Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Cain Marko
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Oct 2018 10:55

mody wrote:We are going to get 5 squadrons, comprising of 10 firing units.
This is crucial. We will potentially have 10 deployed units and not just 5. We can even have 4 for the eastern border and 6 units for the western.
China has purchased 6 batteries of the S400 system. Don't know if a battery and firing unit are the same or not.
Maybe someone else can clarify.

However, one thing is for sure, there will be more then 5 sites where the S400 will be deployed.
Our Air defence network will have the following components, within the next 3-4 years:

1). Spyder + QRSAM for mobile air defence and last resort defence against planes and cruise missiles. Range upto 20 Kms
2). Akash MK-1 and MK-1S as short to medium range SAMs, primarily for fixed deployment for defending defence installations, like air bases etc. Range max 35 Kms for MK1S. Effective against planes and cruise missiles.
3). MRSAM/Barak-8 as a medium SAM, for fixed deployment for defending defence installations and high value assets. Hopefully in the future, we will get a Akash-MK2 to supplement the Barak-8. Range upto 70 Kms. Effective against planes and cruise missiles.
4). LRSAM/Barak-8-ER. Essentially Barak-8 with a solid rocket booster to enhance range upto 120 Kms. Will be used primarily for targets in the range of 30-120 Kms. Effective against planes and limited capability against SRBM and MRBMs.
5). S400 - LRSAM and Anti Ballistic missile system for SRBM and MRBM systems. Range max upto 400 Kms.
6). 2-Tier BMD consisting of AAD/PDV missiles for taking care of SRBM, MRBM and IRBM upto 2,000 Km range missiles.


Won't the NASAMS 2 fit in there somewhere... Truly India is all about diversity

nam
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 11 Oct 2018 00:33

Was this posted? DRDO tested QRSAM today!

http://www.newindianexpress.com/states/odisha/2018/oct/10/drdo-testfires-quick-reaction-missile-off-odisha-coast-1883553.html

Very peculiar, I did not see any one else reporting this.

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 11 Oct 2018 00:37

nam from its parameters looks like QR-SAM is Trishul resurrected.

So they should call it Markandeya.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Vips » 11 Oct 2018 05:05

BDL receives Rs 200 cr worth order from DRDO for Medium Range Surface to Air Missile.

Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL), a Defence PSU Wednesday said it received order worth Rs 200 crore from State-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) for supply of Medium Range Surface to Air Missile (MR SAM) rear section.

In a press release, BDL said MRSAM is a joint development project between DRDO and Israel Aerospace Industries, Israel with BDL as the Nominated Production Agency.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 11 Oct 2018 13:22

The report mentions that QRSAM has dual pulse motor.. would be interesting to see how it works for short range interception.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby SaiK » 11 Oct 2018 14:40

Is this OT here?

http://www.uniindia.com/drdo-indigenous ... 74340.html

Q - what is the CEP on garuthama?
Last edited by SaiK on 11 Oct 2018 14:49, edited 1 time in total.

jpremnath
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby jpremnath » 11 Oct 2018 14:47

Noob pooch...Is it possible to derive a CCM from QRSAM?...Haven't heard of any WVR missile program after BVR Astra..If so, our aerial missile systems turn full desi...That would be impressive.

nam
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 11 Oct 2018 15:19

jpremnath wrote:Noob pooch...Is it possible to derive a CCM from QRSAM?...Haven't heard of any WVR missile program after BVR Astra..If so, our aerial missile systems turn full desi...That would be impressive.


It is possible, however that would be unnecessary diversion of resources. We have more important areas like XRSAM and hypersonic. DRDO should concentrate on those. CCM are easily available and not the most expensive part of air defence. Once our missile range is matured, countries know we can built one easily, so the cost will be moderated.

DRDO should concentrate on missile which cost us a bomb!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby srin » 11 Oct 2018 18:30

The QRSAM looks like Astra mostly but has two differences that I can see: some kind of small canard near the nose (the pic is pretty low res, so I may be wrong) and smokey propellant.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby jpremnath » 11 Oct 2018 19:47

nam wrote:
jpremnath wrote:Noob pooch...Is it possible to derive a CCM from QRSAM?...Haven't heard of any WVR missile program after BVR Astra..If so, our aerial missile systems turn full desi...That would be impressive.


It is possible, however that would be unnecessary diversion of resources. We have more important areas like XRSAM and hypersonic. DRDO should concentrate on those. CCM are easily available and not the most expensive part of air defence. Once our missile range is matured, countries know we can built one easily, so the cost will be moderated.

DRDO should concentrate on missile which cost us a bomb!


Ok..I was thinking of a replacement of Python for our fighters. Not sure of the actual figure, but doesn't Python go for around 5,00,000 $ a piece.? Considering the number of new fighters we will be inducting 10~15 years down the line, number of pythons might be huge...a desi replacement for Python might be a affordable option considering training shots, and other uses..

jpremnath
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby jpremnath » 11 Oct 2018 19:50

srin wrote:The QRSAM looks like Astra mostly but has two differences that I can see: some kind of small canard near the nose (the pic is pretty low res, so I may be wrong) and smokey propellant.


Wouldn't it have more range if it is a Astra derivative?..maybe I am wrong, I was under impression that we had another Astra based SAM in the making..

Indranil
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Indranil » 11 Oct 2018 21:17

Looks are deceptive.

Astra, NGARM and QRSAM are very different missiles. NGARM has a dual pulse motor which Astra Mk2 is likely to inherit. But currently Astra Mk1 has a single pulse motor.

QRSAM is completely different. It is heavier than the above two and shares next to nothing with them. It requires extremely fast boosting. It is gone before you blink. The criteria for motor design is acceleration and not stealth (smokeless). QRSAM's nozzle is very uniquely-shaped. I could be wrong here, but it is likely to be a composite of four nozzles. The second stage of the missile is likely to be smokeless.

A CCM will likely be based on Astra Mk1 and NAG/SANT. They would likely develop a smaller diameter motor (and length) than Mk1 and marry it to IIR/MMW seeker.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 11 Oct 2018 21:43

nam wrote:
jpremnath wrote:Noob pooch...Is it possible to derive a CCM from QRSAM?...Haven't heard of any WVR missile program after BVR Astra..If so, our aerial missile systems turn full desi...That would be impressive.


It is possible, however that would be unnecessary diversion of resources. We have more important areas like XRSAM and hypersonic. DRDO should concentrate on those. Once our missile range is matured, countries know we can built one easily, so the cost will be moderated.

DRDO should concentrate on missile which cost us a bomb!


CCM dont come cheap and we buy them in the thousands.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 11 Oct 2018 23:30

Sorry, but I did not know where else to post this...

https://twitter.com/iPraksy/status/1050362949855047681 ---> India successfully conducted covert trials of precision guided smart glide bombs- 'Garuthmaa' & 'Garudaa' from IAF SU-30MKI at Pokhran in Jaisalmer on August 17, 2018.

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Sumeet » 11 Oct 2018 23:40

Cain Marko wrote:
mody wrote:We are going to get 5 squadrons, comprising of 10 firing units.
This is crucial. We will potentially have 10 deployed units and not just 5. We can even have 4 for the eastern border and 6 units for the western.
China has purchased 6 batteries of the S400 system. Don't know if a battery and firing unit are the same or not.
Maybe someone else can clarify.

However, one thing is for sure, there will be more then 5 sites where the S400 will be deployed.
Our Air defence network will have the following components, within the next 3-4 years:

1). Spyder + QRSAM for mobile air defence and last resort defence against planes and cruise missiles. Range upto 20 Kms
2). Akash MK-1 and MK-1S as short to medium range SAMs, primarily for fixed deployment for defending defence installations, like air bases etc. Range max 35 Kms for MK1S. Effective against planes and cruise missiles.
3). MRSAM/Barak-8 as a medium SAM, for fixed deployment for defending defence installations and high value assets. Hopefully in the future, we will get a Akash-MK2 to supplement the Barak-8. Range upto 70 Kms. Effective against planes and cruise missiles.
4). LRSAM/Barak-8-ER. Essentially Barak-8 with a solid rocket booster to enhance range upto 120 Kms. Will be used primarily for targets in the range of 30-120 Kms. Effective against planes and limited capability against SRBM and MRBMs.
5). S400 - LRSAM and Anti Ballistic missile system for SRBM and MRBM systems. Range max upto 400 Kms.
6). 2-Tier BMD consisting of AAD/PDV missiles for taking care of SRBM, MRBM and IRBM upto 2,000 Km range missiles.


Won't the NASAMS 2 fit in there somewhere... Truly India is all about diversity


This will be nightmare for enemy RWR/ELINT and ECM systems to deal with so many different types of Radar, Freq, wavelength, bands and techniques employed by each designer.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 11 Oct 2018 23:44

folded wings...
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 11 Oct 2018 23:47

This one has mid body fins....

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 11 Oct 2018 23:58

The non winged version is Garuda, put wings and it becomes Garuthama (what does it mean?)

Image

IDRW- Pictures of things that explode

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 12 Oct 2018 00:03

Many indian news outlets keep showing this picture as DRDO glide bomb, looks pretty lean massa grade design but what is it?

Image

prasannasimha
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 13 Oct 2018 09:40

Garuthmantha or Garuthmaan is another name for Garuda in Sanskrit. Both glide bombs are named after Garuda.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Singha » 13 Oct 2018 11:11

i thought garuda was 40km glider and garuda-amma(mother of garuda) was a bigger winged thing with 100km range. any good pics of the two ?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby abhik » 13 Oct 2018 15:13

I don't think images of 'Garuthmaa'/'Garudaa' have been released, or at least I don't remember seeing one.

Katare wrote:Many indian news outlets keep showing this picture as DRDO glide bomb, looks pretty lean massa grade design but what is it?

https://www.newstrend.news/wp-content/u ... b_test.jpg


Its a laser guided SDB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-39_Small_Diameter_Bomb#GBU-39B/B_%E2%80%93_Laser_SDB

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kanson » 14 Oct 2018 20:53

Katare wrote:Many indian news outlets keep showing this picture as DRDO glide bomb, looks pretty lean massa grade design but what is it?

Image


The body is a Cluster bomb, like CBU-97. It could be a depiction of art where they matted cluster bomb body with glide wings.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 15 Oct 2018 09:43

Garuda is the non winged and Garuthma is the winged PGM

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Lisa » 15 Oct 2018 19:47

nits wrote:
5 should be able to cover both borders...


So if we pay for 2-3 in Afghanistan, pukistan can be covered and overlapped from both sides, correct?
Last edited by JayS on 15 Oct 2018 20:31, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Image removed from quoted post.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Trikaal » 16 Oct 2018 03:26

Lisa wrote:
So if we pay for 2-3 in Afghanistan, pukistan can be covered and overlapped from both sides, correct?

S-400 is a defensive not an offensive system. I doubt it will even work at all in chase mode, especially when the launced missile/aircraft have a headstart of a 100+km. So covering them from behind will yield no benefits, unless we are worried about the safety of Afghans.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Katare » 16 Oct 2018 04:02

As per what I understand from various open sources is that In tail chase mode the range gets reduced to a forth (more of a rule of thumb than exact) of head on range. So a 400KM range missile could claim that it has 100KM of no escape zone. Beyond that the aircraft has high probability to escape. So if we put one of the S400 unit real close to the boarder in Pakistan entire Sargodha airbase would be well within the no escape zone. That's your game changer!!!

There are other smaller factors that increase or decrease the no escape zone like boost, speed, throttling and G loading to name a few.

These numbers are usually for the high altitude engagement, at lower altitude the range gets reduced even further.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby mody » 16 Oct 2018 13:38

What kind of guidance does Garuda and Garuthma have? Is it only satellite guidance or do they have any other form of guidance as well?
If it is satellite guidance, is it using our Navic system or GPS/GLONASS combo?

Do we have a follow up program to the Sudarshan for laser guidance kit for HSLD bombs or we are happy to use Griffin-III kits and not pursue our own program?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kakarat » 16 Oct 2018 15:03

Sudarshan LGB and laser guidance kit for HSLD bombs are two different projects

Sudarshan LGB is LGB kit for Indian 1000lb dumb bombs
Image

laser guidance kit for HSLD is called PGHSLD
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby sudhan » 16 Oct 2018 16:58

The DRDO SAAW is also very similar to the SDB, specialized for anti-runway duties..

Image

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 16 Oct 2018 22:28

mody, Sudarshan program was terminated as it was a dud.
If you recall the drop videos the test article used to drop tail first and roll.
All that would use up energy and not have enough left over to hit the target.
The CCIP method of release would give same level of accuracy (CEP ~ 11m) as the dud.
Unfortunate the DRDO gave such a powerful name to a dud system.
However it lead to IAf purchase of Griffin and ARDE developing the PG HSLD.

I don't know whats the plan for the 1000 MC bombs in IAF inventory.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Thakur_B » 17 Oct 2018 07:04

^^ They tried to fix the roll issues by adding a free rotating tail to sudarshan, but that didn't work out either.

ramana
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2018 21:45

Tell me how will that work!
The body rotates due to aerodynamic forces acting laterally.
They fins have to be sized need to counter the rotation.

Making the laser guided 1000MC bomb, which is the cheapest and most abundant in IAF inventory, waas the right decision. But execution was not good.
We know that Paveway II of which Sudarshan has features from was successful.
So what was different?
Physical dimension would be the easy part.
Maybe the avionics control package was difficult.
Anyway they have the HSLD.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 17 Oct 2018 21:46

Wonder how guided Pinaka was achieved with controlled canards.
Same idea should work.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 18 Oct 2018 10:57

The roll/tumble issue has been sorted out and it has undergone trials with a CEP of 10 m.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 18 Oct 2018 11:12

Sometimes reverse engineering does not work. DRDO tried reverse engineering known design in Sudarshan but fail to make it work. There after they went for a new design and hopefully it is working.

For instance, in Lakshya UAV DRDO could not get the recovery as the parachute would not open properly. The solution was simple. Instead of having a single parachute, to first have a small parachute which will pull the mail recovery parachute open but it took them almost 5 years & dozen failed attemptsto figure it out.

So it happens. Not a big deal.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 18 Oct 2018 21:14

prasannasimha wrote:The roll/tumble issue has been sorted out and it has undergone trials with a CEP of 10 m.


Even upgraded Mig 27s with new electronics were getting 11m with dumb bombs.
So laser guided 10 m CEP is not an achievement.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 18 Oct 2018 21:15

Gyan, That small parachute to pull the main parachute is called drogue and technology was open source for decades.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby prasannasimha » 18 Oct 2018 21:54

At what distance ? This was drop and glide to > 9 KM Not just a bomb drop

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Gyan » 19 Oct 2018 00:57

ramana wrote:Gyan, That small parachute to pull the main parachute is called drogue and technology was open source for decades.


I am also not saying that it was any major breakthrough. It is just that DRDO got stuck for a few years on a small issue, to make the point that these things happen till we are able to build up institutional memory spanning 3 generations.


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