Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

[Kakarat]

New Test with a range close to 3000km scheduled.

https://twitter.com/kurup89/status/940942644930162688

Which missile should be this ?

The test is from Visakhapatnam so it should be a K-4 SLBM

[prasannasimha]

Says SLBM Test, so should be K-4, hopefully from INS Aridham or INS Arghat. Always thought K-15 and K-4 BGRV's

Has to be K4

[Karthik S]

Gurus, no takers for this question so far, but saw some random articles about Agni 6 scheduled to be tested sometime now. Anyone heard about it? Or have we shelved it due to fear of sanctions. Our K6 SLBM is based on Agni 6 MIRV as well.

[sum]

Says SLBM Test, so should be K-4, hopefully from INS Aridham or INS Arghat. Always thought K-15 and K-4 BGRV's

SU article had mentioned submerged pontoon firing would be done soon for the K4. So guess this test was being referenced

[kurup]

Test scheduled from 16 to 18 for a 3000km range SLBM

[Gagan]

Wonder if it will be from the Arihant or from the submerged pontoon
Maybe they are testing the Arighat's launch system?

[Karthik S]

Wonder if it will be from the Arihant or from the submerged pontoon

What's the point in testing from pontoon when two subs are already in the sea and the missile has already been pontoon tested.

[shiv]

They may say pontoon and test from sub no?

[Karthik S]

They may, I was referring to the actual test rather than press release.

[Prasad]

We all dhoti shiver from time to time after reading 'puny' ranges of 3000km, 4000km etc compared to supapowa 10,000km icbm ranges. Check out Vizag-Beijing distance if you're shivering in your dhoti right now.

[Gagan]

Wonder if it will be from the Arihant or from the submerged pontoon

What's the point in testing from pontoon when two subs are already in the sea and the missile has already been pontoon tested.

Good point.
But if the missile is under testing, they will want to play it safe and use the pontoon instead of risking a multi-billion dollar sub.
It all depends on what system they are testing.

Tests post induction are from the Navy platform of course

[ramana]

Gagan, If I recall K-4 testing was supposed to be one more before being declared operational. So could be pontoon.

[krishna_krishna]

Gagan, If I recall K-4 testing was supposed to be one more before being declared operational. So could be pontoon.

Edited : Ramana garu, chaiwala says its K4 from arihaant , another test for K5planned Q1 2018. Also Chaiwala says we have three boats in water right now.

Total guess work (Take it FWIW):

S1 Some TD submarine (I remember some chief claiming that third leg was under water alive and kicking during heat up with porkis in 2000's) (In Water)
S2 Arihant aka converted SSN (Arihant class multipurpose boat ) (In Water)
S3 Arighat (Arihant class multipurpose boat ) (Launched)
S4&S4* Unnamed ( My guess INS Aridaman, Aridaman Class true SSBN) (In Water)

[krishna_krishna]

INS Arighat, India’s Second Nuclear Ballistic Missile Submarine had a quiet launch away from the media limelight but India has already started groundwork to develop its next successor with the development of next-generation Ballistic Missile Submarine internally codenamed S5.

Unlike S4 and S4 * which are just an extended version of Arihant class, S5 SSBN will be a new design and will be nearly double the size of S4 SSBN when it is ready in another decade time.

S5 will have reported surface displacement of over 13500 tonnes which is about same as Triomphant class of ballistic missile submarines operated by the French Navy but still smaller then Ohio-class submarine operated by United States Navy.

From here (guys check out lot of good info):

http://idrw.org/s5-indias-next-generati ... ore-156633 .

[Akshay Kapoor]

Wonder if it will be from the Arihant or from the submerged pontoon

What's the point in testing from pontoon when two subs are already in the sea and the missile has already been pontoon tested.

Not my area of expertise but I wouldn’t ‘test’ a missiles from a top line operational sub unless it was fairly mature. What if something goes wrong and it damages or worse destroys the sub and precious lives. Now I don’t know what level of the dev cycle these missiles are in. But if they are indeed being tested from subs then it’s great news because that risk would only be taken if we were very sure of the missile.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Gagan, If I recall K-4 testing was supposed to be one more before being declared operational. So could be pontoon.

Edited : Ramana garu, chaiwala says its K4 from arihaant , another test for K5planned Q1 2018. Also Chaiwala says we have three boats in water right now.

Total guess work (Take it FWIW):

S1 Some TD submarine (I remember some chief claiming that third leg was under water alive and kicking during heat up with porkis in 2000's) (In Water)
S2 Arihant aka converted SSN (Arihant class multipurpose boat ) (In Water)
S3 Arighat (Arihant class multipurpose boat ) (Launched)
S4&S4* Unnamed ( My guess INS Aridaman, Aridaman Class true SSBN) (In Water)

Mahadev bless you for getting the name Aridaman right. I feel rather frustrated when people say Aridhaman. Shivji made a post about it some months or was it year ago - how internet distortaions propogate.

Re your chai walla any what does ‘in water’ mean. Launched , fitting out, sea trials or operational.

[krishna_krishna]

Re your chai walla any what does ‘in water’ mean. Launched , fitting out, sea trials or operational.

Sea trials/operational.

Regarding H its just local cultural thing, in some states in south pronounce things are translated to English like that for ex. Bharat in some places is written as Bharath. But sir I would not be judgmental of people based on that, I can see why it can be frustrating but if people begin to understand (especially in north) that it is a cultural thing and we are brethren's that will help in building a strong akhand Bharat.

I don't want to hijack the thread but just think of it as special dialects found across this great land and life would be less frustrating and more accepting.

[ramana]

Krishna^2 Thanks a lot. It clarifies the fog a lot.

[Akshay Kapoor]

Re your chai walla any what does ‘in water’ mean. Launched , fitting out, sea trials or operational.

Sea trials/operational.

Regarding H its just local cultural thing, in some states in south pronounce things are translated to English like that for ex. Bharat in some places is written as Bharath. But sir I would not be judgmental of people based on that, I can see why it can be frustrating but if people begin to understand (especially in north) that it is a cultural thing and we are brethren's that will help in building a strong akhand Bharat.

I don't want to hijack the thread but just think of it as special dialects found across this great land and life would be less frustrating and more accepting.

I think you misunderstood me but you and I think exactly the same my brother. Arindaman is a Sanskrit word and nowhere is Sanskrit more safe than in a village in Karnataka which speaks only in Sanskrit. You don’t know me but rest assured akhand bharat is as close to my heart as yours. And dakshin bharat is as much mine as yours.

[Vivek K]

Gagan, If I recall K-4 testing was supposed to be one more before being declared operational. So could be pontoon.

Edited : Ramana garu, chaiwala says its K4 from arihaant , another test for K5planned Q1 2018. Also Chaiwala says we have three boats in water right now.

Total guess work (Take it FWIW):

S1 Some TD submarine (I remember some chief claiming that third leg was under water alive and kicking during heat up with porkis in 2000's) (In Water)
S2 Arihant aka converted SSN (Arihant class multipurpose boat ) (In Water)
S3 Arighat (Arihant class multipurpose boat ) (Launched)
S4&S4* Unnamed ( My guess INS Aridaman, Aridaman Class true SSBN) (In Water)

Or it could be three Arihant class in the water. After all Arihant was complete in 2009 and there had been news that Aridaman was almost complete. So three could be in the water and the stretched version is being worked on.

[ramana]

Vivek K, Bingo.
1,2, & 3....

[Cybaru]

I ask again, is S1 really shore based?

[Rakesh]

I think you misunderstood me but you and I think exactly the same my brother. Arindaman is a Sanskrit word and nowhere is Sanskrit more safe than in a village in Karnataka which speaks only in Sanskrit. You don’t know me but rest assured akhand bharat is as close to my heart as yours. And dakshin bharat is as much mine as yours.

Amen to that!

[Gagan]

I suspect, any NEW missile will have a few Pontoon tests, before actual sub testing.
Once the clearance from the pontoon, clearing the sea surface and flight in the air is verified, they can then do the actual sub launch

So the SLBM are using two different mechanisms.
The larger K-4 has an gas generator with additional nozzles near its nose tip, which start at launch, underwater, and take the missile all the way to several Kms in altitude, where the main engine ignites and takes over.
The second mechanism is the one that is on the likes of Brahmos and Sagarika (B-05) use. Gas generator pushes missile out of the tube, while underwater, and the gas generator engine drops off as soon as the missile breaches the surface. The main engine now ignites

[Gagan]

I ask again, is S1 really shore based?

If it is in the water, it will be pretty difficult to hide it, and people would have known.

It has been nearly a decade since the Arihant Launch, so the 3 sub in the water report might be correct.
Once the Akula returns from Roos, there will be 4 N subs prowling the Bay of Bengal, the Indian ocean and the Arabian sea

[shiv]

Not my area of expertise but I wouldn’t ‘test’ a missiles from a top line operational sub unless it was fairly mature.

I was wondering about this and maybe ramana or someone could step in here aboutthe exact process of ejecting the missile underwater and the mechanism used to ignite the rocket motor only after it is clear.

Googling gives me this:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/militar ... submarine/

First, an explosive charge flash-vaporizes a tank of water into steam. As the pressure of the expanding steam drives the missile out of its launch tube, it provides enough momentum for the weapon to clear the water's surface. This cocktail of high pressure and dangerous explosives is a crucial phase of every launch. Multiple safety mechanisms are in place to deactivate the missile if it fails to get away from the sub.

[prasannasimha]

As I mentioned Aridaman ( and yes it is not wrong to write Aridhaman as a translation from Sanskrit as it is more correct lexically as it differentiates a hard d like in dick from soft d like in dhamini )was supposed to already be in the docks when the gate accident occurred.
I still feel Arighat launch was a warning wrt winter in Doklam and yes wrt Beijing many points in Bay of Bengal are less than ranges mentioned and we underreport ranges a lot.

[krishna_krishna]

[
Or it could be three Arihant class in the water. After all Arihant was complete in 2009 and there had been news that Aridaman was almost complete. So three could be in the water and the stretched version is being worked on.

Vivek K, Bingo.
1,2, & 3....

I had asked the same question and chaiwala pointed to this video : He said this is the closest thing to the reality availability in public domain (possibly cleared at highest level to signal whom we need to and probably reassure country on awesome hard work done by the folks in this area )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Cki_rpUJKI

Look at the diagram he shows.

I ask again, is S1 really shore based?

If it is in the water, it will be pretty difficult to hide it, and people would have known.

We started with limited range initially as maal was not ready (K series), An n tipped Clubs. But as you much are aware ATV was sanctioned in early eighties, the plan was different kind of boat (similar to Russian Charlie class). First learn to walk before you can run, here I must give credit to russkies who stood by us and given hoot to massa and co , made us have real /proven working missile to mate our maal given serious survival threats we faced in early 2000's and the first boats.

All I will say is this (This was in 20X2):

"""""Admiral Madhvendra Singh, who recently took over as the new Chief of Naval Staff, had at a Press conference declined to confirm or deny whether the Navy had nuclear weapons.

The Naval chief had said: "I can neither confirm nor deny the presence of nuclear weapons on warships. Any country that espouses the doctrine of no-first-use of nuclear weapons must have a second strike capability. And one of the triad is at sea... the most powerful leg of the triad is in the Navy and is hidden under water and moving."""""

[ramana]

Shiv, Gagan has described the Indian way of launching the underwater missiles. It is the nose tip rocket motor that pulls the missile up and then first stage ignites. The nose pull motor acts as a half stage.

[prasannasimha]

When I used the term nose pull here everyone laughed . Glad to see it is becoming the norm

[shiv]

Shiv, Gagan has described the Indian way of launching the underwater missiles. It is the nose tip rocket motor that pulls the missile up and then first stage ignites. The nose pull motor acts as a half stage.

There must be some mechanism to eject out of the sub canister no?

Another query - at what point does the nose tip motor kick in?
a) At the outset
b) underwater
c) in the air

[Singha]

does the Sineva SLBM use nose pull tractor? videos of its launches do not show the prominent solid fuel white smoke of our K4 launch.

does any other in-service SLBM use nose pull - I think the trident and M41 does not for sure. not having a 1m deep gas generator at bottom of the tube perhaps permits us to mount the longest possible missile inside the Arihant dimensions?

we already gas generate the 50t A5 out of its land tube so no hurdles there

[deejay]

Vivek K, Bingo.
1,2, & 3....

But why will I understate my Deterrence capability?

[Singha]

^^ to not raise hackles in EU capitals. there are sections in EU esp the non-nuclear busybodies like italy, spain, portugal, austria, germany who see themselves as peer powers to India and hold important votes in various multilateral bodies where we are trying to make our way to the front benches. NPA emirs and ayatollahs in EU-US have deep ties with such networks.

for now until we have a few SSBN and proper deployment of land based A5, we are keeping quiet. later we do have the option of slapping them crudely and laughing in their faces, but being dharmic and meek I doubt GOI will go so public in showing their impotence, more like a quiet private acceptance of the de-facto status.

[Karthik S]

Vivek K, Bingo.
1,2, & 3....

But why will I understate my Deterrence capability?

Honesty you can answer this sir, I've wondered the same, the very purpose of deterrence is that others will not pick up a fight with you in very simple terms, for this you need to show your deterrent strength and not be secretive or ambiguous about it.
But it seems we are still in need of some western tech in many areas because of which we are trying not to antagonize big power(s).

[prasannasimha]

does the Sineva SLBM use nose pull tractor? videos of its launches do not show the prominent solid fuel white smoke of our K4 launch.

does any other in-service SLBM use nose pull - I think the trident and M41 does not for sure. not having a 1m deep gas generator at bottom of the tube perhaps permits us to mount the longest possible missile inside the Arihant dimensions?

we already gas generate the 50t A5 out of its land tube so no hurdles there

Sineva has the nose pull with ejector basically push pull.

[Akshay Kapoor]

But why will I understate my Deterrence capability?

Honesty you can answer this sir, I've wondered the same, the very purpose of deterrence is that others will not pick up a fight with you in very simple terms, for this you need to show your deterrent strength and not be secretive or ambiguous about it.
But it seems we are still in need of some western tech in many areas because of which we are trying not to antagonize big power(s).

Perhaps we have solved the tech challenges but still not evolved doctrine and reconciled ourselves properly to being a nuclear power. It is one thing to get a brahmastra and another to know how to wield it most effectively. When even our generals use words like 'non state actors' and 'nuclear threshold' I worry.

[ramana]

Shiv, its a). Doing so takes care of many underwater launch problems like sea state, undersea crosscurrents which can tilt a unpowered vehicle.

Prasanna its also called front end motor.

[shiv]

Shiv, its a). Doing so takes care of many underwater launch problems like sea state, undersea crosscurrents which can tilt a unpowered vehicle.

Prasanna its also called front end motor.

To me this appears to be a very safe option with no explosive creation of high pressure gas behind the missile. That means they might even test/may have tested from the sub itself

[prasannasimha]

K4 was already launched once from Arihant as per some reports and these would be tests with SFC