Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

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Prem Kumar
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Nov 2018 17:35

Shiv Aroor just read the Tech Focus article by DRDO that someone in this forum pointed to (including page numbers of MANPATGM details), copy-pasted a few paragraphs from it .....and voila!....we have a new blogpost.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Viv S » 23 Nov 2018 17:49

India’s VSHORAD program off flight path - By Saurabh Joshi

Background

In June of 1999, as the Kargil War raged in India’s Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian defence ministry initiated a case to acquire the Russian Igla-S air defence system to replace the Igla-M system, then already in service in India.

A Very Short Range Air Defence (VSHORAD) system allows forces on land to target low flying manned or unmanned aircraft. There are two major differences among the types of VSHORAD systems available today. Their guidance system employs either heat-seeking infra red seekers or works on laser guidance.

At the time, the Russian system was the only one under consideration. In 2002, Russia’s agency for arms exports, Rosoboronexport said the development of the new Igla-S system had been completed and in 2004, the Indian defence ministry’s Defence Procurement Board (DPB) recommended the procurement on a single vendor basis, for what was now considered a tri-service requirement. The following year, a Request For Proposal (RFP) was issued to Rosoboronexport.

But two years later, in 2007, the RFP was retracted because the Russians failed to show up with the Igla-S system for trials in India.

India’s defence ministry decided to try again three years later, in January 2010, and issued a global Request For Information (RFI), soliciting data on VSHORAD systems for a new acquisition process.

11 years had passed since the process was first initiated to replace the Igla-M system and the Indian armed forces were no closer to induction of the new kit.

Take 02

Still, this time the process moved a little quicker and in September 2010, a new Request For Proposal (RFP) was issued, beginning a new acquisition process through global multi-vendor competitive tendering, for an order worth INR 27,000 crores or USD 3.66 billion (Current Rate USD 01 = INR 73.57).

Four systems managed to clear the Technical Evaluation Committee’s (TEC) scrutiny in January 2012.

MBDA Mistral
Saab RBS-70
ROE Igla-S
LIG Nex1 Chiron

The last system, the South Korean LIG Nex1 Chiron, did not show up for trials and was eliminated. The Thales Starstreak had already been eliminated for inability to show compliance at the paper evaluation stage.

This left three contestants: French, Swedish and Russian.

Trials

In May 2012, trials for the three systems began in India.

Multiple rounds of trials were held until 2017. Each vendor was required to show compliance of their system with the physical and operational requirements of the RFP – except, as it became apparent, the Russians.

In the summer trials held at the Mahajan range in India in 2012, all three systems were required to demonstrate the ability of low-level short-range firing at targets at a height of 10 metres and at a distance of 500 metres. Both missiles fired from the Igla-S ended up in the dirt.

Successful summer targeting in the daytime summer desert at low altitudes is especially difficult for systems guided by infra red seekers. This is why the Igla-S managed a hit in December, because of significantly lower ambient temperatures.

Then in 2013, during trials in Leh, the Russians were allowed to change the complete sighting system on their Igla-S demonstrator — something questionable since only in situ repairs are allowed during trials.

Meanwhile, the official service life of the Igla-M systems in service in the Indian Army came to an end in 2013, leaving them no longer safe to operate anymore. These systems were acquired in the late eighties and mid-nineties and have a service life of seven years. Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) has since attempted to extend the service life of these systems with mixed results and there continue to be concerns about the safety of these systems in operation. Only a few thousand remain in the inventory of the Indian Army. In fact, Russia began replacing the Igla-S systems in its inventory with a newer system called the Verba in 2014.

In 2014, the Russians were required to contest in summer trials and fire the Igla-S, again. Once again, they simply did not show up.

A few months later, they were due for trials at Visakhapatnam (you know where this is going). And again, they were conspicuous by their absence.

They finally appeared for the summer trials held at Pokhran in 2017. Fortunately for them, this time there was no requirement for them to fire. They were only required to demonstrate their tracking ability. Out of 48 attempts allowed to them, they succeeded only 16 times, failing to track even targets as large as a fighter aircraft or an Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) without flares.


All of this notwithstanding, the Russian bid had a charmed life. No failure during the trials was too great to allow them to stay in the contest. No absence from any stage of the trials was too significant for them to be disqualified. No transgression of the rules of the trials was enough for their bid to be thrown out.

Commercial Bids

In January 2018, the Russians, along with the French and the Swedes were declared technically compliant. And in May 2018, when the commercial bids were opened, the Russian bid was found to be, apparently, the lowest.

A system that had never been able to successfully prosecute a target under the summer sun in the deserts of Rajasthan had been declared compliant by the defence ministry and then discovered to be, seemingly, the cheapest.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 23 Nov 2018 18:21

When was stratpost Saurabh Joshi became a reliable site to quote , he is not giving any reliable information but just quoting his opinion

Any dimwit can write such stuff , some one posted a video last page stating all systems failed summer trials so every one is just passing opinion as facts

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Will » 23 Nov 2018 18:26

Looks like the cancellation of another tender in the making. Why don’t they just go down the govt-govt route. This tendering business has been the bane of Indian defence procurement for ages.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby JTull » 23 Nov 2018 19:03

Seems, from Saurabh Joshi article, Igla-S needs a desi guidance package!

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby A Deshmukh » 23 Nov 2018 19:29

Austin wrote:When was stratpost Saurabh Joshi became a reliable site to quote , he is not giving any reliable information but just quoting his opinion
Any dimwit can write such stuff , some one posted a video last page stating all systems failed summer trials so every one is just passing opinion as facts

There is a blind faith and then there is a blind reject.

There is enough material to believe there are or were problems with Igla-S.
If you want to reject all these bits of info, so be it.

I only hope that past issues with Igla-S are resolved, before they place any firm order.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Vips » 23 Nov 2018 20:33

Any sane person would think that you do not buy anything that has failed its purpose and here we are buying a system which will be the last point of defence against the enemy jets.

The opposition parties will get a fantastic claim to say corruption being committed in buying a failed system. Russians assurance or claims that they will resolve the issues/problems should simply not be a factor in placing the order.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 24 Nov 2018 02:16

Vips wrote:Any sane person would think that you do not buy anything that has failed its purpose and here we are buying a system which will be the last point of defence against the enemy jets.

The opposition parties will get a fantastic claim to say corruption being committed in buying a failed system. Russians assurance or claims that they will resolve the issues/problems should simply not be a factor in placing the order.


How can the Russians fix anything regarding the missile guidance the missile has been replaced and devolopment has stopped.? I don't imagine them even replacing the sights.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 24 Nov 2018 02:30

JTull wrote:Seems, from Saurabh Joshi article, Igla-S needs a desi guidance package!


To bacha kya Manpad banane ke liye.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Rakesh » 24 Nov 2018 09:00

darshhan wrote:
JTull wrote:Seems, from Saurabh Joshi article, Igla-S needs a desi guidance package!


To bacha kya Manpad banane ke liye.

+108!!

:D

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 24 Nov 2018 09:56

A Deshmukh wrote:
Austin wrote:When was stratpost Saurabh Joshi became a reliable site to quote , he is not giving any reliable information but just quoting his opinion
Any dimwit can write such stuff , some one posted a video last page stating all systems failed summer trials so every one is just passing opinion as facts

There is a blind faith and then there is a blind reject.

There is enough material to believe there are or were problems with Igla-S.
If you want to reject all these bits of info, so be it.

I only hope that past issues with Igla-S are resolved, before they place any firm order.


Igla-S is used by dozens of country and india is not the first buyer or user of it.

Stating things like IA or MOD fudged the result just based on hearsay is the same like we hear for Rafale or other deal , it’s makes MOD look like bunch of thief all interested in fudging result and puts Indian armed forces under doubt specially when the present government has a very competent mod

Such loose talks doesn’t add any thing to quality of discussion we have at BRF or contribute to any knowledge

MOD had instituted a committee to look into claims of all the vendors before it selected igla system so every one got a fair chance and mod too had its own

MOD will now be extra careful these days specially when you have the likes of a Rafale deal being used against it

I hope the mods out here take note of this
Last edited by Austin on 24 Nov 2018 09:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 24 Nov 2018 09:59

10m height and 500m.range!
What size target?
Seems quite odd requirement.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 24 Nov 2018 10:01

ramana wrote:10m height and 500m.range!
What size target?
Seems quite odd requirement.


Could be any thing from cruise missile in terminal phase to small drones , specially in Kashmir region small drones are used by paki and terrorist

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby ramana » 24 Nov 2018 10:45

At that height and range it's better to use machine gun.

Using SAM is not cost effective.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 24 Nov 2018 11:27

ramana wrote:At that height and range it's better to use machine gun.

Using SAM is not cost effective.


If your target is a cruise missile like tomahawk type approaching low and fast then either as approaching or receding target you are better off using vshord for high sskp , even cross targeting of cruise missile can be done effectively , the logistics of gun and foot print with guided gun including manpower is quite large effective against fixed locations only , vshord offers far greater mobility with thin logistics

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 24 Nov 2018 11:45

Austin wrote:
ramana wrote:At that height and range it's better to use machine gun.

Using SAM is not cost effective.


If your target is a cruise missile like tomahawk type approaching low and fast then either as approaching or receding target you are better off using vshord for high sskp , even cross targeting of cruise missile can be done effectively , the logistics of gun and foot print with guided gun including manpower is quite large effective against fixed locations only , vshord offers far greater mobility with thin logistics


And greater profitability for Russian agencies too (in this case)

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Viv S » 24 Nov 2018 14:50

Air defence missile contract embroiled in vendor protests
By Ajai Shukla
Business Standard, 24th Nov 18

With Swedish arms giant, Saab, shooting off four protest letters to the ministry of defence (MoD) over its handling of the tender for the “very short range air defence system” (VSHORADS), the difficulties in conducting competitive, multi-vendor procurement have again been underlined.

On Monday, the ministry of defence (MoD) announced the results of an eight-year-old tender for anti-aircraft missiles, informing all three competing vendors that it had selected Russia’s Igla-S missile for the army, navy and Indian Air Force (IAF).

On the face of it, the Igla-S seemed a clear winner in the VSHORADS tender. Russia’s export agency, Rosoboronexport (ROE) bid $1.5 billion for 5,175 missiles and 800 launchers – well below the “benchmark price” of $2 billion, which is the MoD’s internal assessment of what should be a fair bid. Sweden’s Saab had bid $2.6 billion, while French firm, MBDA, quoted $3.7 billion.

But Saab’s protest letters, say MoD sources, level multiple allegations about the army’s conduct of multiple rounds of user evaluation trials. They say the Defence Procurement Policy of 2008 (DPP-2008) was violated multiple times to favour ROE.

In summer trials conducted in 2012 in the blazing Rajasthan deserts, the Igla-S scored just one hit out of four missiles fired, say Saab and MBDA. In navy trials conducted in the Bay of Bengal that year, the Igla-S fired two missiles, out of which only one struck the target. That total of two hits out of six was well below the minimum required accuracy of four hits out of six.

“Accordingly, ROE has not fulfilled the performance in accordance with the Indian armed forces stated requirements…” says the Saab complaint.

Saab writes that, from May 2014 onwards, the trial methodology was changed to benefit ROE. Instead of requiring to shoot down a target with a missile, it was enough for a missile pilot to successfully track the target from his control panel.

In contrast, Saab’s RBS-70 and MBDA’s Mistral systems are both learned to have met the firing requirements, scoring above four hits out of six.

VSHORADS are the soldier’s last line of defence against enemy combat aircraft. At the highest level, the IAF is responsible for air defence. It discharges this role by bombing enemy airfields to destroy combat aircraft on the ground and damage runways so that they cannot take off. IAF radars pick up enemy aircraft entering our airspace and then shoot those down with its fighters and long-and-medium-range ground-to-air missiles. Yet some enemy aircraft could get through, and VSHORADS provides ground troops and warships a weapon of last resort.

Saab has also complained that the Igla-S failed to even turn up for summer trials on July 28, 2014. DPP-2008 stipulates automatic and immediate disqualification for a vendor that absents himself from a trial. But ROE was allowed to continue.

A trial team member says it was always going to be difficult for the Igla-S to meet the qualifying standards. That is because it has an infrared homing seeker, which locks onto a heat source and guides the missile there. In desert summers, the high ambient temperature of the sand confuses infrared seekers, diverting missiles into the ground.

The RBS-70 and Mistral missiles do not have infrared seekers. Instead, the missile operator shoots a laser beam at the target and a “beam riding” missile follows the laser beam. Standard decoys like flares and chaff can lure away an infrared seeker missile, but not a laser beam-riding one.

The Igla-S system, say army air defence experts, has been junked by even the Russian army, which has switched over to the 9K333 Verba. This is a fourth-generation missile that is the equal of the RBS-70 and the Mistral.

However, ROE did not offer the Verba, which was some way from completion when the MoD floated the current tender in 2010. According to one report, ROE requested permission to switch from the Igla-S to the Verba, but was told this was not permitted by the DPP.

Contacted for comments, ROE declined to comment on the VSHORADS tender but noted that the Igla-S is in high demand amongst customers around the globe.

The MoD has replied to two of Saab’s four letters, declaring that everything had been done according to procedure. On October 24, the ministry wrote the “case has progressed as per provisions of Defence Procurement Procedure with level playing field to all the participating vendors.”

The defence ministry did not respond to a request for comments.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 24 Nov 2018 17:17

And why exactly should be bother about vendor protest? It is our money, we decide to give to anyone we like.

It is for IA for argue, if the product satisfies their needs.

We are very touched by vendor's concern about defence our nation and all..

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 24 Nov 2018 17:20

The RBS-70 and Mistral missiles do not have infrared seekers. Instead, the missile operator shoots a laser beam at the target and a “beam riding” missile follows the laser beam. Standard decoys like flares and chaff can lure away an infrared seeker missile, but not a laser beam-riding one.


A perfect example of telling half truths..what happens when the operator is not able to keep the beam on the target? or weather effects the beam or choppers come up with with tank style smoke screen?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 24 Nov 2018 17:23

Shukla should have googled. Mistral is IR guided.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 24 Nov 2018 17:30

It is a sales pitch. One of the reason, I will hold my breath for more information to come out.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Aditya_V » 24 Nov 2018 17:50

Another problem with beam rider is the operator has to physically follow the fast moving target and also make sure he is exposed to target. Similar system like blowpipe etc have been failures. Mistrial performance won't be much better but much more costlier

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Viv S » 24 Nov 2018 19:27

nam wrote:And why exactly should be bother about vendor protest? It is our money, we decide to give to anyone we like.

Well, the cost of participating in any competition is borne by the vendors. That includes administrative & logistics costs as well as the cost of expended equipment.

Given that SAAB & MBDA have expended about 8-12 missiles in four firing trials, that's a direct expenditure of maybe $1-2 million. The MoD will not reimburse them for that. That investment is made in good faith with the understanding that they will be assessed on a level playing field and judged on their merits.

We can of course give the deal to whoever we like, but if we've decided that the Russians are to get it, then we ought to do a G2G deal and award the contract directly, rather than inviting other OEMs to meet technical benchmarks that are repeatedly watered down for one participant.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Picklu » 24 Nov 2018 20:16

I have no doubt that Ruskies are doing a clearance sell of their Igla-S stock as well as manufacturing machinery while moving on to Verba

We will end up holding a EOL product.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 24 Nov 2018 20:25

That investment is made in good faith with the understanding that they will be assessed on a level playing field and judged on their merits.


Good faith and level playing in arms deals? If that is what these vendors are expecting, they should quit arms business. Hope they remember what happened to the US Airforce tanker deal with Airbus?

The article from Mr.Shukla seem to be indicate quite a bit of "good faith" been put on him to tell us how the vendors are quite pained to see Indian national defence being compromised.

If the vendors don't like our process and don't want to take the risks, they should not participate. Saves us the false tears.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Viv S » 24 Nov 2018 21:14

Aditya_V wrote:Another problem with beam rider is the operator has to physically follow the fast moving target and also make sure he is exposed to target. Similar system like blowpipe etc have been failures. Mistrial performance won't be much better but much more costlier

The Blowpipe was actually a manually steered (MCLOS) missile while the RBS-70 is a semi-automatic (SACLOS) system.

While its not fire-and-forget like the Mistral or Igla-S, it is a lot more reliable, especially in hot conditions. Shooter exposure isn't that serious a concern considering that the time taken from tracking-to-impact over a km away is less than 5 secs.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Viv S » 24 Nov 2018 21:23

nam wrote:Good faith and level playing in arms deals? If that is what these vendors are expecting, they should quit arms business. Hope they remember what happened to the US Airforce tanker deal with Airbus?

The article from Mr.Shukla seem to be indicate quite a bit of "good faith" been put on him to tell us how the vendors are quite pained to see Indian national defence being compromised.

If the vendors don't like our process and don't want to take the risks, they should not participate. Saves us the false tears.

Business being business, Saab & MBDA should have expected a tilted playing field? Well then one can't really blame Saab & MBDA trying to kill the deal by putting up formal protests and disclosures to the media, possibly expanding that to legal challenges via the judiciary. That too is presumably part of the game. The vendors aren't pained about Indian defence being compromised, their participation was driven by a business case, and their protests are driven by a business case.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby nam » 24 Nov 2018 21:34

Viv S wrote:You mean business being business, Saab & MBDA should have expected a tilted playing field? Well then one can't really blame Saab & MBDA trying to kill the deal by putting up formal protests and disclosures to the media, possibly expanding that to legal challenges via the judiciary. That too is presumably part of the game. The vendors aren't pained about Indian defence being compromised, their participation was driven by a business case, and their protests are driven by a business case.


Sure, they can. They can take on GoI in court, which is going to drag on for decades. Do they expect GoI to hand over the deal to them if they win the court? How will they prove Igla-S failed? By saying "they saw it fail" or Shukla's article?

Which defense deal/ trail have ever been decided in the court? RFP by default cannot be challenged in the court, because it is not a contract. It is very regular in civilian business RFP are issued to get a better deal from the incumbent. Companies make a pony show through RFP, before renewing existing contract.

Meanwhile as the case drags on, no RFP will be issued to these vendors for any deal by GoI.

Good luck to them.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Viv S » 24 Nov 2018 21:52

nam wrote:Sure, they can. They can take on GoI in court, which is going to drag on for decades. Do they expect GoI to hand over the deal to them if they win the court? How will they prove Igla-S failed? By saying "they saw it fail" or Shukla's article?

Which defense deal/ trail have ever been decided in the court? Arm deal RFP by default cannot be cancelled in the court, because it is not a contract.

Meanwhile the case drags on, no RFP will be issued to these vendors for any deal by GoI.

Good luck to them.

Depends on whether the Igla did fail trials. If Shukla, Aroor & Joshi are right and it did, that'll be reflected in the trial reports and presumably in the waivers granted.

Not that they'll try to pursue a case to completion anyway, the objective will be to raise enough question marks to get the MoD to issue a re-tender, probably with ROE entering the more expensive (and hopefully technically compliant) Verba into the mix.

Cases don't get decided in court but RFPs are reissued all the time. The MoD could, in theory, retaliate by freezing Saab out of other contracts but it rarely does, and I don't think Saab's up for any major deal anyway (the Gripen's prospect are nearly non-existent). Given the size of the deal, the cost-benefit equation certain favours a blocking action, for now.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Haridas » 24 Nov 2018 23:30

Picklu wrote:I have no doubt that Ruskies are doing a clearance sell of their Igla-S stock as well as manufacturing machinery while moving on to Verba

We will end up holding a EOL product.

What is the problem ? You get what you asked for, in a competitive bid ! Now its to the credit of MOD that it took 8 yrs or 30 years to finalize the bid :) . EOL is good for both parties isn't it? 1.5 B $ is good price, is the problem that MOD will have $700M to spare? :roll:

When GOI was legitimate to take over defunct Mikoyan corp for the money india paid for MIG29K, but it didn't. Now the desire that near EOL Igla_S shoul be given FREE to india! :twisted:

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Neshant » 25 Nov 2018 02:15

Rules changing midway, missiles not striking targets, foreign arms producer themselves not wanting the stuff they are exporting, yet it gets approved for purchase by India.

Is the decommissioned stock from the Russian army about to land up in the Indian inventory.

Any dealing with the Indian govt seem to end in chaos.

No wonder no local arms producer has emerged.


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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 25 Nov 2018 06:16

Viv S wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:Another problem with beam rider is the operator has to physically follow the fast moving target and also make sure he is exposed to target. Similar system like blowpipe etc have been failures. Mistrial performance won't be much better but much more costlier

The Blowpipe was actually a manually steered (MCLOS) missile while the RBS-70 is a semi-automatic (SACLOS) system.

While its not fire-and-forget like the Mistral or Igla-S, it is a lot more reliable, especially in hot conditions. Shooter exposure isn't that serious a concern considering that the time taken from tracking-to-impact over a km away is less than 5 secs.


RBS-70

Not as impressive in the real world. I remember a TSP RBS-70 taking shots at an IAF MiG-29, and missing. This was after Kargil when it was escorting an AN-32 with journos to inspect the Atlantique wreckage.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Kartik » 25 Nov 2018 07:13

Wasn’t it RBS-70s fired at an Mi-17 that went to examine the Atlantique wreckage.


An Indian Air Force Mi-17 helicopter carring journalists returns to base after surviving a Pakistani missile attack in the Rann of Kutch near the India-Pakistan border August 11. The helicopter was attacked by a shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile during a mission to show journalists the wreckage of a Pakistani aircraft downed by Indian fighters on August 10.


link

Needless to say, the RBS-70 failed in a real world scenario

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby John » 25 Nov 2018 07:25

Igla-S are quite frequently used by various Syrian rebels with mixed success.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Karan M » 25 Nov 2018 09:55

Kartik wrote:Wasn’t it RBS-70s fired at an Mi-17 that went to examine the Atlantique wreckage.


An Indian Air Force Mi-17 helicopter carring journalists returns to base after surviving a Pakistani missile attack in the Rann of Kutch near the India-Pakistan border August 11. The helicopter was attacked by a shoulder-fired surface-to-air missile during a mission to show journalists the wreckage of a Pakistani aircraft downed by Indian fighters on August 10.


link

Needless to say, the RBS-70 failed in a real world scenario


Yes same incident. Mi-17 not An-32 and the RBS-70 was fired at the escort MiG-29 which maneuvered away from the threat.

Pratyush
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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Pratyush » 25 Nov 2018 11:05

John wrote:Igla-S are quite frequently used by various Syrian rebels with mixed success.


Well a MANPAD has a very limited range and almost no ability to reacquire a target if missed in first intercept attempt.

That being the case when used within its engagement envelope, it will more often than not kill it's target.

So no big deal.

PS are we interested in acquiring the technology for the seaker of the missile?

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby Austin » 25 Nov 2018 12:03

All depends on the training of MANPAD operator , If the tracking is good and tone of Missile acquiring the target is good for few seconds then most manpads will kill , Many Johadis will launch Manpads even with mildtone or target improperly acquired in haste fire and duck , in such case they are lucky to have hit. Igla has algorithm to hit the most vulnerable part of target like it happened with Turkish military chopper where inspite of flares it hit the main rotor

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 25 Nov 2018 13:06

Another point to note. Mistral and Saab's version are both much costlier than igla s. For the same amount you can have almost 2x iglas than if you go for mistral or saab. Now the question becomes " Is one Rbs70/mistral better than 2 igla s ? ".

I doubt if the answer would be affirmative.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 25 Nov 2018 13:13

John wrote:Igla-S are quite frequently used by various Syrian rebels with mixed success.


Mixed success is more than enough to force a change in standard helicopter and transport aircraft tactics for most of the time. Forget actual firing of a manpad, even the knowledge that opfor in a particular sector has access to a manpad will force the chopper crews to change their tactics. I am not even talking here about stingers or iglas which are of recent vintage. A second gen Sa-7 is more than enough for this task.

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Re: Indian Missiles News & Discussions - May 2017

Postby darshhan » 25 Nov 2018 13:18

Neshant wrote:
Is the decommissioned stock from the Russian army about to land up in the Indian inventory.



Worth more than a gold mine for Baloch freedom fighters. If only Mother Russia agrees to supply to Balochi fighters.


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