Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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nam
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 08 Oct 2018 01:27

vinod wrote:Can we not create a dummy S-400 which sort of looks and quacks like it but just sends out signals mocking S-400?


You mean a S band Phased array?

There are two things in S400. Radar and SAM.

Which one do you want to replicate?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby mody » 08 Oct 2018 15:18

We are going to get 5 squadrons, comprising of 10 firing units.
This is crucial. We will potentially have 10 deployed units and not just 5. We can even have 4 for the eastern border and 6 units for the western.
China has purchased 6 batteries of the S400 system. Don't know if a battery and firing unit are the same or not.
Maybe someone else can clarify.

However, one thing is for sure, there will be more then 5 sites where the S400 will be deployed.
Our Air defence network will have the following components, within the next 3-4 years:

1). Spyder + QRSAM for mobile air defence and last resort defence against planes and cruise missiles. Range upto 20 Kms
2). Akash MK-1 and MK-1S as short to medium range SAMs, primarily for fixed deployment for defending defence installations, like air bases etc. Range max 35 Kms for MK1S. Effective against planes and cruise missiles.
3). MRSAM/Barak-8 as a medium SAM, for fixed deployment for defending defence installations and high value assets. Hopefully in the future, we will get a Akash-MK2 to supplement the Barak-8. Range upto 70 Kms. Effective against planes and cruise missiles.
4). LRSAM/Barak-8-ER. Essentially Barak-8 with a solid rocket booster to enhance range upto 120 Kms. Will be used primarily for targets in the range of 30-120 Kms. Effective against planes and limited capability against SRBM and MRBMs.
5). S400 - LRSAM and Anti Ballistic missile system for SRBM and MRBM systems. Range max upto 400 Kms.
6). 2-Tier BMD consisting of AAD/PDV missiles for taking care of SRBM, MRBM and IRBM upto 2,000 Km range missiles.
Last edited by mody on 08 Oct 2018 17:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby suryag » 08 Oct 2018 15:58

vinod wrote:Can we not create a dummy S-400 which sort of looks and quacks like it but just sends out signals mocking S-400?

Easy solution is to buy the dummies from PRC :) HQ-whatever

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby mody » 08 Oct 2018 17:59

News report claiming leak of Brahmos capability by DRDO employee to paki agents. Don't know how serious it is.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 08 Oct 2018 19:02

mody wrote:News report claiming leak of Brahmos capability by DRDO employee to paki agents. Don't know how serious it is.



viewtopic.php?p=2298961#p2298961

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kanson » 08 Oct 2018 20:04

pankajs wrote:
Kanson wrote:
I see in this line of discussion many tall figures of this forum too have subscribed to this view.

So in this i'm deeply befuddled if not squarely to see officials who are/ were holding responsible position make statements that all Agni missiles can carry conventional warhead, even the latest Agni missile. And stumbled to see SFC that is supposed wage N war w Agni missiles echoes the same.

So, what you guys are missing?

I would be very interested to read more on SFC's view on the matter. They are after all the folks controlling the arsenal. Would welcome any link.

Sad i missed this for timely reply...anyway, i broached on this many times here and there are links in public domain. But a straight quote i can link here is from 2011 interview by ex SFC commander.

viewtopic.php?p=1158828#p1158828

http://www.asianage.com/interview-week/ ... t-back-484

Air Marshal T. M. Asthana (retd), a fighter pilot, was the first Commander-in-Chief of India’s Strategic Forces Command which operationalises the country’s nuclear arsenal. He tells Anand K. Sahay that if India faces a nuclear hit from terrorists in Pakistan — which he considers unlikely — it can retaliate with nuclear or conventional forces, and possesses the capability for a surgical strike.


And there are other discussions..where the use of conventional options were deliberated. Not without reason every Agni missile including latest Agni 5 is reported to carry both conventional & N payloads.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kanson » 08 Oct 2018 20:16

ramana wrote:kanson, The Astra has a directional warhead and these very pages have cross section pictures of that.

Ramana hi...very much..just tells how much guidance & missile tech improved.
Astra speed is given as 1.2 to 1.4 mach.
DW can make a barely supersonic missile into high supersonic or hypersonic at terminal end. Wonder how it is going to change the Pk.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby dinesha » 08 Oct 2018 20:24

DRDO employee held for leaking BrahMos missile secrets to Pakistan
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/d ... 2018-10-08

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kanson » 08 Oct 2018 20:40

Ravi Karumanchiri wrote:
No, I’m sorry, you’ve misunderstood me, then.

I am familiar with directional warheads, and understand these are designed for missile interceptions at oblique angles; where the entire “directional warhead” explodes at the same time, sending a cloud of projectiles towards the target (one shot, one kill). This is not what I had in mind.


DW can be programmed in whichever way we want. Single layer or multiple layers, all in single burst or each layer w delayed timmimg or any other way that suits our purpose or as needed.

People have thought abt attempting to shoot a Ballistic missile while descending [as well as ascending] in chase mode. This is one such scenario where interceptor can leverage the situtation to its advantage. But such scenarios will not arise everytime. Second point, the main purpose of attempting interception is to obliterate the warhead or the front section of the missile. And this will not be possible as you put forth by chasing the missile. Except in BPI, where engines are targeted, all other engagements target warhead.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kanson » 08 Oct 2018 21:19

sudeepj wrote:Is the S400 going to be customized with Indian radars? Is there any contribution by DRDO into the deployed systems such as seeker heads etc.? Will the IFF be customized to India?

I am at a loss to understand how we can have an adversarial relationship with China, yet share the same air defense system. Its a bit like buying the F16A back in the 80s or 90s.


One thing that tipped the scale is the deployment of j20 near our border, as i see.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Supratik » 08 Oct 2018 21:40

X-post
Re:espionage
This is bad as propellants are one of the critical technologies in supersonic missiles.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 08 Oct 2018 22:10

Innocent till proven guilty

Head of Hydraulics-Pneumatics and Warhead Integration (Production Department).
Managing a team of 40 Personnel including Systems Engineers, Technical Supervisors and Technicians.
Member of CSR and Technology R&D Group of BrahMos.
Supervising the new projects at BrahMos Nagpur and Pilani Sites.
Systems Engineer
BrahMos Aerospace
July 2013 – December 2016 3 years 6 months
Nagpur Area, India

Department of Hydraulics-Pneumatics and Warhead Integration

https://in.linkedin.com/in/nishant-aggarwal-10760048


Looks like stuff like what warheads are on our Brahmos, i.e. its exact role, plus funda about production numbers etc. Also, hydraulics pneumatics means he'll know structural details about its performance. Not good.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 08 Oct 2018 22:33

LinkedIn must be happy hunting ground for intel agency get their profile if it’s of interest set a honey trap via FB and let the intel flow

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 08 Oct 2018 23:36

Our people have no idea of natsec and happily keep personal ambition over national imperative. From interns gabbing about the project they did at HAL to ex-security forces guys talking about which formation they headed and what exactly they handled.. linkedin is a happy hunting ground for all concerned.
PS: this year MOD released something momentous about our nat-sec achievements. there is an AF guy happily mentioning it on his linkedin profile from several years back. its all a big comedy show.
PPS: ask any university abroad about the happy interns at all our institutions who end up giving away details of whatever programs they worked on for their coveted MS in computer sci/EE etc etc. no NDA, no seriousness in protecting details. personal desire is above all.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 08 Oct 2018 23:44

I have seen person mention SG on linkedin profile!

SG is suppose to the most covert role within our SF community!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 09 Oct 2018 00:13

lol, when these gents are all available to hire as glorified security bosses for IT firms .. forget about natsec.. details leak like a sieve
there is another group of ex SF IRL, scouts to pick up overpriced spares from east europe and hawk it back to navy AF etc. many have made a nice art out of it. they also spend a lot of time running down LCA, Arjun etc. after all, the gravy train shouldn't be threatened.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ashish raval » 09 Oct 2018 02:08

Supratik wrote:X-post
Re:espionage
This is bad as propellants are one of the critical technologies in supersonic missiles.

This is bad. Guess it is time to do through checks and constant vigilance now on everyone involved in critical technologies even PM cannot be barred. No one is above nationhood.

Chinese would happily pay pukes for this dirty work..what kind of individual do this?

Every single line written should be scanned going forward and logged and looked upon by someone in intelligence including public and private phones used by individuals.
Someone working in vital technolgies need to compromise on personal life and that is choice of individual. Cant let this happen. For some reason we have seen this many times now.

Things should be encrypted and chinese walls should be placed on who accesses what data..and strictly on need to know basis.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Amoghvarsha » 09 Oct 2018 02:29

mody wrote:We are going to get 5 squadrons, comprising of 10 firing units.
This is crucial. We will potentially have 10 deployed units and not just 5. We can even have 4 for the eastern border and 6 units for the western.
China has purchased 6 batteries of the S400 system. Don't know if a battery and firing unit are the same or not.
Maybe someone else can clarify.

However, one thing is for sure, there will be more then 5 sites where the S400 will be deployed.
Our Air defence network will have the following components, within the next 3-4 years:

1). Spyder + QRSAM for mobile air defence and last resort defence against planes and cruise missiles. Range upto 20 Kms
2). Akash MK-1 and MK-1S as short to medium range SAMs, primarily for fixed deployment for defending defence installations, like air bases etc. Range max 35 Kms for MK1S. Effective against planes and cruise missiles.
3). MRSAM/Barak-8 as a medium SAM, for fixed deployment for defending defence installations and high value assets. Hopefully in the future, we will get a Akash-MK2 to supplement the Barak-8. Range upto 70 Kms. Effective against planes and cruise missiles.
4). LRSAM/Barak-8-ER. Essentially Barak-8 with a solid rocket booster to enhance range upto 120 Kms. Will be used primarily for targets in the range of 30-120 Kms. Effective against planes and limited capability against SRBM and MRBMs.
5). S400 - LRSAM and Anti Ballistic missile system for SRBM and MRBM systems. Range max upto 400 Kms.
6). 2-Tier BMD consisting of AAD/PDV missiles for taking care of SRBM, MRBM and IRBM upto 2,000 Km range missiles.


Hopefully i live to see this day.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby suryag » 09 Oct 2018 08:40

Sir you will live a long and happy life and see all of this soon.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 09 Oct 2018 08:48

One more item

The new age box of 64 diwali rockets that can handle saturation attacks of bombs and missiles

Iron domeski ? All in mini htk domain

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 09 Oct 2018 09:19

Yes, a true League of Nations SAM inventory :x

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ArjunPandit » 09 Oct 2018 10:51

How do we plan to integrate all these to get tfta images on multiple screens on a panel in Delhi?
Thinking of a scenario where iaf acts as atc for paf

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 09 Oct 2018 10:59

To an extent its already in place at regional commander level

During commander toby rescue we got a pic of unified navy and cg shipping monitor center in delhi

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 09 Oct 2018 11:08

Check the four pix here

https://twitter.com/hq_ids_india/status ... 35266?s=21

Likewise iaf and civilian aai have a combined noc

Civilian atc i believe depends on ac transponders for wide area tracking esp ac transiting over india and airport atc radars have a radius of around 150km . Outside these circles there is no active civilian radar unless a defence radar goes live and it all depends on ppl keeping transponders on and talking to our atc as they enter our adiz boundaries. Silence or erratic moves will result in a iaf scramble alert takeoff esp in north and west

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby arun » 09 Oct 2018 16:48

X Posted.

Rostec who are the parent of Rosoboronexport, press release on the S400 deal:

Rosoboronexport: Contract with India for S-400 Missile Systems – Biggest-ever Deal in Company History

On October 5, 2018, in Delhi Rosoboronexport (part of the Rostec State Corporation) signed a contract to supply India with the S-400 Triumph long-range air defense missile systems (ADMS).

"The S-400 supply agreement with India is a new landmark in the history of military-technical cooperation between our countries. The deal demonstrates the highest level of trust and understanding between India and Russia. I am sure that this agreement will also be a new impulse for strengthening and deepening our cooperation in civil industry." said the Head of Rostec State Corporation Sergey Chemezov.

The main advantage of the S-400 lies in its versatility. The system is able to engage both all types of aerodynamic targets and ballistic missiles, up to intermediate-range ballistic missiles. The Triumph is far superior to its foreign counterparts in maximum engagement range and minimum engagement altitude, emplacement/displacement time, as well as in a number of other key characteristics.

“The contract for the supply of S-400 Triumph air defense missile systems to India is the biggest for the entire period of military-technical cooperation between Russia and India and the largest in history of Rosoboronexport. Today we begin to execute it” said the Head of Rosoboronexport Alexander Mikheev.

Regular meetings between the leaders of Russia and India give strong impetus to the development of relations between the countries and play an important role in expanding and strengthening military-technical cooperation, which has been underway since 1960. Since then, exports of Russian military products to India have exceeded $65 billion.

“Rosoboronexport is ready to cooperate with India in any areas. At the moment, a number of other major contracts for the supply of Russian weapons to India are in the final stages of preparation and we hope they will be signed soon,” Alexander Mikheev said.


From here:

Clicky

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kashi » 09 Oct 2018 17:42

Biggest ever deal? Is it bigger than the Chinese acquisition?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 09 Oct 2018 20:08

Is there offsets in this deal? I have not seen any mention of it anywhere so far!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prithwiraj » 09 Oct 2018 20:39

no.. These are strategic acquisitions --- Does China have something similar ?? They will copy it anyways

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Nitesh » 09 Oct 2018 20:41

Reliance defence was selected as offset partner for this deal in 2015

edit: added link

https://www.indiatoday.in/mail-today/st ... 2018-10-06

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 09 Oct 2018 20:51

Prithwiraj wrote:no.. These are strategic acquisitions --- Does China have something similar ?? They will copy it anyways


How will they copy the algorithms/software part?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 09 Oct 2018 21:01

Katare wrote:Is there offsets in this deal? I have not seen any mention of it anywhere so far!


Not offset for this deal. Cabinet decision. Would have cost us 30% more.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 09 Oct 2018 21:06

Karan M wrote:Innocent till proven guilty

Head of Hydraulics-Pneumatics and Warhead Integration (Production Department).
Managing a team of 40 Personnel including Systems Engineers, Technical Supervisors and Technicians.
Member of CSR and Technology R&D Group of BrahMos.
Supervising the new projects at BrahMos Nagpur and Pilani Sites.
Systems Engineer
BrahMos Aerospace
July 2013 – December 2016 3 years 6 months
Nagpur Area, India

Department of Hydraulics-Pneumatics and Warhead Integration

https://in.linkedin.com/in/nishant-aggarwal-10760048


Looks like stuff like what warheads are on our Brahmos, i.e. its exact role, plus funda about production numbers etc. Also, hydraulics pneumatics means he'll know structural details about its performance. Not good.


Let us also not forget the ISRO Nambi Narayanan case before reaching any conclusion. Enemy agencies like CIA can sabotage/manipulate our suspicions/investigations in ways that are unthinkable.

There should be clear instructions for restricting social media usage by R&D personnel including linkedin. If someone has to switch jobs, there should be a cooling off period of atleast one year before he can post to linkedin/naukri.com. In the meantime he can be shifted to someplace less critical like admin job.

By the I was reading somewhere that CIA was cooperating with ISI on this one. If true that reveals a lot about America's priorities in this part of world.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 09 Oct 2018 21:52

darshhan wrote:
Prithwiraj wrote:no.. These are strategic acquisitions --- Does China have something similar ?? They will copy it anyways


How will they copy the algorithms/software part?

They are never reverse engineered as claimed by Russia, lot of tech was handed to China under the table for lots of $$ (some reports have it is tens of billions of dollars) not reported to the public. Some of the money went back to Russia defense industry others pocketed by Kremlin politicians or for pet projects (see Sochi).

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 09 Oct 2018 22:35

https://twitter.com/vickynanjappa/status/1049506547955453952

This is what I was thinking Pak/Chinis would be after. Not the warhead tech. It is information about the seeker and creating ECM against it, which is what they would want to get their hands on.

Given that we now have our own seeker for Brahmos, DRDO should be able to upgrade it. Moreover, since it has been publicly revealed, Pak/Chinis would be in 2 mind about the value of the information. It may be genuine, it may be fake.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 09 Oct 2018 23:09

nam wrote:
Katare wrote:Is there offsets in this deal? I have not seen any mention of it anywhere so far!


Not offset for this deal. Cabinet decision. Would have cost us 30% more.


Ok, I suspected so.

Although 30% (or even 50%) offset doesn't cost 30% more on procurement, what ever extra it costs, it pays back more than that to govt in increased economic activity and tax revenue. That is the whole purpose of ToT. Not sure how GoI can choose who to force and who to absolve from offset obligations while policy requires all deal over Rs 300 corer should discharge offsets. I can never comprehend much out of the MoD policy on procurement and offset.

I don't think Russians would be able to implement multi billion dollar offset obligations due to smaller size of their economy and companies and closed domestic supply chain for Russian products.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby kit » 09 Oct 2018 23:45

mody wrote:News report claiming leak of Brahmos capability by DRDO employee to paki agents. Don't know how serious it is.


If the Indian intelligence has not gamed this earlier, they have only themselves to blame. It was just a matter of time

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby kit » 09 Oct 2018 23:48

Kashi wrote:Biggest ever deal? Is it bigger than the Chinese acquisition?


as with all Indo Russian arms deals, only some details are public, the S400 looks like a juicy red balloon to mask a bunch of contracts and subcontracts

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby kit » 09 Oct 2018 23:50

abhik wrote:Yes, a true League of Nations SAM inventory :x


just to make things interesting for any enemy SEAD :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 10 Oct 2018 08:45

^^^
In actual combat SAM systems routinely shoot down friendly aircraft. Our league of nations fighter force will have an "interesting" time dealing with our league of nations SAM force I imagine.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Oct 2018 10:48

kit wrote:
Kashi wrote:Biggest ever deal? Is it bigger than the Chinese acquisition?


as with all Indo Russian arms deals, only some details are public, the S400 looks like a juicy red balloon to mask a bunch of contracts and subcontracts

Yes there is definitely some daal mein vodka going on. Russian nomenclature is designed for obfuscation, who knows what is meant by battery, division, regiment, squadron..... My guess is that more things were acquired and not mentioned as mody has alluded to above. There is no reason why it should cost so much more than chini s400.


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