Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 30 Aug 2018 06:21

So the upcoming 2+2 meeting is expected to include discussions on the Tomahawk cruise missile....

2+2 to establish India as major defence partner of United States
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 570031.cms

Discussions are also expected on the Tomahawk cruise missile that can be used from ships and submarines against surface targets.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby RoyG » 30 Aug 2018 06:51

Rakesh wrote:So the upcoming 2+2 meeting is expected to include discussions on the Tomahawk cruise missile....

2+2 to establish India as major defence partner of United States
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 570031.cms

Discussions are also expected on the Tomahawk cruise missile that can be used from ships and submarines against surface targets.


They want to turn us into England lol.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 30 Aug 2018 07:02

I think Putin wants India to have that Kaliber missile
hence Th on offer.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karthik S » 30 Aug 2018 07:52

Most likely they want to kill the nirbhay program, hence the TH offer.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 30 Aug 2018 08:42

Tomahawk is not just another legacy system, till now US has sold it to only UK, its quite a significant development if they are really offering it to us. Or it could mean Trump is easing export controls (note the euros have already sold air launched cruise missiles to a bunch of countries)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby tsarkar » 30 Aug 2018 10:55

Karan M wrote:
John wrote:It will likely be Vl-MICA.
All depends on whether Make in India or Made in India for the 10 units. If Indian design and developed then wont be the Mica. If its merely to be assembled here.. err.. made here, then VL Mica it could be for the whole deal.

Similar template as LRSAM/MRSAM. VL MICA with some DRDO developed components for the next 10 systems. Outright buy of 4 systems for Project 15B. 10 additional systems for 7 Project 17A and 3 Type 15A Kolkata class retrofit. With a large number of ongoing projects, DRDO didnt have the manpower or bandwidth to work on a new naval SRSAM system. Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri - a DRDO person - OK-ed the procurement.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 30 Aug 2018 11:56

Regarding tomohawk, thanks but no thanks.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby sum » 30 Aug 2018 12:04

^^ Whatever happened to the Nirbhay?
went into the usual quiet mode after a previous success and promise of more tests to shortly come ( almost a year back?)

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Aug 2018 12:47

Pratyush wrote:Regarding tomohawk, thanks but no thanks.

If we are up for Tomahawk why not kalabir? would also work on our submarines of russian vintage too

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Aug 2018 12:54

ArjunPandit wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Regarding tomohawk, thanks but no thanks.

If we are up for Tomahawk why not kalabir? would also work on our submarines of russian vintage too


Because you will make Admiral Filipov very excited....He is a high "kalabir" individual when Ru equiment is concerned..

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby RKumar » 30 Aug 2018 13:49

lol ... USA is thinking to make us junkyard with offering/forcing us to buy obsolete systems. It will be much better if USA offers armed drones plus good army rifles along with automation machinery for the same.

Very basic stuff where we did not put enough efforts. Leaving aside expensive high tech stuff.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Aug 2018 13:54

^^The purpose is not to excite comrade Phillip, but to do a quom-raid on Muridke and Clifton on a shubh din. If he gets excited with it I don't mind.

That said i would still not mind purchasing a token order of Tomahawk. It is a system that has been developed, tested for quite some time now and has been combat proven, even more than Kalabir. Obviously we should not expect it to work west of Himalayas.
Sadly, even after so many years, Nirbhay seems nowhere in sight for induction.

All said and done we can't match the experience and production delivery precision of Khan.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Aug 2018 13:57

The only reason Tomohawk is on offer is that Nirbhay tech is maturing, from Partiot Offer just before Akash orders we have seen this circus. The manik engine is also now going into production.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 30 Aug 2018 13:58

RKumar wrote:lol ... USA is thinking to make us junkyard with offering/forcing us to buy obsolete systems. It will be much better if USA offers armed drones plus good army rifles along with automation machinery for the same.

Very basic stuff where we did not put enough efforts. Leaving aside expensive high tech stuff.

I would say that this junkyard stuff is not junk. This is work horse even for Khan. Do they possess anything better than T'hawk. Obviuosly version etc will be important. Khan will extract their price for all the things they have done like "Wassenar" support etc.
Even if Nirbhay is maturing, there will be sometime before it reaches the desired level of maturity and reliability.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 30 Aug 2018 14:19

We have our GPS, we have seen in the past with the Patriot and Javelin, even if it takes time for items like CM's we need our domestic ones as thats the only way we deliver in numbers, Tomohawk will mean taking funds out of Nirbhay and having 60 Cm's attacking limited targets with the target name marked on each missile. Hardly useful in a conflict, we need numbers which only a domestic CM can provide.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prasad » 30 Aug 2018 14:46

Fu(king up Nirbhay would mean, the engine program will also likely be shut down. Food for thought.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 30 Aug 2018 15:44

thats the whole idea brother.

engines or the lack thereof is the jaguar vein of india.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 30 Aug 2018 22:06

Nirbhay was extended till June 30th i have not heard anything about another extension so i am not sure it has been put in the back burner. Given the slow phase of program just meager 5 tests over 5 years, cannot fault them for looking at alternatives.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 30 Aug 2018 23:56

We had a successful last test. Must be waiting for the local engine before another test happens. Given the tomahawk talk, now it is confirmed we are making progress.

And why are outraging over a rumor. US will not sell tomahawks to anyone other than UK. It will be violation of MTCR and doing it will open up Russia selling their CM to every tom, dick & Iranians.

More over tomahawk need the famous "scene co-relation" thingi... obviously it will not co-relate google maps. Do people think Khan will give us the data during any punch up with our western neighbor?

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby pravula » 31 Aug 2018 07:29

nam wrote:We had a successful last test. Must be waiting for the local engine before another test happens. Given the tomahawk talk, now it is confirmed we are making progress.

And why are outraging over a rumor. US will not sell tomahawks to anyone other than UK. It will be violation of MTCR and doing it will open up Russia selling their CM to every tom, dick & Iranians.

More over tomahawk need the famous "scene co-relation" thingi... obviously it will not co-relate google maps. Do people think Khan will give us the data during any punch up with our western neighbor?


India is now a MTCR member. No violation.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 31 Aug 2018 08:25

US had promised to sell tomahawks for the spanish F100 bazan class DDGs but did not happen i think.
the widely deployed mk41 vls in its strike length variant can fire the thawk...so australia, germany, denmark anyone who uses that vls can in theory buy it. UK has it on submarines but not type45.

the franco italian sylver a70 model vls can fire the naval scalp. after some keystone cop type errors they did manage to fire a few toward syria in the last round.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby mody » 31 Aug 2018 14:58

tsarkar wrote:
Karan M wrote:All depends on whether Make in India or Made in India for the 10 units. If Indian design and developed then wont be the Mica. If its merely to be assembled here.. err.. made here, then VL Mica it could be for the whole deal.

Similar template as LRSAM/MRSAM. VL MICA with some DRDO developed components for the next 10 systems. Outright buy of 4 systems for Project 15B. 10 additional systems for 7 Project 17A and 3 Type 15A Kolkata class retrofit. With a large number of ongoing projects, DRDO didnt have the manpower or bandwidth to work on a new naval SRSAM system. Scientific Advisor to Raksha Mantri - a DRDO person - OK-ed the procurement.


This would assume that either the VL-Mica is superior in performance to the Barak-1 or cheaper then Barak-1. The Mica missile on its own is not cheap, so the second part would be doubtful.
I have not seen any news of the Navy conducting any tests of the VL-Mica.

Would have loved to see a naval version of the QRSAM being developed for the IA and IAF, entering service with the Navy. Even the P28 corvettes and any new missile corvettes could also been armed with upto 16 of these for self defense.

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Re: Indian Missiles News and Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 31 Aug 2018 15:53

pravula wrote:India is now a MTCR member. No violation.


MTCR is not a technology sharing treaty, it is a denial regime.

It is a group of countries who voluntarily agree not to sell missile above 300km to anyone.

This is why even Yakhnot is technically not sold to us. It is a joint venture of a missile named "Brahmos" under 300km and India "upgraded" it to 450. Russia did not sell us 450KM Brahmos ( they don't have any missile called Brahmos), there by not breaking the treaty.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Trikaal » 31 Aug 2018 17:36

^MTCR is focussed on 'limiting' the proliferation of missile technology. It means that the members can sell missile tech above certain limitations only to other members. Since India is a member now, selling Tomahawk tech to India is not a violation of MTCR.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 31 Aug 2018 19:03

nam wrote:MTCR is not a technology sharing treaty, it is a denial regime.

It is a group of countries who voluntarily agree not to sell missile above 300km to anyone.

This is why even Yakhnot is technically not sold to us. It is a joint venture of a missile named "Brahmos" under 300km and India "upgraded" it to 450. Russia did not sell us 450KM Brahmos ( they don't have any missile called Brahmos), there by not breaking the treaty.


That information is highly incorrect, Yakhont is export version of Oniks and the range was always capped at 300 km to meet MTCR ( same with Klub and improved Moskit missile). In late 90s it was stuck in development purgatory due to lack of funding and Russian navy had no interest in Oniks since they were content with Uran and Moskit, however we simply didnt want to purchase a export AshM. We "wanted" to fund a new missile that is tweaked to meet India's requirement and technology from this can be applied to other missile programmes (for example the cold launch tech and canisterization). Hence Brahmos which was based on Oniks not Yakhont was choosen for this joint venture and similar cap of 300 km on the range was put in place. But i believe it was simply a limitation done on the software side (not sure if Yakhont 300 km limit is software or hardware based).

As for Yakhont somehow it managed to get $$ (strong hints that it was china) and it has been offered for export and now competes with Brahmos in export market. Since latter is cheaper and Russia has no problem selling to countries like Syria while Brahmos requires Russia and Indian approval it is winning out in export market.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 31 Aug 2018 22:49

John wrote:That information is highly incorrect, Yakhont is export version of Oniks


I may have got the version incorrect, however the joint development company was one way to get around MTCR, because we wanted the tech as well. The range is software limited, by restricting the height it can fly. The russians did not built a custom short ranged missile for us. They gave us the whole thing along with the tech, there by technically breaking the treaty.

Now when we made it 450km, Russian can say Indians learnt to built their Brahmos software, we haven't given them anything special. We just gave them 290km tech!

The same development facade is used by the Chinese "selling" Babur to the Paks.
Last edited by nam on 31 Aug 2018 22:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 31 Aug 2018 22:51

Trikaal wrote:^MTCR is focussed on 'limiting' the proliferation of missile technology. It means that the members can sell missile tech above certain limitations only to other members. Since India is a member now, selling Tomahawk tech to India is not a violation of MTCR.


If the members can share, China would have been the first to join and get atleast european tech.

Probably get the Paks in as well.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Trikaal » 31 Aug 2018 22:55

China has tried in the past to get in. The other members didn't allow because of china's sketchy record regarding proliferation. Without china, there is no question of pak getting in.

The facade of joint development with pak was done because china has given verbal assurance that they will abide by the regulations of MTCR(upto 1987 i think). So selling missile to pak would have made it very difficult for china to gain entry into MTCR in future.

Also, sharing is upto members. If european countries don't want to sell tech to china, getting inside MTCR will do jack all for china.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 31 Aug 2018 23:02

Do we have an example of a tech transfer between countries within MTCR (non-NATO) which violates such restriction? I would be happy to be corrected.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Trikaal » 31 Aug 2018 23:29

^Tomahawk is a good example of US giving UK a missile that violates MTCR guidelines. MTCR is invoked only for tech denial since it does not facilitate tech sharing. However, if a member wants to sell tech to a non-member, they have to check it with MTCR first. That was how Russia was stopped from selling cryogenic engine tech to India in the 90's.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 31 Aug 2018 23:42

Trikaal wrote:^Tomahawk is a good example of US giving UK a missile that violates MTCR guidelines. MTCR is invoked only for tech denial since it does not facilitate tech sharing. However, if a member wants to sell tech to a non-member, they have to check it with MTCR first. That was how Russia was stopped from selling cryogenic engine tech to India in the 90's.


That is a specific deal and they are NATO countries. Even the Trident sharing was part of some of these treaty.

I was looking for deal between MTCR countries, who are not NATO. Even between US & Australia?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby kit » 31 Aug 2018 23:58

I think India will buy a token number of Tomahawks just like the hellfires !!.. not to mention it is becoming a veritable kichdi of east west north(finland) and south (korea)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby brar_w » 01 Sep 2018 00:07

nam wrote:Do we have an example of a tech transfer between countries within MTCR (non-NATO) which violates such restriction? I would be happy to be corrected.


European missiles sold to South Korea is an oft-cited example. Another example could be US JASSM sale to Australia.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby SSridhar » 01 Sep 2018 07:54

BrahMos chief lauds Godrej on delivery of airframe - Business Line
Godrej Aerospace on Friday handed over the first of the 100 orders for the airframes for the air-launched version of the BrahMos missile systems to Defence Research Development Laboratories.

Sudhir Mishra, Distinguished Scientist and Director General (BrahMos), DRDO, and MD & CEO, BrahMos Aerospace, feels the achievement is bigger than being able to make even the most advanced weapon systems in the world.

Godrej has already started working on missile boosters for the BrahMoS, and BrahMoS Aerospace has already given it a development order to make the boosters in India. Indian boosters will also start coming within a year, Godrej said. The booster is another major subsystem similar to fuel management.

“The manufacturing of this fuel management system is much more complicated than the development and manufacturing of any weapon or aero-system in the world,” Mishra told BusinessLine in an interview.

The airframe also acts as a fuel management system, responsible for managing the liquid propellent and controlled flow combustion of fuel to fire the missile towards its target.

“Today, if there is one company that can manufacture an aerospace engine, it is just Godrej because they have the experience of making this fuel management system,” Mishra added.


In December 2017, Godrej Aerospace had won an order for 100 sets of airframe assemblies for the air-launched version. Godrej has already supplied 100 sets of the land version of the missile to BrahMos Aerospace.

Working with DRDO on the BrahMos missile has helped Godrej Aerospace turn profitable after nearly 20 years of operations. Godrej is also helping BrahMos Aerospace achieve indigenisation levels of 85 per cent.

“This fuel management system comprises more than 2,500 different materials. All these materials are indigenously developed and sourced. The company (Godrej) created a manufacturing ecosystem which can develop defence equipment,” Mishra said.


The division is profitable because it does a variety of things including exports, said Jamshyd Godrej, Chairman and MD of Godrej & Boyce, the parent of Godrej Aerospace. “It has been 20 years of investment. It was certainly not profitable from day one, but currently it is. The aerospace division works on both the defence side and the space side. And all this together has helped us turn profitable.”

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Philip » 01 Sep 2018 08:21

Kalibir has been offered it appears as part of z package for ghe 750t+ corvette requirement of the IN.Ru corvettes armed with Kalibir carried out crippling attacks on Syrian rrbels firing thd missiles from ax far away as the Caspian Sea.

The Russians have also given us the green light for range extension of BMos, the most successful JV deal of all thus far.The carrot of Tomahawk id as Kartik said, not just zn attempt to sell us an old LRCM, but to bury Nirbhay.
We already have a veritable supermarket of anti- ship missiles in our inventory , inferior Exocets, Harpoons earliet Sea Eagles to their Russian rivals esp. BMos ( JV), and Klub in particular. These having Mach 3+ speeds with a, terminal warhead in the case of Klub, unlikd the subsonic western ones , similar to our Ru Urans which we now wanh to replace. Inclined quad- pack BMos launchers have been now developed to replace Uran quad packs abour our warships.

There will be some in the IN, pro- Uncle Sam, who would love to lay their hands on the Tommys for the novelty of adding to the IN's collection !

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 01 Sep 2018 08:35

nam wrote:
John wrote:That information is highly incorrect, Yakhont is export version of Oniks


I may have got the version incorrect, however the joint development company was one way to get around MTCR, because we wanted the tech as well. The range is software limited, by restricting the height it can fly. The russians did not built a custom short ranged missile for us. They gave us the whole thing along with the tech, there by technically breaking the treaty.

Now when we made it 450km, Russian can say Indians learnt to built their Brahmos software, we haven't given them anything special. We just gave them 290km tech!

The same development facade is used by the Chinese "selling" Babur to the Paks.

Sure fair enough, Brahmos achieves additional range over 300 km by not flying higher. Ramjet efficiency drops significantly over 15km but by altering/reducing it's terminal phase ( this however does make the missile easier to detect and shoot down).


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 08 Sep 2018 07:12

So we have our prithvi replacement as a conventional tactical precision strike missile

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby pankajs » 08 Sep 2018 23:02

https://thediplomat.com/2018/09/indian- ... r-systems/
Indian Navy to Receive 7 Additional Long-Range Surface-to-Air Systems
The company has entered into contracts worth about Rs 9,200 crore with Mazagon Dock Limited (MDL) and Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) to supply LRSAM systems,” BEL said in a September 5 statement. “This is the highest-ever single value order bagged by BEL.” The LRSAM systems will be installed aboard seven surface warfare ships of the Indian Navy.

9,200 / 7 ~= 1,300 cr per ship.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 08 Sep 2018 23:27

My personal imagination running wild is to have a 2-3 ton payload 200/300/500KM BM. Create a cluster /IRV of 250KG/500KG.

Instead of firing multiple BM/CM, you fire one and the conventional Multiple Independent Vehicle hits different targets.

One missile could crater the whole runway at an airbase. I always wondered why no one tried creating a "MIRV" version of conventional BM.


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