US$ 1 Billion)
Barak 2 Army, IAF US$ 2.5+2.5 = 5 Billion
Barak 2 Navy US$ 630 Million

Spyder US$ 1.2 Billion (Not really Barak but I just threw it in)

Roughly Rs. 60,000 crore (Escalation???)

Akash IAF 15 squadrons around Rs. 10,000 crore
Akash Army 4 Regiments around Rs. 40,000 crore
Additional components of Akash Programme like radars Rs 5,000 crores
Cant compare the two system both are needed both have different ranges and capabilities , Barak-8 is like 1 or 2 generations ahead compared to Akash system atm. Even Spyder systems are like one gen ahead
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by K_Rohit »

tsarkar wrote:^^ All three services had their separate SRSAM requirements. The IAF dumped its requirement in favour of Akash. Now the Army. Only Navy has a SRSAM requirement for an active homing missile to replace Barak-1

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/02 ... ce-in.html
The SR-SAM programme was all but sunk last year when the Indian Air Force said the Indian Akash SAM it deployed was sufficient for the short range air defence role, and that it didn’t feel the need for a separate SR-SAM.
But we did acquire the Spyder? And thats not a naval system?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by tsarkar »

rohitvats wrote:What was IA's SR-SAM requirement? Which missile was in competition?
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 425298.cms

Spyder, Tunguska derivative and RBS-70 when Sweden itself uses IRIS-T from Germany. The last two failed testing. RFP should be issued only if indigenous options are unavailable.
K_Rohit wrote:But we did acquire the Spyder? And thats not a naval system?
Yes, for IAF & IA in the last decade.
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/indi ... 93019.html
http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/ ... 03851.html
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by tsarkar »

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/bram ... 86323.html
"In another year, we can go to 70 per cent in terms of indigenisation but not beyond. We do not have an alternative to ramjet or seeker", said Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director Dr Sudhir Kumar Mishra who doubles up as the Chief Controller (Research & Development), DRDO.
GoI & MoD needs to really improve contract negotiation skills.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Philip »

If Akash meets the mil specs and can do the biz,then "more the merrier".However,there should be a continuing dev. programme to upgrade the system if it has been found inferior in some respects to the competition it had.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by srai »

Philip wrote:If Akash meets the mil specs and can do the biz,then "more the merrier".However,there should be a continuing dev. programme to upgrade the system if it has been found inferior in some respects to the competition it had.
Hence, Akash Mk.1S and Mk.2 :wink:
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by ashishvikas »

Akash NG will be ready for trials in 2 years. #BEL

https://twitter.com/writetake/status/869805690478526464
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Gyan »

tsarkar wrote:http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/bram ... 86323.html
"In another year, we can go to 70 per cent in terms of indigenisation but not beyond. We do not have an alternative to ramjet or seeker", said Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director Dr Sudhir Kumar Mishra who doubles up as the Chief Controller (Research & Development), DRDO.
GoI & MoD needs to really improve contract negotiation skills.
Seeker, Ramjet represents 90% cost of the missile.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by sum »

^^ Wasnt there some news about the Seeker being indigenised by local cos like Data Patterns etc?

Or was that abandoned due to techincal issues?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Philip »

Case in point.MIssile manufacturers usually develop tri-service missiles out of one progrramme. What about ASTRA? Surely it can be adapted for naval and air deence use?
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Prasad »

Data patterns is building an rf seeker. Another company is too. Alpha. The person Manning their stall at AI '17 said they're 'bidding' for an ind seeker project/replacement. So tifwiw.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Singha »

Philip wrote:Case in point.MIssile manufacturers usually develop tri-service missiles out of one progrramme. What about ASTRA? Surely it can be adapted for naval and air deence use?
the ngarm has used some astra tech i think. in due course we should see a active radar Astra SAM in mould of the VL mica/derby.

Nag / Helina imo has a lot of potential..but not being developed much.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Singha »

my reading of the scene. import substitution needed marked
helina/nag - sofradir seeker
astra - agat seeker
brahmos - russi engine and seeker
ngarm - 100% desi ARM seeker now ?
akash - fully desi (?)
barak8 - seeker
SAAW/garudamma/garuda - fully indigenized?
nirbhay - turbofan engine

^^ all the above would replace the R77, KH31, KH59, Armat, durandel, AS30L, popeye, kornet, konkurs, SA6/3 currently in service.

R60 would likely get replaced by python5

we need a family of "aesa" seekers in X and mmw band starting from atgm size to brahmos size. perhaps using common components and back end processors. this problem I am confident will be beaten once and for all within 10 years.

the other crown jewel will be the desi turbofan engine for nirbhay.

we can then play around like lockheed and boeing do, mating a variety of seekers, warheads, chassis and engine to come up with new weapons quickly.
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Philip »

Multi-use Astra should be actively pursued,as it would eliminate the need for a similar firang system,also is smaller than Akash and should be cheaper too.However,this re[port needs to be evaluated for accuracy. One int. point is that Akash weighs 700KG+ while Astra weighs only 150KG+ Even Astra MK-1 should serve the SRAAM requirement easily. Being this light,its use aboard naval vessels would be preferable too.

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/hom ... us-efforts
Indian Astra Missile Still Needs Russian Tech To Find Targets
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi, December 19, 2016 (Photo Credit: Alexander Nemenov/AFP via Getty Images)
NEW DELHI — In conflict with claims that India's 40-kilometer-range Astra Mark-1 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM) is indigenous, the Indian Air Force (IAF) says it will forever be dependent on Russia for the missile's critical technologies.

The IAF says the missile's developer, state-owned Defence Research and Development Organization (DRDO), simply cannot produce it fully in-house.

"The missile seeker (main part for guidance) is based on Russian R-77 radar seeker in Astra Mark-1, and the homemade seeker has not been developed," according to a senior IAF official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The seeker helps in firing the missile from beyond visual range, tracking and then locking onto the target, the IAF official explained. It also provides the capability to follow its target despite complicated maneuvers, the official added.

"Astra missile is unlikely to be fully indigenous, as critical components like active sensor and proximity fuses would have to be imported as of now," said Daljit Singh, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst.

However, a DRDO scientist said the "radio frequency seeker is a transfer of technology from Russia, but the other subassembly is indigenous."
"After the latest tests (Dec.11-13), Astra Mark-1 missile will get into induction stage in another six to eight months," according to the DRDO scientist.
But the IAF official said the service may not induct the Astra Mark-1 missile because it's unsure if it will even be proven in the field.

Defense News
India, Russia Sign Defense Intergovernment Agreements
The IAF is currently pushing for a longer-range BVRAAM. "IAF has already told Ministry of Defence that it will mount only an upgraded version of Astra missiles on Light Combat Aircraft-series fighters," the IAF official noted.

DRDO has already begun work on the Mark-2 version of the Astra missile with a range of up to 100 kilometers, similar to the French Meteor BVRAAM, the DRDO scientist said.

Defense News
India Seeks Global Ties for Its Light Combat Aircraft Mark-1A Program
"With China having tested a very-long-range air-to-air missile early this year and Astra Mark-2 missile remaining the main requirement of IAF, which is still in initial stages of development, India will need to import advanced BVRAAM soon," another IAF official said.

Astra Mark-1 missile is a single-stage, solid-propellant missile that is 3.57 meters long and flies at more than four times the speed of sound at Mach 4.5.

"The technology used in Astra missile is more sophisticated than indigenous Agni (ballistic medium-range nuclear-able missile), as it works on a terminal active radar seeker and an updated mid-course internal guidance system that helps the missile in locating the target," according to the DRDO scientist.


Indian fighter aircraft are currently armed with Russian, French and Israeli BVR missiles.

"Astra missile, however, is not likely to be cheaper than other fully developed BVR missiles, considering the extent of research and development funding and other development costs," defense analyst Singh added.
*(But even if equally expensive,the money will mostly stay at home.If a mul;t-use Astra is developed,it will bring down costs even further.)
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions-May 2017

Post by Singha »

Iaf really has no option but to use astra mk1 on the hue russian origin fleet. Being radar guided no western option is possible. And r77 is suffering high failure rates. It uses same or similar seeker from agat

I am sure import lobby will try to get meteor for rafale and tejas
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