Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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prasannasimha
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 20 Aug 2018 21:02

We have ELF facility. Please look up INS Kattabomman

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Vips » 21 Aug 2018 01:17

Anti-runway and anti-tank missiles tested successfully: Defence Ministry.

The defence ministry on Sunday announced the success of two major new weapon systems developed by the Defence R&D Organisation (DRDO). One is a precision-guided bomb, launched from fighter aircraft to incapacitate enemy air bases up to 100 km away. The second is an anti-tank missile, fired from helicopters to destroy enemy tanks as far as 7 km away.

The indigenously designed and developed guided bombs — named the Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW) — was launched from Indian Air Force (IAF) fighters at Chandan range, in Rajasthan. The ministry stated, “The weapon system was integrated with live warhead and has destroyed the targets with high precision.”

The SAAW is an accurate bomb and is termed a precision-guided munition (PGM). After its release from an aircraft, a sophisticated “inertial navigation system” on the bomb guides it precisely to its target — typically an enemy airfield up to 100 km away.

Striking the airfield’s runway precisely with one bomb is more economical than using traditional free-fall bombs, which are less accurate and must therefore be released in large numbers to be assured of incapacitating the target airfield.

Another advantage of SAAW is that, after releasing it at a distance from the enemy airbase, the aircraft can return without exposing itself to anti-aircraft defences surrounding most air bases.

“Three tests with different release conditions were conducted from August 16-18 and all mission objectives have been achieved,” said the defence ministry. These were the eighth round of developmental trials SAAW has undergone. It is now regarded as ready for induction into the IAF’s arsenal. Separately on Sunday afternoon, in “summer trials” in the blazing hot Pokhran Range, an indigenous Dhruv helicopter launched a HELINA anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) at a tank target seven kilometres away, successfully striking and destroying it.

HELINA is the acronym for “helicopter launched Nag” missile, a heavier and longer-range version of the vehicle mounted Nag missile with a 4-km range.

The missile is locked onto its target through a telescopic sight just before it is fired. After it is airborne and is flying towards its target at 200 metres per second, it is guided by an “infrared imaging seeker”, that homes in on the target’s heat signature.
Last edited by ramana on 21 Aug 2018 02:32, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added highlights ramana

sum
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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sum » 21 Aug 2018 05:00

prasannasimha wrote:We have ELF facility. Please look up INS Kattabomman

Wasnt there news of another one coming up in parallel with the N-sub base near Vizag?
Wonder what its status is ( if i remember the news correctly)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rishirishi » 21 Aug 2018 05:49

SaiK wrote:zero sum game now! the triad realization point - mark the dates.


But the K4 only has range of 3500 km. cant reach all of China. The warhead is also in question. It is not tested.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 21 Aug 2018 05:57

UlanBatori wrote:Chinese facilities on the Moon: how are we going to deter those?

According to a dude who went to the moon, there's a lot more than just Chinese bases on the moon..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby PratikDas » 21 Aug 2018 06:21

Rishirishi wrote:
SaiK wrote:zero sum game now! the triad realization point - mark the dates.


But the K4 only has range of 3500 km. cant reach all of China. The warhead is also in question. It is not tested.

This is Wikipedia's reference for the K-4 warhead: http://rusnavy.com/news/othernavies/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=11204&print=Y

The missile can carry 2.5 tons, which is only 1 ton more than what the Agni V carries. The missile is 1.3 m wide, which is also the width of the Agni II.

Why do you say the warhead is untested?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SaiK » 21 Aug 2018 07:50

++ we need to have like buttons in BRF.

And imagine a 1-ton warhead mapped to TNT equivalent. [hopefully thermos] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapon_yield
----------------------

RE: 200 mtrs/sec, HELINA if provided with stealth skins, then victory is ours. Chipakanda combined come with as many al khalids and t85s, we need dedicated helos just can fire nearly dozen (special platform on LCH) HELINAs at one go from couple of racks - equally capable multi target acquisition radar is needed - AESA 2052 is ideal as it track 64 ground targets in one scan [UTTAM's core specs should baseline on this].

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Trikaal » 21 Aug 2018 11:30

^I might be wrong on this, but aren't 2052 and uttam both fighter based radars? Heli radars are usually very different from Fighter radars (can handle more clutter, always in a2g mode, less processing power requirements, etc).

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 21 Aug 2018 12:03

PratikDas wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:
But the K4 only has range of 3500 km. cant reach all of China. The warhead is also in question. It is not tested.

This is Wikipedia's reference for the K-4 warhead: http://rusnavy.com/news/othernavies/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=11204&print=Y

The missile can carry 2.5 tons, which is only 1 ton more than what the Agni V carries. The missile is 1.3 m wide, which is also the width of the Agni II.

Why do you say the warhead is untested?

There have been enough indicators to show that K4 has been tested a few times already. It is a pity that I lost the tender for transportation of K4.

I think it was 12 mtrs long and 2 mtrs wide.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SaiK » 21 Aug 2018 12:10

actually speaking helos need more a2g than fighters, because general orbat is not to pit a helo against a fighter. apache long bow is an FCR. apg/78. the intention to have a dedicated platform is just to satisfy that(wish btw). but then, who knows what is the actual config going to be.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 21 Aug 2018 12:22

Regarding the helina test at full range. Do we know which seeker was used. As previous reports had suggested that the seeker was range limited to a range of 3.2 KMS during the peak of summer between 10 am to 3 pm. Or thereabouts.

Was the same seeker was used for this test.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby uddu » 21 Aug 2018 12:53

Pratyush wrote:Regarding the helina test at full range. Do we know which seeker was used. As previous reports had suggested that the seeker was range limited to a range of 3.2 KMS during the peak of summer between 10 am to 3 pm. Or thereabouts.

Was the same seeker was used for this test.


That was a Nag issue. Sorted out with Indigenous seeker and successfully tested multiple times to max range of 5km during the summer trials.

300 Nag anti-tank missiles to be inducted in Indian Army soon
https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-04-22

"A high-level meeting of the defence ministry will consider a proposal to acquire 300 Nag missiles and around 25 Nag Missile Carriers (NAMICA) worth around Rs 500 crore for induction into the Indian Army in the next few days," government sources told Mail Today.

The major success in the Nag programme was achieved after the DRDO missile complex developed the indigenous seeker for the Nag missile, which helped it in hitting targets successfully.

"The earlier seeker used in the missile could not differentiate between the tank and its surrounding desert sand as the temperature difference between the two was almost negligible during the summer season. However, the indigenous seeker has the capability to differentiate between the two and has consistently hit targets during the trials in the last two years," the sources said.

"The fire-and-forget Nag missile with the indigenous seeker can successfully target enemy tanks even in the worst desert conditions during summer with great accuracy," the sources said. :D

The seekers imported from a European country were developed as per the weather conditions there and were not able to adapt to the extreme weather conditions in the desert terrain in India. :rotfl:

The latest test is of Helina or Helicopter launched Nag. It seems the 5km test or the expected maximum range is already met at 5km and they are now going to test it for 7km range. Most probably the test is with Indigenous seeker.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 467952.cms

The missile is one of the most advanced anti-tank weapons in the world. Senior officials from DRDO and Army were present during the mission. An army official told TOI, "This is path-breaking. :D Today, we were able to hit the target which was 5km away. We are next going to try 7km. This is the first time that it has been done in the country. It's extremely efficient in combat situations."

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby manjgu » 21 Aug 2018 13:03

this is v good...though the campaign season is in winters and its v doubtful we will ever go to war in summers ( when seekers have more problems)... ofc more the range the merrier it is !!

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby uddu » 21 Aug 2018 13:11

No more a problem with indigenous seekers. That issue is sorted forever. So we can go to war in Summer, Winter or whenever we feel like.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 21 Aug 2018 13:55

well well so much for the vaunted Sofradir seekers.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 21 Aug 2018 14:16

The only criticism now is the small order quantity. We need thousands. Not just 100s.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 21 Aug 2018 15:28

Now that we have an IIR seeker which can diffrentiate tanks from sand at 5Km, how difficult would it be to get SAM and AAM with Astra body and ingenious IIR seeker?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 21 Aug 2018 18:46

This is lungi dance time.

Earlier, the max ranges of Helina were 4 km and 7km in LOAL and LOBL modes respectively.

And everything developed on Helina becomes automatically available for SANT and SAAW missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 21 Aug 2018 19:50

Pratyush wrote:The only criticism now is the small order quantity. We need thousands. Not just 100s.
could it be available initial order?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SaiK » 21 Aug 2018 20:22

The clue to know if it is mmw, check for the news of HELINA doing LOAL mode.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SaiK » 21 Aug 2018 20:25

Indranil wrote:This is lungi dance time.

Earlier, the max ranges of Helina were 4 km and 7km in LOAL and LOBL modes respectively.

And everything developed on Helina becomes automatically available for SANT and SAAW missiles.


pooch: did you switch the "respectively" modes? I am trying to narrow/understand LOBL - 4 km, and LOAL - 7 km.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 21 Aug 2018 20:55

Pratyush wrote:The only criticism now is the small order quantity. We need thousands. Not just 100s.



Don't start that whine fest.

Look at how many tanks the challengers have? And look at how many different anti tank missiles are being bought?
Konkurs, Milan, Javelin etc.
Its in thousands.
NAG is truly one shot one tank.

And realize the 300 Nag + 25 NAMICA will be the Low rate production at the factory.

More than the NAG I would like to see the HELINA start production but it wont unless NAG is production qualified.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 21 Aug 2018 20:58

Aditya_V wrote:Now that we have an IIR seeker which can differentiate tanks from sand at 5Km, how difficult would it be to get SAM and AAM with Astra body and ingenious IIR seeker?



I think the Akash-1S already has this IIR seeker.

I would like a shortened ASTRA motor with this IIR seeker for R-73 replacement.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 22 Aug 2018 00:30

SaiK wrote:
Indranil wrote:This is lungi dance time.

Earlier, the max ranges of Helina were 4 km and 7km in LOAL and LOBL modes respectively.

And everything developed on Helina becomes automatically available for SANT and SAAW missiles.


pooch: did you switch the "respectively" modes? I am trying to narrow/understand LOBL - 4 km, and LOAL - 7 km.

Nope, you got it right. Thanks for the correction.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rishi_Tri » 22 Aug 2018 02:35

Indranil wrote:
SaiK wrote:
pooch: did you switch the "respectively" modes? I am trying to narrow/understand LOBL - 4 km, and LOAL - 7 km.

Nope, you got it right. Thanks for the correction.


Wasn't the original range 5km and 8km respectively?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby PratikDas » 22 Aug 2018 04:39

Rishi_Tri wrote:
Indranil wrote:Nope, you got it right. Thanks for the correction.


Wasn't the original range 5km and 8km respectively?

No
https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/army-opts-for-nag-missile-as-it-enters-final-trials-110030800067_1.html
https://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/English/DRDO-a-glimpse-ebook.pdf
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 22 Aug 2018 10:16

ArjunPandit wrote:
Pratyush wrote:The only criticism now is the small order quantity. We need thousands. Not just 100s.
could it be available initial order?



I have been hearing about 400 odd missiles ordered for at least 15 years. But no diliveries.

That's why I have called it a small order.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 22 Aug 2018 10:25

Why not use helina for the land based launcher also? I would think that lock on after launch is useful in this case too.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 22 Aug 2018 11:07

^^actually the total run should be in the range of 1000s as we will have close to 200: 114 for IA and 65 for IAF, with potential for more of course. Even assuming 10 for each (very simplistic) over a horizon of multiple decades is nothing. Is there anything that is still not upto IA's requirements?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rishi_Tri » 24 Aug 2018 00:57

https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/india-s ... d-missile/

(The Helina’s range is estimated at between 7 to 8 kilometers.) Almost every article on this test mentions range to be upto 8 km.

Above also has reference to LCH IOC.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SSridhar » 24 Aug 2018 08:40

Rishi_Tri wrote:https://thediplomat.com/2018/08/india-successfully-tests-indigenous-air-launched-anti-tank-guided-missile/

(The Helina’s range is estimated at between 7 to 8 kilometers.) Almost every article on this test mentions range to be upto 8 km.

Above also has reference to LCH IOC.

The very first test of HELINA, it crossed 7 Kms. It was always touted to be 8Km range. The declared intention is to raise it to 20 Kms.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 24 Aug 2018 09:57

20km is Sant’s range which is based on Helina.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby SSridhar » 24 Aug 2018 14:37

Indranil wrote:20km is Sant’s range which is based on Helina.

Exactly and some successful test of SANT has also taken place already.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 24 Aug 2018 18:32

Sounds like sant will be our brimstone missile for fixed wing fastjets

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 24 Aug 2018 19:47

Speaking of Brimstone how does Brimstone 2 achieve 40+ km range from Ah-64? Can we expect something similar down the road with SANT.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 24 Aug 2018 22:37

very unlikely and no clear data on tests from apache and range achieved.
https://www.janes.com/article/78861/mbd ... rimstone-3

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Picklu » 24 Aug 2018 23:57

1. The indigenous seeker still uses sofradir FPA IIRC. Hope Tonbo scales up, but till then we are still dependent on highly expensive and supply controlled critical component.
2. ATGM IIR and A2A IIR uses different kind as uses different IR wavelength. So getting 1 right does not automatically gets us the other.
3. I simply do not see the use case of 20 km ATGM, forget 40 KM. God knows how are we/anyone going to target!! If bulk targeting that far is possible, why not anti tank cluster warhead? Why individual large motors? The only use case I can think of would be marine/naval however the target type has to change from tank to boat

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 25 Aug 2018 02:37

Picklu wrote:1. The indigenous seeker still uses sofradir FPA IIRC. Hope Tonbo scales up, but till then we are still dependent on highly expensive and supply controlled critical component.

Are you sure of this? I read somewhere that the Sofradir FPA did not work and the recent success is by using indigenous FPAs.

Picklu wrote:3. I simply do not see the use case of 20 km ATGM, forget 40 KM. God knows how are we/anyone going to target!! If bulk targeting that far is possible, why not anti tank cluster warhead? Why individual large motors? The only use case I can think of would be marine/naval however the target type has to change from tank to boat

My question too. The Brimstones are supposed to be usable against moving soft targets as well. So I am guessing that they will be initially GPS/inertially guided followed by laser illumination.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 25 Aug 2018 04:09

FPA is from Sofradir. The only real local FPA capable of being used in current gen TI products is from an IIT project but has yet to be mass manufactured or ordered, and is more suitable for conventional NV optics.

Tonbo et al dont do FPAs, they license assemble commercially available electronics and FPAs with their secret sauce image processing and combine that with their own precision manufactured optics (though even some of that may be imported from Zeiss et al)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 25 Aug 2018 04:10

Picklu wrote:3. I simply do not see the use case of 20 km ATGM, forget 40 KM. God knows how are we/anyone going to target!! If bulk targeting that far is possible, why not anti tank cluster warhead? Why individual large motors? The only use case I can think of would be marine/naval however the target type has to change from tank to boat


Use case is to stay out of MANPAD and SHORADS envelope. Preserve the platform. Long range targeting via the fighter radar or Litening.


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